TF Views

Dominic wrote:DC had it planned in general terms. But, in 1985, CoIE was unprecedented, so the bumps were understandable. "Zero Hour" was not meant to fix problems with CoIE specifically so much as it was meant to maintain and clean some of the things that had happened since CoIE.

General terms perhaps, but unprecedented or not, even DC has admitted they hadn't planned it out as well as they should have. There were things CoIE didn't address, and the stories moving forward ended up having some conflicting information. Zero Hour was meant to fix those issues, not just cleaning things up that had happened since CoIE.

I know that JMS wanted his name taken off of "One More Day". But, he wrote it to Qesada's specification (which is why he wanted his name taken off).

Going back to the comments JMS made at the time, he said it wasn't his work anymore with the last two issues. It was very much Quesada's story at that point. He said Quesada ultimately talked him out of taking his name off those issues and only did so because he didn't want to sabotage Quesada or Marvel. Instead he compromised by sharing the writing credit with Quesada.

"One More Day" was bad. Plenty of reasons. But, there are still (nearly a decade later) people howling and complaining about how they want MJ and the marriage back. No matter how good "Spider-Man" comics have been since MJ was written out, people are still going to howl and compain because "One More Day" was published at all.

Quesada wanted MJ gone, and did not care about the details. But, that was not the real problem with that story. (Why the hell would the devil care about a single marriage? Why?) In real terms, Quesada should have just tossed the marriage with an editorial mandate rather than wasting 4 issues of a comic. But,

It's not just the marriage people were howling and complaining about after that story. Besides undoing the marriage, Quesada basically wanted to reset Peter back to his college days, despite the deal with the devil having absolutely nothing to do with that and Peter being an adult well beyond his college days. So suddenly we had stuff like Harry Osborn being alive again and the old gang hanging out at a cafe, Spider-Man lost all of his new powers (which I have to say the stingers was a bad idea, but I did like the organic web shooters) and Peter was back to living with Aunt May. All of it without explanation that they promised to give after Quesada's "It's magic, we don't have to explain it" didn't go over very well. But they never really did. It was a 30-40 year step backwards for the character all because that's the Spider-Man Quesada wanted, completely ignoring the audience and any sense of good story telling.

"Secret Wars" had a solid ending if one reads it as a Doom v/s Reed story.

Which would be fine if "Secret Wars" had been a Doom v/s Reed story, but it wasn't.

Shockwave wrote:Comics is the only medium where you're supposed to just take a single story arc as not being part of larger narrative.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. That's one of the reasons why DC has done reboots over the years, to condense the larger narrative to make it easier for new readers to get into the story. Although how successful those attempts have been is debatable. And usually (for comics in general) when there's a story that references previous stories, the writers will give the audience a brief recap of the backstory that they need to know.

"Secret Wars" was a Doom v/s Reed story. Hickman had a fascination with those characters for years, and set up for "Secret Wars" arguably goes back to his run on FF and related "Ultimate" series. it was an event, but it was also about Doom and Reed.

It's not just the marriage people were howling and complaining about after that story. Besides undoing the marriage, Quesada basically wanted to reset Peter back to his college days, despite the deal with the devil having absolutely nothing to do with that and Peter being an adult well beyond his college days. So suddenly we had stuff like Harry Osborn being alive again and the old gang hanging out at a cafe, Spider-Man lost all of his new powers (which I have to say the stingers was a bad idea, but I did like the organic web shooters) and Peter was back to living with Aunt May. All of it without explanation that they promised to give after Quesada's "It's magic, we don't have to explain it" didn't go over very well. But they never really did. It was a 30-40 year step backwards for the character all because that's the Spider-Man Quesada wanted, completely ignoring the audience and any sense of good story telling.

I am not happy about the reset. But, Quesada really never wanted to "explain" it. He just wanted a retro styled Spider-Man.

I am not a fan of resetting characters. Similarly, I did not like "One More Day". But, at the end of the day, if I am getting good comics after the event (which we have), then I am not going to stand around pouting and complaining about something from *years* ago. And, I can get behind Quesada basically telling fans to move on and get the hell over it.



To go back to a point I made above with "Superman", I would rather have a good comic (like "Red Son") that was never meant to fit than one that fits in nicely with other stuff that may or may not be good.

