Comics are Awesome II

[Dominic]

Just because editorial wanted it to happen doesn't tell us how it happened in the story.

The point is they do not need to. The *real* reason DC changed everything after "Flashpoint" is that they wanted to modernize their fucking comics and make them more accessible to new readers. Some changes will be directly explainable by the "big event". Others will be explained in-story. Other changes are simply going to be declared.

The problem here is the fandom who needs to have everything fit together while being unable to get over yesterday's damned comics.

Because Earth 2 is a brand new Earth 2 universe. The original was destroyed in CoIE. This Earth 2 is a new canon, unlike the main DC universe.

Really? So, "Earth 2" is a new thing? But, doesn't "Earth 2" tie in with the main DC Earth? And, wasn't that written after "Flashpoint"? And, hey, it looks like there never was a Justice Society in the post "Flashpoint" timeline.

Along similar lines, current Earth 2 looks nothing like the Earth 2 that was revealed at the end of "52", which was changed for its appearances in "JSA".

I meant DC in general, not specifically those particular stories. And it wasn't that Tim Drake was never Robin, they just had him start out calling himself "Red Robin" at the start of his super hero career instead. New 52 Teen Titans even establishes he still wore his post-"Infinite Crisis" Robin costume. So it is possible at least some of Dixon's run still counts here.

Dude, you are deliberately misunderstanding what I wrote. Fucking stop. Most, if not all of Dixon's run with Robin has been over-written. Just stop trying to find the exception to the general rule.

There in lies a problem with the New 52. DC has not been clear on the changes. Some events don't count anymore while some storylines that came out of them still do. It's confusing, I wont deny that. But you can't just make assumptions about what gets tossed or is "mandated" when we obviously don't have a clear picture on any of that.

To be fair, DC was not much more precise following CoIE back in 1986. The difference is that the fans are more vocal now.

Because I won't find them in DC's current lineup.

Yeah, but you will find other comics. Seriously, you are missing some great comics by avoiding new DC. (I am half-way through "Blackhawks", which I am picking up because of Costa. Damned fine book. "Earth 2" is a good capes and tights book.) Do not look at "Earth 2" as "new JSA". Look at it as "a new comic".

I've been reading comics off and on for almost 24 years, you young whippersnapper.

Actually, lets do some real math, (rather than my usual rounding).

I got in to TF comics in 1985 I think. (I got reprints of some early issues and then a few scattered single issues.) I was not reading comics regularly at this point. But, I kept those comics for years and started getting sporadic comics after that. That was 27 years ago.

In 1987, I was gettting "GI Joe" comics pretty consistently, and occassional issues of TF. I had not yet discovered comic book stores. But, my mother worked in a book store and I would regularly check magazine racks at the mall and such. (I also got my first compilation, "GI Joe Order of Battle" around this time....) That was 25 years ago.

By 1988, I had expanded to "Spider-Man" and continued with "GI Joe", along with more sporadic TFs.

By 1989, I had discovered comic book shops and hobby shops. I discovered compilations, (and read more than a few of them following Burton's "Batman" that summer.) Backing boards and bags became treasured commodities. (Where did comic shops get such things? How could I get them? Oh my, they sold them at comics shops!) That was 23 years ago, and it began my first run as a fan, which lasted until until the mid 90s. Since then, I have never fully been out of comics.

The closest I came to being out of comics was in the late 90s, when I was reading "Preacher", waiting for it to get good. (It did not.) After that, I almost exclusively read Games Workshop's "Inferno" and "Warhammer" monthly, having discovered a trove of them at a local hobby shop. Comic shops were places I went to buy toys occassionally.

My god, I am old.

Basically, DC is telling a story and it's like they can't get it straight. For

It is more like DC is telling a story and ignoring most of their old stuff.

In fact, I'm starting to think certain titles should just be retired after a while.

I would agree here.

Why are these characters so marketable and all over books, cards, school supplies, etc, and yet the comics book market itself is tiny? Where's the disconnect?

Really dude? Really? You are asking this? Have you looked at modern schools? Have you looked at demographics and book sales?

Reading, (to say nothing of writing and basic literacy), decline every year. This is nothing new. Why would comics be immune to market forces? To make matters worse, not everybody who reads is going to bother with comics, if they bother with fiction at all.

(Sorry. That came out more surly than I meant it to. But, I work in adult ed, and could tell you stories that would curdle your blood. Shoot me a message if you are curiuos.)



This week's comics:

Earth 2 #7:
This is a breather issue after the last issue's big fight. Sloan and Khan maneuver. Hawkgirl and Green Lantern verbally spar. Much of the damage Grundy did, (and more besides) is established to be healing as a result of Green Lantern's victory last issue. The new Sandman shows up as the leader of a commando unit. Grade: B/C

Legends of the Dark Knight #2:
The focus on this issue is, ironically, on keeping perspective. While Batman has obviously difficulty making any real progress against guys like the Joker, this issue shows that he is in fact a stabilizing influence on Gotham city as a whole. As out of control as Gotham is *with* Batman, it would be worse without him. Grade: A


Dom
-needs to finish "Blackhawks"....

