Last Stand of the Wreckers discussion

[Onslaught Six]

Oh, that's a shame. Still, he was a pretty memorable one-shot villain. Gotta wonder why they chose him, though. No Mega and Giga? =[ May as well have been Deathsaurus... But hey, dRoPpInG mY fOoLiSh ExPeCtAtiOnS is what the story's all about, right?

I expect it was Overlord being released in the UK at the same time as guys like Pyro and the Predators that warranted his inclusion, and not his Masterforce appearance. To the UK, Overlord was just some big dude who showed up out of nowhere. (His bio even explicitly omits that his Powermasters are Powermasters, portraying them as inanimate "spark engines" or something.) James Roberts and Nick Roche both are from the UK so that's probably where the bulk of their experience there comes from.

I also expected Aquitas to be a dude. I even looked him up on TFWiki expecting him to be an obscure dude I hadn't heard of. Thought the article was wrong, didn't read further. (Phew.)

One thing about Wreckers being "self-contained," though, is that the whole thing, to me, implies that this kind of shit happens All The Time. Prowl is 'constantly' sending dudes to die for cover-up missions. It's supposed to say something larger about the Autobots in general, and that there's those of them out there who aren't so nice. And given Roberts and Roche are working on one of IDW's ongoings now, I fully expect to see that theme appear again from time to time. Look at Whirl!

(I'm giving Roche credit as if he's still "writing" the ongoing when Roberts clearly is, but if I can be honest I like to think it's an Atomic Robo-type situation. Clevinger is only ever credited with "Words" on the credits pages of Robo, whereas Wegener is usually credited with "Art," but the way they describe their process is it's 'very' collaborative. I suspect Roche occasionally goes to Roberts with vague ideas like, "What if Skids was in it and he was all fucked up or something?" and Roberts fleshes that out, with occasional suggestions from Roche.)

[Gomess]

Er, Overlord came out like three or four years before the Turbomasters and Predators. I guess that's "around the same time" to some folk? =/

I find it highly unlikely the creators of this story didn't know a little more about Overlord than his Euro bio. How could you work in TF fiction and not at least know he had a bigger role in Japan? You gotta try to be that ignorant. But maybe they managed it. Either way, yeah, still not sure about the casting here. *shrug*

[Onslaught Six]

Overlord was only released in Japan in 1987. He was released in 1991 in Europe. God damn it, you LIVE there, you should know this shit!

And I don't think they're being ignorant. They're being selective. It's like, okay, Overlord was a Godmaster in Japan, but to their experiences that they were drawing on, he was just this big Decepticon dude.

It'd be like if someone portrayed Grimlock as he was portrayed in Sunbow Season 3, all goofy and comic relief. That's a completely valid interpretation, believe it or not, because that was a mainstream media appearance. Just like if someone decided to make him the badass he was in the Marvel comics.

Overlord makes more sense than any of the other Japanese-exclusive Decepticon leader-types because he was actually released in Europe--in 1991, alongside guys like Snare and Stalker and Skyquake and Pyro and Ironfist. He's 'the' most thematically appropriate of the Japanese Decepticon dudes.

It doesn't make any sense for them to draw on his Masterforce interpretation because that's not the way he was presented to Europe. He was presented as Some Big Fucking Dude. Probably intended to fight Hyperion, if he was ever made.

[Gomess]

I think we got a little sidetracked somewhere; it's a shame Giga and Mega can't be included, but that's fine. The bigger issue is guys like Stalker, who were created with a specific function in mind, only for IDW to put them into a completely different role. Seems like a waste to me.

[BWprowl]

Dom, G, I kinda think you’re both on the wrong track re: Pyro. It’s not that he died because he was a douche, or that his martyr complex merited him getting ‘punished’ or anything. Remember that one of the stated themes in LSotW is ‘Good people dying in stupid, pointless ways’. Pyro is hardly a model Autobot, but he’s not an out-and-out thug or even an anti-hero; he still fights for the ‘good guys’ for the right reasons, he’s just rather dickish and self-centered about it. But notice that even the short time he spends with this group of Wreckers starts to have an effect on him. He goes from “I’m not giving up my spark to open the computer, that’s not cool enough, one of you losers should do it” to “Aw hell, Ill cover your escape, even though I’ll probably get killed doing so.” One could argue that the realization that Optimus would never actually acknowledge him, or give him the option to stand on the same level as him led to Pyro losing his reason for living, and deciding to just ‘give up’ his life at what he deemed was the most opportunistic moment. This would be…not unlike what Overlord went through when he found out Megatron wasn’t coming to give him that duel he wanted (one of my all time favorite moments in the comic, BTW). Anyway, Pyro died due to a passing lapse in motivation accompanied by an opportunity that presented itself at an unfortunate moment, the classic ‘suicide you don’t think through’ scenario, and it makes a surprisingly tragic figure out of a guy who’s whole gimmick up to that point was that his death would never be as epically tragic as he wanted it to be.