Dominic wrote:"Secret Wars" was a Doom v/s Reed story. Hickman had a fascination with those characters for years, and set up for "Secret Wars" arguably goes back to his run on FF and related "Ultimate" series. it was an event, but it was also about Doom and Reed.

How was "Secret Wars" a Doom v/s Reed story when Reed is hardly even in it? From the summaries I've read, he's in the first issue trying to save people with their lifeboat plan, but then it isn't until issue 6 that he appears in any significant way again, plotting to take on Doom with his Ultimate-counterpart until they finally go to Castle Doom in issue 8. It's not until the final issue that Reed faces Doom. Not even in any of the build up to "Secret Wars" was there any confrontation between them. That was mainly focused on the Illuminati trying to save their universe but ultimately failing. It was an event that ended on Reed and Doom, but it wasn't about them.

I am not happy about the reset. But, Quesada really never wanted to "explain" it. He just wanted a retro styled Spider-Man.

I know Quesada never wanted to explain it, but never-the-less, eventually he promised that they would. And in fact, Quesada himself would write "One Moment in Time", which was billed as an explanation for all of the changes to come out of OMD. It would recount how Mephisto prevented the wedding and how Peter's identity became secret again, but that's about it. They never actually delivered on that promise to explain everything.

I am not a fan of resetting characters. Similarly, I did not like "One More Day". But, at the end of the day, if I am getting good comics after the event (which we have), then I am not going to stand around pouting and complaining about something from *years* ago. And, I can get behind Quesada basically telling fans to move on and get the hell over it.

Whether or not we've gotten good comics after the event is extremely debatable. Personally, I wouldn't say that we have. Nothing I've seen them do with Spider-Man following OMD has made me want to return to the book. If anything, having Doc Ock running around as Spider-Man for more or less a year drove me even further away from it, because that's not the character I want to be reading about. Even in this "All-New All-Different" setting, Peter Parker who owns a big company with Spider-Man as his "body guard" really doesn't interest me because that's who Iron Man is. It's like Marvel has forgotten what Spider-Man is all about. Part of telling a good story is knowing your audience, and while the company is going to do what they want to do with the characters regardless, they shouldn't just ignore that audience and tell them to get over it. That's a good way to drive off customers.

To go back to a point I made above with "Superman", I would rather have a good comic (like "Red Son") that was never meant to fit than one that fits in nicely with other stuff that may or may not be good.

Stand alone series are fine. But for me, I prefer reading ongoing stories for the characters and their world. A stand alone series is limited to only that one story in that regard.

How was "Secret Wars" a Doom v/s Reed story when Reed is hardly even in it? From the summaries I've read, he's in the first issue trying to save people with their lifeboat plan, but then it isn't until issue 6 that he appears in any significant way again, plotting to take on Doom with his Ultimate-counterpart until they finally go to Castle Doom in issue 8. It's not until the final issue that Reed faces Doom. Not even in any of the build up to "Secret Wars" was there any confrontation between them. That was mainly focused on the Illuminati trying to save their universe but ultimately failing. It was an event that ended on Reed and Doom, but it wasn't about them.

The lead-in also includes Hickman's FF stuff, which includes Reed and Victor.

"Secret Wars" opens with Reed failing to save his world and family. (The last few pages of issue 1 are brutal.) Reed does not need to show up in every issue of "Secret Wars". The series shows Doom's plans and world unravelling while Reed et al plot against him.

I know Quesada never wanted to explain it, but never-the-less, eventually he promised that they would. And in fact, Quesada himself would write "One Moment in Time", which was billed as an explanation for all of the changes to come out of OMD. It would recount how Mephisto prevented the wedding and how Peter's identity became secret again, but that's about it. They never actually delivered on that promise to explain everything.

There would be no way to explain people forgetting Spider-Man's identity that would not read like a stupid way to justify an editorial mandate. It is better just to accept it and move on.


As for "Superior", I have heard good things about it. (Planning to read it sometime this year, honestly. I am.) It was an idea based story focused on....what defines a hero (Spider-Man in this case). That should be exactly what fans want. From what I have heard, the current "Amazing Spider-Man" series is supposed to be a thematic follow-up to "Superior", showing the hero at his full potential. (I also hear it is supposed to tie in with Ditko's Randian views. Gotta read up on that some more though.)