[andersonh1]

Yeah, but you will find other comics. Seriously, you are missing some great comics by avoiding new DC. (I am half-way through "Blackhawks", which I am picking up because of Costa. Damned fine book.

It may be. It also got cancelled pretty fast. That's no indication of quality, but it clearly didn't sell for whatever reason.

"Earth 2" is a good capes and tights book. Do not look at "Earth 2" as "new JSA". Look at it as "a new comic".

I can't fool myself like that. If the characters had all-new names and new secret identities, sure, I could pretend Earth-2 was an entirely new comic. But it isn't. It's replaced a book I enjoyed tremendously for a long time with something inferior. Inferior versions of characters, bad dialogue, and a plot that seems to have ripped off the current Animal Man and Swamp Thing. The new costumes are not to my liking, and the changes to the characters aren't either. You enjoy the book if it suits you, but it's just a bad remake as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, lets do some real math, (rather than my usual rounding). ..

I actually didn't start reading comics until 1989. I've probably mentioned it before, but "A Death in the Family" was the first comic story I read. I think I picked up part three, and then went back to get parts 1 and 2 off the rack. This was at the mall bookstore since if there was a comic book shop in the area at the time, I didn't know where it was. I used to get comics off the same circular racks at the gas station or the local drugstore. I think the first Transformers comic I picked up was the "Attack of the Savage Seacons" issue, so mid 40s in the old Marvel run maybe?

I was a huge collector once I found the shop, and bought 15-20 titles a month until Emerald Twilight and Zero Hour made me disgusted enough with DC to mostly break the habit (a parallel with the modern day in some ways... even back then I wasn't happy about what DC did to the JSA!). Between that point and the point at which Dreamwave started publishing Transformers comics, I only collected a few series. Morrison's JLA, Dixon's Nightwing, some of Hal Jordan's time as the Spectre, and a few others here and there, but nothing like the massive collecting and reading binge I used to have. Dreamwave and IDW got me back into regular comic reading because of Transformers. I the first months of DC's New 52 saw me buying the most comics in a month since the early 90s, but they couldn't keep me. I just didn't like what they were selling.

So, much like you, off and on from time to time, depending on circumstances.

Why are these characters so marketable and all over books, cards, school supplies, etc, and yet the comics book market itself is tiny? Where's the disconnect?

Really dude? Really? You are asking this? Have you looked at modern schools? Have you looked at demographics and book sales?

Reading, (to say nothing of writing and basic literacy), decline every year. This is nothing new. Why would comics be immune to market forces? To make matters worse, not everybody who reads is going to bother with comics, if they bother with fiction at all.

(Sorry. That came out more surly than I meant it to. But, I work in adult ed, and could tell you stories that would curdle your blood. Shoot me a message if you are curiuos.)

I'll have to do that sometime. But you're saying it's the medium that's the problem then, the fact that the books have to be read rather than watched? That's sad. I know the literacy rate in SC is poor. My aunt used to work with adult literacy programs, teaching people to read. I've always been a big reader. So has my wife, and our daughters have picked up the habit as well, so it's easy to forget that a lot of people aren't in the same boat.

[Sparky Prime]

The point is they do not need to.

I disagree. If a story is part of an ongoing storyline you can't just make changes to that storyline without reconciling it with what they've already established in it. Something needs to explain it one way or another.

The *real* reason DC changed everything after "Flashpoint" is that they wanted to modernize their fucking comics and make them more accessible to new readers. Some changes will be directly explainable by the "big event". Others will be explained in-story. Other changes are simply going to be declared.

As I have said at least 2 or 3 times now, I agree, that's the driving force for why DC made the changes they did. But again, that's the behind the scenes reason. *Why* DC made changes does not explain *how* those changes occurred *in-context*. Why do you keep ignoring that and just keep repeating the same thing over and over again? I'm not interested in what happened behind the scenes for the reasons why they made a change. I already know that. I'm interested how they explain the change FOR THE CONTEXT OF THE STORY.

And as soon as you say they don't need to explain it you claim it'd be explained in one of three ways...? Regardless, I already know how they might go about explaining it, seeing as I've already said as much. My point is that I'd like to see it explained.

The problem here is the fandom who needs to have everything fit together while being unable to get over yesterday's damned comics.

It's called continuity, and that isn't a problem with the fandom. Having everything fit together is a part of good story telling.

Really? So, "Earth 2" is a new thing? But, doesn't "Earth 2" tie in with the main DC Earth? And, wasn't that written after "Flashpoint"? And, hey, it looks like there never was a Justice Society in the post "Flashpoint" timeline.

