The Transformers (IDW, formerly "Robots in Disguise")

[BWprowl]

That's not why, and I didn't say I wanted Prowl killed off.

Eh, then what did

and hope he goes down at the earliest opportunity

mean?

I simply prefer Autobots to act with a greater sense of morality than Decepticons. And yes, IDW has always had more shades of gray, no matter who was writing, but regardless... I expect better behavior from Prowl than we're getting. He's crossed the line as far as I'm concerned. It's not that he's an antagonist, it's that an Autobot shouldn't be acting the way Prowl is acting.

See, I don't get this either. Autobots and Decepticons comprise millions of individuals in-universe, it only makes sense that their behavior wouldn't be completely homogenous and in-line with each others' worldviews. And this isn't that much of a left-turn, Prowl's been like this pretty much from day 1 (and especially starting from AHM/LSotW).

I dunno, maybe it's just that I really *like* seeing our expectations for the faction-labels of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' subverted by having individuals of all moral stripes on both sides. Thundercracker, for example, we just got a Spotlight on him. When he had his big moment at the end of AHM, I didn't get all bent out of shape over a Decepticon acting nobly because I expected 'worse' from the character just because he had a purple badge on his wings, rather I was pleasantly surprised at the character having some nuance and individuality beyond what faction he was signed up for.

It's not like Prowl would work if you just flipped him over to the Decepticons (barring what seems to happen at the end of this most recent issue); his near-fanatical devotion to the Autobot 'cause' and 'image' is what drives him to do the things he does in this continuity. His status as an Autobot *is* an integral part of the character, it just doesn't manifest in the 'stock good-guy' ways earlier fiction would present such things.

I wonder, do you have the same misgivings about Whirl or Impactor that you have for Prowl? What about pretty much all of the Autobot leaders/senate from the early days of IDW's timeline, do you take as much issue with them as you do with Prowl here?

Like I said, this is just interesting to me, since I *love* characters like Prowl, who take our preconceived notions of black-and-white 'good guys' and 'bad guys' in a conflict and twist them in ways that make you question such definitions. I think he's a really fantastic character, and it's weird to see that you hate him so much just because he's doing morally ambiguous things while happening to wear a red logo on his chest.

[andersonh1]

That's not why, and I didn't say I wanted Prowl killed off.

Eh, then what did

and hope he goes down at the earliest opportunity

mean?

I hope he takes a fall, I hope he gets his comeuppance, I hope he suffers for his sins... however you want to put it, I hope he pays for all the ruthless things he's done.

See, I don't get this either. Autobots and Decepticons comprise millions of individuals in-universe, it only makes sense that their behavior wouldn't be completely homogenous and in-line with each others' worldviews. And this isn't that much of a left-turn, Prowl's been like this pretty much from day 1 (and especially starting from AHM/LSotW).

The self-chosen label "Autobot" surely stands for something. There are standards, and I'd like to see Prowl live up to them. If he doesn't, maybe part of his "going down" would involve being stripped of his Autobot status. That might be entirely justified.

[Onslaught Six]

Prowl's gonna get what's coming to him. I highly doubt that at the end of this, everybody's just going to go, "Hey, good job, Prowl!" and pat him on the back.

[Dominic]

He's crossed the line as far as I'm concerned. It's not that he's an antagonist, it's that an Autobot shouldn't be acting the way Prowl is acting.

But, that is kind of the point.

IDW's Autobots are not wholly good guys. They are the successors to the pre-faction tyranny. Remember, the Decepticons were nearly the good guys. That has been a recurring theme in IDW's back-written content for about 2 years now. (A real world example would be Russia circa 1918. The Czar's regime was a disaster waiting to happen, which it eventually did. The Bolsheviks replaced that regime, and ended up being worse. The Autobots were essentially Czarists.) Ratchet was shown to be a Functionist in flashback. Functionism is "Central Planning", making Ratchet a supporter of fascism. In context, the Decepticons had initially valid grievances, even if the faction eventually degenerated.

From the reader/writer perspective, why shouldn't Autobots be shown to act that way? Why do the faction lines have to be as rigid as they were in the 1980s? We are getting better comics now than we used to. Do you want to read "Autobots, roll for it!" and "Decepticons, attack!" as the factions fight over the McGiffin of the week over and over and over and over and over and over again? Even the worst of the old Marvel series, (Budianski's mid to late run), avoided this.

