TF Views

Downtime without stories would obviously be problematic for DC, but they could still make money on the licensing for their characters. Which, if they keep going they way they're going they might wind up in that situation anyway if they can't manage to sell comic books anymore. Yeah, they sort of tried the reboot route with New 52, buuuuuuut the problem with that is that it wasn't the iconic version of those characters and everything is still technically a continuation of the story of the DCU, which is just a huge convoluted mess. What I was suggesting is what I think they were trying with their "All Star" series a while back where they just started new books with the iconic characters. The problem there is that when DC decided on their next DCU reorganization, everything got all mashed together again. Personally, I'd like to see them just end all of their current titles and just decide to restart everything from scratch (yeah, I know, 52, but like I said, that was still part of the continanity problem, where as this wouldn't because everything would be starting from scratch). They wouldn't need to have an annual big convoluted mess of an event to once again try to make sense of universes that were never meant to exist together. They could actually just get back to telling good stories with interesting characters. Also, I think they should just go back to one shots for a while. Actually just let the characters be themselves in smaller stories before trying to go back to telling epic over reaching arcs with them.

Actually, I think that might be another reason why some casual fans don't read comics: You rarely get comics with stories where the characters just get to "be" those characters. I might actually read a Superman book if I could just read a few stand alone issues where he's just fighting crime. Regular, actual street level crime. Honestly, that's one of the reasons why the 1978 Superman movie is a much better film than Man of Steel. You actually get several scenes of Superman just being Superman and enjoying it. It was fun, where Man of Steel wasn't. And it would be great to see that kind of fun in the comics too.

Flipped through the "Rebirth" preview book. The only thing that really grabbed my interest is the Tom King "Batman" series. It does not list any information (beyond a shipping date for "Earth 2") about the JSA or "Earth 2".

Downtime without stories would obviously be problematic for DC, but they could still make money on the licensing for their characters.

This could work actually. In theory, DC could gamble and pitch to newer readers with stuff that ties in specifically with media. But, that would guarantee the old readers would bail.

As a compliment to this, DC could release reprints of iconic and foundational content. These could also appeal to older readers if they had significant back-matter (script notes, creator interviews and such). But, this could prove risky as well.

Shockwave wrote:Yeah, they sort of tried the reboot route with New 52, buuuuuuut the problem with that is that it wasn't the iconic version of those characters and everything is still technically a continuation of the story of the DCU, which is just a huge convoluted mess. What I was suggesting is what I think they were trying with their "All Star" series a while back where they just started new books with the iconic characters.

But if you restart everything from scratch, that isn't going to be the iconic version of the characters. It's just going to be a new version of those characters all over again. Modeled after the iconic version perhaps, but still, a different version in itself. The "All Star" series I think of as it's own thing, not as an iconic version of those characters, especially with how hilariously over the top Miller wrote the characters in All Star Batman and Robin in-particular.

Honestly, that's one of the reasons why the 1978 Superman movie is a much better film than Man of Steel. You actually get several scenes of Superman just being Superman and enjoying it. It was fun, where Man of Steel wasn't. And it would be great to see that kind of fun in the comics too.

To each their own, but to me, seeing Superman running around saving cats from trees is not what I want to see in a super hero movie... Man of Steel had it's faults but honestly I think it was the better film because I've always found the 1978 film kinda boring.

The saving cats and such can work, if it is part of a larger point. (It would demonstrate that Superman has benign intent, despite his terrifying power.) But, the writer/producer needs to have a larger point beyond "Superman is really really nice".

But if you restart everything from scratch, that isn't going to be the iconic version of the characters. It's just going to be a new version of those characters all over again. Modeled after the iconic version perhaps, but still, a different version in itself. The "All Star" series I think of as it's own thing, not as an iconic version of those characters, especially with how hilariously over the top Miller wrote the characters in All Star Batman and Robin in-particular.

I think what Shock means is "set the characters back to spec". This could be what the characters were when they first launched. Or, it could be a later but more iconic iteratioin (such Iron Man circa 1980). The reset would be visuals, but also status quo (to stasis quo). He is not saying he wants a Superman (or Spider-Man or an Optimus Prime or whatever) with all of the history of the/an old iteration of the character. He is saying make the new one "sort of like" the old one.

Dominic wrote:The saving cats and such can work, if it is part of a larger point. (It would demonstrate that Superman has benign intent, despite his terrifying power.) But, the writer/producer needs to have a larger point beyond "Superman is really really nice".