This Earth 2 is a new thing, yes. It's a new Earth 2 universe created as a result of "Flashpoint". And it has been loooooonnnnnnng established characters have been able to interact with other universes in the DC multiverse, so it shouldn't be that surprising Earth 2 would tie-in with the main DC universe. They're sorta going back to pre-CoIE standards here. You should know that already Dom.

Along similar lines, current Earth 2 looks nothing like the Earth 2 that was revealed at the end of "52", which was changed for its appearances in "JSA".

Because "Flashpoint" somehow altered more than just the main DC universe here. We know some other universes were merged together seeing as characters from Stormwatch are now a part of the main DC universe. And clearly some were separated considering characters like Alan Scott and Jay Garrick are no longer in the main DC universe. That Earth 2 is not this Earth 2.

Dude, you are deliberately misunderstanding what I wrote. Fucking stop. Most, if not all of Dixon's run with Robin has been over-written. Just stop trying to find the exception to the general rule.

I'm not deliberately misunderstanding anything here. You're trying to say things don't count with the New 52 when you frankly don't know. DC has not outlined the history for the New 52 to be able to say with any certainty of what has been over-written or not. While we might be able to figure out some stories no longer count based on what has been revealed, that doesn't speak for all of them. So stop trying to say what has been over-written when you don't know for sure one way or another. Just because Tim Drake went by the name Red Robin instead of Robin does not mean those stories with him as Robin did not happen.

[Dominic]

It may be. It also got cancelled pretty fast. That's no indication of quality, but it clearly didn't sell for whatever reason.

So far, it is good. And, the fact it was cancelled means you only need to worry about one compilation.

Inferior versions of characters, bad dialogue, and a plot that seems to have ripped off the current Animal Man and Swamp Thing. The new costumes are not to my liking, and the changes to the characters aren't either. You enjoy the book if it suits you, but it's just a bad remake as far as I'm concerned.

The plot does mirror "Animal Man". But, it is playing out much differently, and in only one book. But, these are not the same characters at all beyond name. They are so far removed from the original characters that there is no point in trying to reconcile them. And, that is fine. This book is about a new batch of characters trying to pick up the pieces after the big 3 got killed off. And, it is an ongoing book, not a one-shot.

I was a huge collector once I found the shop, and bought 15-20 titles a month until Emerald Twilight and Zero Hour made me disgusted enough with DC to mostly break the habit (a parallel with the modern day in some ways... even back then I wasn't happy about what DC did to the JSA!).

Why not? The characters were old. It was kind of stupid to see them running around and fighting crime in their 70s. I liked that early 90s "Justice Society of America" book. But, I was not going to get bent out of shape when they got killed off. (I was more annoyed when the team came back from the drubbing they got in "Zero Hour".)

If a story is part of an ongoing storyline you can't just make changes to that storyline without reconciling it with what they've already established in it. Something needs to explain it one way or another.

The new 52 is effectively *new*. The old stuff is no longer ongoing.

This Earth 2 is a new thing, yes. It's a new Earth 2 universe created as a result of "Flashpoint". And it has been loooooonnnnnnng established characters have been able to interact with other universes in the DC multiverse, so it shouldn't be that surprising Earth 2 would tie-in with the main DC universe. They're sorta going back to pre-CoIE standards here. You should know that already Dom.

You not only missed the point, but you have given O6 a chance to be quotable.

That Earth 2 is not this Earth 2.

Yeah, that Earth 2 is gone. It has been written out. We do not need to worry about it. It need not be explained.

I'll have to do that sometime. But you're saying it's the medium that's the problem then, the fact that the books have to be read rather than watched? That's sad. I know the literacy rate in SC is poor. My aunt used to work with adult literacy programs, teaching people to read. I've always been a big reader. So has my wife, and our daughters have picked up the habit as well, so it's easy to forget that a lot of people aren't in the same boat.

Yup. Reading. And, it is not just limited to comics.

I have always been a big reader myself. (Thanks mom.) I learned to read early, (maybe 4 or so), and was reading on my own by maybe 6 or 7. Comics played a role in that. But, I was also reading books, (albeit kiddie crap). By age 11, I had read "the Art of War" and "Zoo of the Gods". But, I was in a minority.

I do not have the figures in front of me. But, I am fairly certain that the northeast US (New England and New York) is the most literate part of the country, with parts of the west coast following not too far behind. I live in one of the most literate *cities* in the US, and I am considered a big reader by many people, even accounting for the fact that I work and attend classes on a college campus. (This past fall, the school's "one book" program focused on....a movie.)

Book sales are sluggish all around. Every year, survey after survey shows a decline in discretionary reading. This is across the board, including fiction and non-fiction.