If you want "the good guys am good and the bad guys am bad", go read various "Marvel Adventures" comics. Just do not expect anything great, as those books tend to follow a set pattern.


Dom
-would rather have good comics than rigidly defined good guys.

[andersonh1]

From the reader/writer perspective, why shouldn't Autobots be shown to act that way? Why do the faction lines have to be as rigid as they were in the 1980s? We are getting better comics now than we used to. Do you want to read "Autobots, roll for it!" and "Decepticons, attack!" as the factions fight over the McGiffin of the week over and over and over and over and over and over again? Even the worst of the old Marvel series, (Budianski's mid to late run), avoided this.

Dom, I don't normally get frustrated when discussing this topic, but come on! Is the straw man really necessary? It's not a case of either "simple good Autobots vs. eeeeevil Decepticons" or "two equally immoral/amoral groups", to the exclusion of all else. No matter the continuity, it's always been the case that Autobots aspire to higher ideals than Decepticons. Sometimes they're not all that far apart in some areas (the live action movies) and sometimes there's a vast gulf between them (G1), but the two groups are not the same. IDW falls somewhere in the middle of that scale of idealism, which is fine. But there's still a line, especially now that the war is over.

Right now, Prowl is acting like a Decepticon, not an Autobot. He has crossed the line. Last Stand of the Wreckers showed him getting pretty close if not crossing it then, but he's clearly acting like a fascist thug. He's become the Autobot version of Spike Witwicky. The ends justify the means. Any means necessary to achieve his goals. He might as well be Megatron.

[Dominic]

It is not a question of the Autobots acting like the Decepticons. They do, generally, behave better. The Decepticons became monsters over time.

He's become the Autobot version of Spike Witwicky. The ends justify the means. Any means necessary to achieve his goals. He might as well be Megatron.

And, Prowl acting like Megatron is....just maybe, kind of the point. Megatron started out as an okay guy. He just wanted a fair cut for him and his buddies. But, he ended up starting a war that more or less made it impossible for anybody, including his own, to live well.

And, Prowl is a far cry from Spike.

Spike was, at best, a well-connected kleptocrat. And, that is being charitable.

Spike lied to his superiors. He misused public resources and his station for personal gain, while acting in a manner unbecoming of his station. (Claiming trophies and a fancy ride was beneath his rank.) Spike deliberately sought to enrich himself at the expense of his allies and the people he was responsible to, (both those under his command and members of the public).

In contrast, Prowl is not acting for personal gain. Prowl goal, from the point it was first articulated back in the AHM "Coda" has been to end the war. While Prowl has betrayed the public trust, he has not been shown trying to gain power or prestige.

Spike lied, cheated, stole and killed for personal gain and vendettas. Prowl lies and kills, but for a goal other than his own. Prowl is a fanatic, and arguably a monster. But, he got there by adherence to the principles of his faction.

And, that makes for better comics than just having Prowl be a good guy because he is an Autobot.


Dom

[BWprowl]

Right now, Prowl is acting like a Decepticon, not an Autobot. He has crossed the line. Last Stand of the Wreckers showed him getting pretty close if not crossing it then, but he's clearly acting like a fascist thug. He's become the Autobot version of Spike Witwicky. The ends justify the means. Any means necessary to achieve his goals. He might as well be Megatron.

And some of us *like* that. Some of us find that interesting, far more interesting than Prowl as a straight-forward good guy. It's character development. It's an arc. It's refreshing and new. And I just don't understand how Prowl not being as 'likeable' or up the the same 'moral high standard' that he was in Marvel/Sunbow G1 makes him a 'bad character' who wouldn't be worth reading about, and how keeping him as a 1-dimensional 'good guy' character would be more interesting.

I dunno, I just don't see why you'd get so wound up over Prowl's heel-turn. Again, do you have the same issues with guys like Whirl, or Impactor? You never answered me on those. What about Cyclonus or Thundercracker, Decepticons who don't fit within the same 'lower standard' you would expect of the 'bad guy' faction, are you disdainful of their portrayal as well? I'm genuinely curious about how you feel about some of these compared to Prowl. Because again, I don't see why Prowl's current characterization would ilicit such ire from you, unless you, like, seriously looked up to Prowl as an example or something. I'm (vicariously) named after the guy, and I don't look up to him, he's a dang cartoon toy robot who isn't real.