But if you restart everything from scratch, that isn't going to be the iconic version of the characters. It's just going to be a new version of those characters all over again. Modeled after the iconic version perhaps, but still, a different version in itself. The "All Star" series I think of as it's own thing, not as an iconic version of those characters, especially with how hilariously over the top Miller wrote the characters in All Star Batman and Robin in-particular.

I think what Shock means is "set the characters back to spec". This could be what the characters were when they first launched. Or, it could be a later but more iconic iteratioin (such Iron Man circa 1980). The reset would be visuals, but also status quo (to stasis quo). He is not saying he wants a Superman (or Spider-Man or an Optimus Prime or whatever) with all of the history of the/an old iteration of the character. He is saying make the new one "sort of like" the old one.

The cat thing was part of a larger montage sequence that did exactly that, made a larger point. That point was that Superman was discovering the various good that he could with his powers and that he enjoyed discovering that. It gave the movie a feeling of fun and wonder and amazement and that's largely what made it such a great Superman movie. And that's everything that is absolutely absent from Man of Steel and why MoS just feels like the Dark Knight with SuperBatman. It just doesn't work for me. Superman is not dark and brooding and a Superman movie should not feel dark and brooding.

Exactly. We all know Superman's iconic look (Hint: It's not the Man of Steel costume). The red cape, the blue tights, red underpants and boots... yeah, that's the iconic look of Superman. DC could do an entire reboot of their DCU, they could keep the iconic look and feel of the characters but start them brand new completely shorn of any established nearly 100 years worth of backstory because they would be creating new back stories. As for if the characterization is the iconic one or not would largely be carried on the writing and to some extent the art, but my point is it could, and quite frankly should, be done. Old fans have the iconography that they can attach to and new fans don't have decades worth of baggage to wonder about.

I dunno, I heard it said once that Superman, Batman and Spiderman all suffer from the same thing and that's it that 75% of their fan bases don't read comics. It seems to me that there should be an easy way for DC and Marvel to solve that problem and get people who are already fans of their characters to start reading the source material for the thing they're a fan of. The other thing that starting from scratch would do for DC is allow them to quit feeling like they have to have the stupid annual cosmic reboot to try to make sense of all the random crap they've accumulated over the years and just tell good stories. Heck, if they still wanted to annual events, they could and they could actually make them you know, interesting and GOOD stories because they wouldn't have to keep trying to make sense of a continuity that at this point is never going to make sense. Now, I know DC is not going to do this, unless they're forced to, but it's just a speculation on my part for what they could do to increase sales and over all interest.

I don't think either DC or Marvel can start from scratch without losing most of their audience. Especially today when it's so easy to read so much of the older material featuring any given character. To me, any given DC or Marvel character is more than a name, a costume, and a set of powers. It's the stories, the continuity and relationships with supporting characters that make them who they are. Strip all of that away, and you strip away what makes a character who he or she is. That's largely what made the New 52 such a hollow universe in my opinion. DC editorial seemingly got annoyed with fans asking what stories had happened and which ones had not, but you can't erase people's memories. Those stories matter. Those stories make the characters.

Dominic wrote:I think what Shock means is "set the characters back to spec". This could be what the characters were when they first launched. Or, it could be a later but more iconic iteratioin (such Iron Man circa 1980). The reset would be visuals, but also status quo (to stasis quo). He is not saying he wants a Superman (or Spider-Man or an Optimus Prime or whatever) with all of the history of the/an old iteration of the character. He is saying make the new one "sort of like" the old one.

But there in lies the problem... With how much history is behind so many different characters, how exactly would you define the "more iconic" iteration? Different people will have different answers for that, especially given DC has different versions of heroes. Take the Flash as an example. A lot of fans are more familiar with Wally West because for ~25 years, he was the Flash. Others will say Barry Allen, because he's once again the current Flash, and was the Flash before Wally. Or if you're going to reset everything to when it first launched, then would you go with Jay Garrick instead? It might seem simple enough to just reset everything and start over fresh, but it's really not.

If anything, I think that'd do more harm than good, because you'd be alienating a lot of the long term fanbase by starting everything over. Again, that was a big complaint about the New52 in ditching a lot of the history for some characters, and is something DC is trying to bring back with Rebirth.

Shockwave wrote:The cat thing was part of a larger montage sequence that did exactly that, made a larger point. That point was that Superman was discovering the various good that he could with his powers and that he enjoyed discovering that. It gave the movie a feeling of fun and wonder and amazement and that's largely what made it such a great Superman movie. And that's everything that is absolutely absent from Man of Steel and why MoS just feels like the Dark Knight with SuperBatman. It just doesn't work for me. Superman is not dark and brooding and a Superman movie should not feel dark and brooding.