One thing about Wreckers being "self-contained," though, is that the whole thing, to me, implies that this kind of shit happens All The Time. Prowl is 'constantly' sending dudes to die for cover-up missions. It's supposed to say something larger about the Autobots in general, and that there's those of them out there who aren't so nice. And given Roberts and Roche are working on one of IDW's ongoings now, I fully expect to see that theme appear again from time to time. Look at Whirl!

That whole ‘happens all the time’ thing was *definitely* the point of the story; that’s most of what the Aequitas files *were*: bad stuff that Autobots do more than you would think (Flame!). It makes me wonder if Prowl realizes the irony in him doing nearly-as-bad things to attain those files and the like, but then again Prowl’s whole thing is that he *does* realize the implications of his actions, but sees himself as a necessary evil for the good of the Autobots.

Have I mentioned that I *love* what IDW has done with Prowl? I’m excited about that RID ongoing pretty much solely because it’ll have more focus on him.

[Gomess]

Actually Prowl that's exactly how I saw Pyro. And, like I said to Dom, he serves his role in that particular story excellently, but I'd rather have seen more of him than have him die for the sake of exploring a concept. It's a personal problem!

[Dominic]

IDW has revised more than a few characters. Godbug and Arcee are examples of this. Galvatron and the rest of the original Ark's crew also work on this principle.

The only Master component to show up was, (as far as I know), Zarak. And, he died.

You gotta try to be that ignorant. But maybe they managed it. Either way, yeah, still not sure about the casting here. *shrug*

I cannot blame any writer for not wanting to wade through pages of minutia on a fan-wiki or hours of "stuff wot happens" anime. There is some good stuff on the Japanese side. But, even if I were being paid, i would not want to sit through all of it.

One thing about Wreckers being "self-contained," though, is that the whole thing, to me, implies that this kind of shit happens All The Time. Prowl is 'constantly' sending dudes to die for cover-up missions. It's supposed to say something larger about the Autobots in general, and that there's those of them out there who aren't so nice. And given Roberts and Roche are working on one of IDW's ongoings now, I fully expect to see that theme appear again from time to time. Look at Whirl!

Roche and Roberts did account for Prowl's motivation (in the AHM back-up). Prowl does not want glory or recognition. He wants to solve problems. He wants to end the war quickly and efficiently. His motivation for re-programming Kup was not to set himself up as a leader with a cushy gig. It was to give him a mouthpiece that would resonate with the troops and motivate them to do the sensible thing.

In the case of the Aquitas files, Prowl did not have any personal liability. (In fact, legalistically, Prowls butt was pretty well covered.) However, Prowl also knew that the files would be politically damaging in terms of morale (and possibly beyond that), which would hurt the war effort. Prowl was against the trials, and the paper trail (and official admissions of wrong doing) would be troublesome.

Prowl would more likely prefer to not have to solve the sorts of problems described above. But, if not him.....

he still fights for the ‘good guys’ for the right reasons,

Not sure about it being "the right reasons". Pyro seemed to be in it more for ego stroking than anything else.

It makes me wonder if Prowl realizes the irony in him doing nearly-as-bad things

That was addressed in the AHM back-up issue.

Prowl is comfortable with his actions by virtue of his motivation being sound.

Dom
-still giggles about Rotorstorm.

[Onslaught Six]

Pyro sacrifices himself so others can escape.

Is that 'not' a heroic death? Perhaps the most heroic of all?

Pyro's character arc was that he wanted to die a hero because dying a hero would be glorious and everyone would go, "Oh man, that Pyro guy sure was a hero!" He wanted to be remembered as a hero. Instead, he died to make sure some other dudes could get out. Some other dudes that nobody will remember. Nobody will remember Pyro. But he saved those other dudes' lives. And he knew that's what he was going to do.

Pyro realized that being a hero isn't about getting the glory. It's not about everyone raising you up on a pedastel and saying, "Look at that guy, and how heroic he is." It's about sacrificing yourself so others can live. It's about doing what has to be done, because it has to be done, and you're the only one who can do it. It doesn't matter if you'll be remembered. And in the end, Pyro realized that.

[Gomess]

I get the feeling that's not what LSotW's author wanted you to go away thinking.

But kudos for taking a positive attitude.

[Onslaught Six]

Probably not, but that's what interpretation is about, right?