Dominic wrote:The lead-in also includes Hickman's FF stuff, which includes Reed and Victor.

...And? A lot of the lead-in stuff included a lot of characters.

"Secret Wars" opens with Reed failing to save his world and family. (The last few pages of issue 1 are brutal.) Reed does not need to show up in every issue of "Secret Wars". The series shows Doom's plans and world unravelling while Reed et al plot against him.

If "Secret Wars" was a Reed v/s Doom book like you claim, then it certainly should feature Reed more than it does. With out it, there's not really the focus on those two characters specifically, making Reed fairly interchangeable with the 'et al'.

There would be no way to explain people forgetting Spider-Man's identity that would not read like a stupid way to justify an editorial mandate. It is better just to accept it and move on.

Basically Peter asked Dr. Strange to cast a spell to make everyone forget his identity. Not the most creative, but it's something. Something is better than nothing. It's a problem that they left so much unexplained after OMD.

As for "Superior", I have heard good things about it. (Planning to read it sometime this year, honestly. I am.) It was an idea based story focused on....what defines a hero (Spider-Man in this case). That should be exactly what fans want. From what I have heard, the current "Amazing Spider-Man" series is supposed to be a thematic follow-up to "Superior", showing the hero at his full potential. (I also hear it is supposed to tie in with Ditko's Randian views. Gotta read up on that some more though.)

Just being idea based doesn't mean it'd be a good story or will be what the fans want Dom. People tend to read a story for more than just an idea. Superior was well received, but it's not a story that interests me personally because Doc Ock is not Spider-Man. And while the current series follows that up with Peter back in charge, it still doesn't feel like Spider-Man.

Sparky Prime wrote:Just being idea based doesn't mean it'd be a good story or will be what the fans want Dom. People tend to read a story for more than just an idea.

BINGO!! And I would go so far as to say that this is likely true of most potential readers that are not reading, and I say that as someone who fits into that category. There are several things that prevent or drive away new readers:

1. Story reboots: It's not going to bring in new readers to reset things every year and constantly tell readers "that thing we just told you happened? Yeah that didn't actually happen." Really? Well then why the fuck did I read it? Fiction is like someone telling a story, but comics are like five drunk and high people standing around arguing about what really happened in a story and none of them can get the details right.

2. The backlog: Some comics have been going for decades. And that can be daunting to new or casual readers. Sure it's easy to say "Just pick a story and read it.", but that's not how most people look at fiction. Most of us look at this the same way we would a tv show or series of movies or video games: We're going to want to start from the beginning so that we get the whole story. Because that's how most fiction works. There's only two mediums I can think of where it's ok to say "just start where you want" and that's comics and soap operas. And Dr. Who. But generally when most people approach a story, they want to start from the beginning. Which leads to my next one:

3. Confusing numbering: It's all well and fine to reboot things in an effort to bring in new readers and starting over with numbering, on the face of it, might seem like a good way to do that. But, that has to then be consistent. I refer back to my Thor example as why this is a problem. It's because the renumbering doesn't stay consistent. The new Thor series started off with a new story and new numbering and, just 20 issues into it, they reverted back to legacy numbering. Now I ask you, if you knew nothing about comics and tried to track down this run of comics, and you found out that there were ~580 issues of a previous Thor book, then another new series with 1-20 which then jumped to 600... Jesus, I'm writing this and I can't even believe I'm writing this, and I think even I lost track of that already. This tendancy is just one more thing keeping new or casual people out of the hobby.

4. Crossovers/the annual "big event": I think most new readers and casual fans want to be able to just start reading a book about a particular character or small group of characters and be able to read about JUST those characters without having to go through an annual event where we have to pick up 20 other books about characters we have no interest in or don't give a shit about just to get the full story about the ones we're interested in. I was particularly irked by this during the "World War Hulk" event because I was reading a few titles at the time, but then had to read a crap ton of other comics, some of them specifically about the Hulk, A character I really don't like on general concept and principal, just to keep up with what was going on in the three I was reading. Which is bullshit. Exactly the kind of bullshit that I, as a casual reader and definitely new readers are not going to tolerate.