I don't see how rescuing a cat from a tree shows him discovering the good he can do with his powers... I mean, he really doesn't even need his powers for that. Unlike the rest of that montage where he actually stops crime and saves lives. The cats scene just seems really out of place by comparison. And Superman discovering the good he can do with his powers is not absent from Man of Steel at all, it's just portrayed differently. There's this whole part of the film where Superman travels the world, using his powers more or less in secret to help people, leading up to his discovery of the Kryptonian ship and becoming Superman.

I think with most of them it wouldn't be an issue. Superman is Clark Kent. Batman is Bruce wayne. For other heroes that have had their base costumes and set of powers passed between multiple characters, DC could very easily just do an online vote. "Which character do you want as Flash? Wally West or Barry Allen". Or they could just merge the two into Barry West Wally-Allen

I guess my main point is that DC in particular has reached a point where the back log of extra baggage is actively preventing them from doing any new or good stories with their characters to the point where they're stuck in an annual cycle of baggage maintenence. It has to end somewhere and in the end the short easiest answer is going to be dump the baggage. I mean, come on, is anyone here REALLY trying to tell me that something can't be rebooted while retaining the basic iconic essence intact? REALLY? On a TRANSFORMERS site? Seriously, that one word should really be all I need to say here. I mean, what I'm suggesting that DC do is just another Wednesday to us.

The cat thing shows that nothing is beneath him. He's just as happy getting a cat from a tree as he is stopping a robbery. More on this later.

I took a look through the DC previews today. Everything in there is pretty much the same information and art that's been on the web for a few weeks. I did see one item I'm looking forward to, and will very likely buy: Batman: The Brave and the Bold Bronze Age omnibus volume 1. There's some Jim Aparo and Neal Adams (in his heydey) art in that book. 70s Batman is often very good Batman, so I'm sure I'll get this when it's available.

Shockwave wrote:I think with most of them it wouldn't be an issue. Superman is Clark Kent. Batman is Bruce wayne.

Again, I think it'd be more complicated than you realize. Although characters like Superman and Batman have been more consistent over the years, there still has been different iterations of them. Pre-Crisis. Post-Crisis. New52. Dick Grayson as Batman. Azrael as Batman. Terry McGinnis. Electric Superman.... Certainly many versions aren't as iconic as others, but it's still debatable as to which version of the character is "more iconic"...

For other heroes that have had their base costumes and set of powers passed between multiple characters, DC could very easily just do an online vote. "Which character do you want as Flash? Wally West or Barry Allen". Or they could just merge the two into Barry West Wally-Allen

Last time DC asked fans to vote, they voted to kill Jason Todd so I don't think either of those ideas would end well...

I guess my main point is that DC in particular has reached a point where the back log of extra baggage is actively preventing them from doing any new or good stories with their characters to the point where they're stuck in an annual cycle of baggage maintenence. It has to end somewhere and in the end the short easiest answer is going to be dump the baggage.

Honestly, I don't think it's the "extra baggage" that prevents them from doing new and good stories at all. For me, I've always loved the sense of continuity and legacy in the comics. And again, the New52 went to prove that dumping the continuity for many of the characters did not work for the fans. Superman being the prime example of that. If anything, I think a major problem is that that they can't seem to let the characters develop anymore. Dumping the baggage wouldn't fix that, that's part of the problem.

I mean, come on, is anyone here REALLY trying to tell me that something can't be rebooted while retaining the basic iconic essence intact? REALLY? On a TRANSFORMERS site? Seriously, that one word should really be all I need to say here. I mean, what I'm suggesting that DC do is just another Wednesday to us.

You think every reboot of Transformers has kept the basic iconic essence intact? I'd have to argue how successful some of the series have actually been in that regard. Besides, I wouldn't mind seeing some series develop beyond the same ol' Autobot vs Decepticon/Optimus Prime vs Megatron idea... There's only so many times you can redo the same basic idea before that starts to get old too.

The cat thing shows that nothing is beneath him. He's just as happy getting a cat from a tree as he is stopping a robbery. More on this later.

And in the meantime, people are injured and killed while he spends time getting a dumb cat from a tree... One of the points I've seen being brought up more and more is that superheroes shouldn't focus on the little stuff like that, because then people start to rely too much on them. People need to be able to live their lives, not have the super heroes do everything for them.