And, Prowl acting like Megatron is....just maybe, kind of the point. Megatron started out as an okay guy. He just wanted a fair cut for him and his buddies. But, he ended up starting a war that more or less made it impossible for anybody, including his own, to live well.

I actually get the impression Prowl's parallel is supposed to be Sentinel Prime, being an Autobot authority figure who oppressed the upstart 'lower' Decepticon class through prejudice and intimidation. The fact that Prowl got Sentinel-esque add-on armor last issue definitely seals the comparison.

[Onslaught Six]

Not all Autobots are clean-cut good guys, and not all Decepticons are thugs and murderers. The same way that not all liberals are concerned with being "politically correct," and not all conservatives are Bible-thumping gun nuts.

Just because somebody has a big red face on their chest doesn't mean they are the ideal that everyone wearing that face strives to be. (For one thing, I am convinced that Prowl has kept all the information he gained in Wreckers a secret from 'everybody,' including guys like Bumblebee and Optimus Prime.)

Also, Prowl: Cyclonus isn't a Decepticon.

[BWprowl]

Just because somebody has a big red face on their chest doesn't mean they are the ideal that everyone wearing that face strives to be. (For one thing, I am convinced that Prowl has kept all the information he gained in Wreckers a secret from 'everybody,' including guys like Bumblebee and Optimus Prime.)

Well yeah, we all understand that. The thing is Anderson is arguing that such a portrayal of Prowl somehow makes him not as good/entertaining/inetesting to read about, that said portrayal is bringing the book down (in my opinion, it's the biggest reason this book is as good as it is), and that the sooner Prowl is gotten rid of, the better. And I'm trying to understand why.

Also, Prowl: Cyclonus isn't a Decepticon.

Dammit, you got me. Uh, but he's still a member of a group that was categorized as 'bad guys'. That still kinda fits with what we're talking about here.

[andersonh1]

The thing is Anderson is arguing that such a portrayal of Prowl somehow makes him not as good/entertaining/inetesting to read about, that said portrayal is bringing the book down (in my opinion, it's the biggest reason this book is as good as it is), and that the sooner Prowl is gotten rid of, the better. And I'm trying to understand why.

And I"m not sure why the fact that I dislike the fall of an Autobot character is such a hard thing to understand. I like the (supposedly) good side to act like they have some moral standards. Is that so difficult to understand? Apparently so. I don't get it.

Do I think it's dragging the book down? No, I just don't like the way Prowl is behaving. It's as simple as that. Am I not allowed to dislike a character and his actions? Isn't that the point sometimes? I doubt I'm supposed to be rooting for Sixshot in Escalation or rooting for Shockwave in Maximum Dinobots. I'm allowed to dislike the trajectory of a character's story arc. You're allowed to like what I dislike. To each his own. I understand that you find Prowl's actions interesting, and so do I. I just don't approve of them, while you do.

And I didn't say get rid of him, soon or otherwise, I said I want to see him face the consequences of his actions. That would be good drama, and it would be justice.

Not all Autobots are clean-cut good guys, and not all Decepticons are thugs and murderers.

I agree, but somewhere there has to be a line of demarcation where one stops acting like an Autobot entirely. Since BWProwl asked about Whirl, I don't think Roberts' portrayal of him paints a good picture. Is he entertaining? Sometimes, sure. But he's a psychopath and a would-be murderer, and he doesn't really deserve Autobot status.

I appreciate that the various IDW writers have been trying to avoid the overly-simplistic Autobot=good/Decepticon=bad paradigm, but I sometimes think they go too far into the other direction. There's too much moral equivalency between the two sides. It sometimes feels like many of the main Autobot characters don't even aspire to higher moral standards any more. I'd rather see a character like Prowl aim high and fail, then get up and try again than see him or her just do one cold, brutal thing after another.

To sum up, and to try to explain one more time: Robots in Disguise is a good solid Transformers book, and I'm enjoying it and the storyline. That doesn't mean I approve of every element of the book, and my major gripe is how Prowl is being turned into a brutal, fascist thug.