On a side note, and to respond to Dom's comment about a consistent ongoing narrative: Again, yes, I do expect that. Because historically, in my experience with comics, that's what I've consistently gotten from comics. My only exposure to reading them as a kid were the original Marvel TF run, including parts of the UK run. Which was a consistent narrative that ran for ~5 years. And then, in my adult life, again, the experience is with TF comics. First with Dreamwave, which kept things going consistently and now with IDW who has been going on with their consistent narrative for over ten years and for a lot of that consisting of at least two titles per month. So why wouldn't I expect that from other comics? And this also applies to the "start from the beginning" thing too because I've had several times where I've read the original 80 issue run beginning to end as one continuous story. And I usually read G2 after that as part of that reading experience because it's part of that same story. Hm... You know what I haven't done though? Read the original 1-80, then the recent Re-G1 and then G2 all together. I might do that actually. See how it shakes out.

Anyway, this is just the perspective of a casual fan of comic characters and a few of the obstacles that keep me from getting into the hobby. Right now, I think the best thing that Marvel and DC could do to draw in new readers would be to start new comics featuring versions of their characters from the cinematic universes, start all of them from number 1 and just let them keep going as long as the movies continue making money. No reboots, no annual events, and no renumbering. And, keep those stories separate from the convoluted universes that they have now. Oh, and they could cross advertise it with the movies!! What a concept! Seriously, just a little blurb during or before the opening credits "See the continuing story in ___ comics on sale now at comic book stores everywhere". I'm willing to bet that they would draw in a lot of new readers if they knew they could see more of that story they just watched on screen and that it would keep going.

The reboots solve the problem of too much background. Similarly, keeping runs mostly contained makes comics approachable for casual readers.

Dominic wrote:The reboots solve the problem of too much background. Similarly, keeping runs mostly contained makes comics approachable for casual readers.

In theory, yes, but that's not the perception of those outside of the hobby. Which is my whole point. If the industry wants to draw in more people from outside the hobby, they need to address and debunk that perception.

Sinestro #18
The Paling begins to attack/convert the people of Earth with Sinestro and his Corps as their first line of defense in orbit, while the heroes of Earth take on those that reach the surface. But the Sinestro Corps find it difficult to fight the Paling, as their rings are not very effective against them, forcing them to rely on other abilities and weapons. Eventually Sinestro launches his Manhunter army, splitting them up to locate the Pale Bishop, as well as recruiting people on Earth to help replace many of the fallen Sinestro Corps members.

Sinestro #19
Sinestro is pleased with many of the new recruits his rings have chosen from Earth, including the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. The recruitment also somehow caused the Paling's defenses to briefly weaken. This gives Sinestro an idea, sending out even more rings to recruit more members, but rather than weaken the Paling again, they send out a massive energy wave that kills many Yellow Lanterns. Natu begins to think there is little hope to save the Earth, which gives Sinestro another idea, and releases Saint Walker. The experiments on him have allowed him to boost the power of Fear with out needing a Green Lantern ring nearby, which finally seems to turn the tide of the battle in the Sinestro Corps favor. Meanwhile, the Manhunters have located the Pale Bishop. Sinestro reveals yet another secret weapon, the Manhunters are equipped with an Indigo ring which allows them to teleport Sinestro and Natu directly to the Pale Bishop.

Bit surprised to see all of the weapons Sinestro had been gathering in the last few issues have already come into play, but against a foe that their usual weapon alone doesn't work, it makes sense. Also nice to actually see the heroes on Earth playing a role in this story. Seems like so often (outside of a cross over) what the other heroes are doing during something this big, it just gets glazed over when they should be involved. Although I'm sure their having power rings will only be temporary. It seems that Sinestro is starting to understand the Green Lanterns methods during this story as well, in that they don't go looking to stop a conflict before it starts. Sinestro seems a bit caught unawares in these issues, given that he doesn't exactly know how to fight the Paling and has used so many of this reserve weapons.

Green Lantern #49
With the caveats that I expressed last time about this new version of Sonar, I think this was a pretty strong issue. Hal's rage issues seem out of character, though the way they manifest through the less refined interface of the gauntlet continues to be a nice way to differentiate that from the usual power rings. It's good to see Hal's nephew is going to survive, and Hal himself gets to save the United Nations from a massacre by Sonar's bombs.... though how Sonar got them all in the delegate earpieces is not explained. Drama over plausibility, I guess.

And Parallax has arrived on Earth, looking for Hal Jordan. Next issue is advertised as renegade Hal vs. Parallax Hal.