This is not sad. It is a recipe for fucking disaster. (And, I am not even getting in to "informational literacy".)



Dom
-has more blood curdling stories....

[Sparky Prime]

The new 52 is effectively *new*. The old stuff is no longer ongoing.

Are you really going back to that, again? Some of the old stuff *is still ongoing* in the new 52. It's not the 'brand new 52'. No matter how you try to justify it, this is not a new continuity here.

You not only missed the point, but you have given O6 a chance to be quotable.

Then what is your point? Because all you seem to be doing is repeating yourself while ignoring everything I point out to you.

Yeah, that Earth 2 is gone. It has been written out. We do not need to worry about it. It need not be explained.

We need not worry about it because they have already provided an explanation by the events of "Flashpoint" merging and separating a couple of universes...

[BWprowl]

Then what is your point? Because all you seem to be doing is repeating yourself while ignoring everything I point out to you.

I know! It's like you guys are arguing on an internet forum or something!

We need not worry about it because they have already provided an explanation by the events of "Flashpoint" merging and separating a couple of universes...

Okay, okay, I *really* didn't want to pick this up again, but you saying this means I have to: So...why is 'Flashpoint' an acceptable explanation for the Earth 2 thing, but unacceptable for Carol not being Queen Violet Lantern to the point that you have to make up your own, unofficial explanation instead?

[andersonh1]

Why not? The characters were old. It was kind of stupid to see them running around and fighting crime in their 70s.

Why? You can suspend disbelief when it comes to people flying, dodging bullets or running at the speed of light, but not when it comes to old guys being superheroes? That doesn't make any sense.

I liked that early 90s "Justice Society of America" book. But, I was not going to get bent out of shape when they got killed off.

I did. A lot more so than I am now about Earth-2, actually.

[Onslaught Six]

The new 52 is effectively *new*. The old stuff is no longer ongoing.

Are you really going back to that, again? Some of the old stuff *is still ongoing* in the new 52. It's not the 'brand new 52'. No matter how you try to justify it, this is not a new continuity here.

Except it is! Some of it's the same, but a lot of it's changed and is totally different now. Some of it even gets retconned on the go.

I don't know why this is so hard to accept--that maybe some elements of the universe would carry over, but others would be wholesale forgotten or overwritten without explanation. And honestly, that's the way it SHOULD be done if they're going to bother retconning crap. It's better than Peter Parker making a retcon deal with the devil.

Think of it like this shit: When Batman Year One happened, Frank Miller made Gordon's firstborn a son, when in previous continuity, it was his daughter. They didn't bother to explain it. It simply was.

[Sparky Prime]

Okay, okay, I *really* didn't want to pick this up again, but you saying this means I have to: So...why is 'Flashpoint' an acceptable explanation for the Earth 2 thing, but unacceptable for Carol not being Queen Violet Lantern to the point that you have to make up your own, unofficial explanation instead?

.... Ok, I'll explain this one more time then...

I never said "Flashpoint" couldn't be an acceptable reason for Carol no longer being Queen of the Star Sapphire's. In fact, I have said as much is possible. What I said is that it need not be the result of a universal altering event, and that not everything is explained as a 'reboot did it' (Batgirl as the given example with the same event). As I said in the first post, Carol could *just as easily* quit being Queen. She really isn't even that interested in being a Star Sapphire, except when Hal is in trouble. That fits with with the storyline in a story that really was not altered that much (if at all) by "Flashpoint" in the first place. What I meant when I said I didn't accept "Flashpoint" as the reason is because, DC has not given that as the official reason here, and *I would prefer* something a bit more creative that fits with the storyline rather than hand wave it away as a big universal change that may or may not have effected this change. There is no reason to just assume "Flashpoint" did it where there are some other in-story possibilities for it. I have a right to that *opinion* until/unless DC actually gives us an official explanation that says otherwise. You've been misunderstanding that point and accusing me of things I did not actually say every step of the way since the start of this discussion.

As for Earth 2... how else would you explain a new universe coming out of no where right after a universe altering event? The only logical explanation there is that events from "Flashpoint" somehow created that universe.

Except it is!

Except it isn't! Allow me to demonstrate...

Some of it's the same

Exactly. Some of it is the same because it's the same continuity that has been altered to a degree by an event that took place within that continuity. I don't know why that's so hard for some of you guys to understand. Nothing changes the fact this is still the same continuity, regardless that they have changed some things about it.

Think of it like this shit: When Batman Year One happened, Frank Miller made Gordon's firstborn a son, when in previous continuity, it was his daughter. They didn't bother to explain it. It simply was.

Year One is a story that took place after CoIE, which was used to consolidate and re-establish Batman's history after that event... That's the explanation there.

[Onslaught Six]

Year One is a story that took place after CoIE, which was used to consolidate and re-establish Batman's history after that event... That's the explanation there.