Comics are Awesome II

A general discussion forum, plus hauls and silly games.
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BWprowl
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by BWprowl »

Sparky Prime wrote:Can't blame fans for not wanting to see their favorite characters killed off.
Sure you can. The character dying in-universe doesn’t automatically cause every copy of fans’ favorite stories featuring that character to go up in flames or something, they can still go back and read the decades of stories those characters were in if they want to enjoy their antics. You don’t see me raging against the heavens because actors I really liked the work of died. You just accept it and enjoy what there is.
Diversity doesn't have to be another Green Lantern though. Of which John is African American and Kyle is half Hispanic.
The thing about Green Lanterns though is that they work *really* well for this sort of stunt, just because of how they work. Sure, DC could’ve introduced a brand-new superhero who was a Muslim, but they probably don’t want another Aztek on their hands. They sure as hell can’t kill off Superman or The Flash and replace them with a Muslim, and doing it with someone like Wildcat or Dr. Fate wouldn’t be a *big deal* enough to garner the publicity they needed. But ‘Green Lantern’ is decently well-known as a flagship DC property, AND just happens to be a brand-name identity that can be assumed by just about anybody, so dropping Hal down a trapdoor for the time being as an excuse to bring in a new Green Lantern who just happens to be ethnically diverse and culturally relevant is totally something they can do, all thanks to the way the ‘Green Lantern’ character works!
Not true. They have made references to Brightest Day in the New 52, so we do know that story still happened. Although as Dom points out, with some of the changes made to some characters it must have happened a little differently. But that doesn't mean Carol wasn't made Queen seeing as the story still happened. And your Batman movie example really wouldn't apply here because as you said, those are two different canons from one another. The New 52 is not an entirely new canon from before the reboot. Many of the things that happened before do still apply here.
So do you also imagine your own explanation for why everyone acts like Tim Drake was never an actual Robin now, or why Jay Garrick and Alan Scott only exist now on an alternate Earth with completely new personalities?

I would argue that it *is* an entirely new canon, it just necessarily has some similarities to the canon that was running before it. It’s like the reboot between the ‘Spider-Man’ and ‘Amazing Spider-Man’ movies. A lot of the same shit happens in both of them because it concerns iterations of the same character, but they’re still functionally independent from one-another. DC was one series of comics that wrapped itself up, with New 52 being the total relaunch that restarted everything with its own backstory and set of rules.
Key phrase there: For the time being. They don't need to explain that because it hasn't even come up yet but we don't know if that's something that might still come up or not. Doesn't mean it didn't happen just because for right now they haven't talked about it.
You sure they haven’t talked about it? What about the part where they say “The whole universe reset so some things are different now”?
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Sparky Prime »

BWprowl wrote:Sure you can. The character dying in-universe doesn’t automatically cause every copy of fans’ favorite stories featuring that character to go up in flames or something, they can still go back and read the decades of stories those characters were in if they want to enjoy their antics. You don’t see me raging against the heavens because actors I really liked the work of died. You just accept it and enjoy what there is.
Right, because fans don't want to see the stories with their favorite characters continue. They'll just be happy with the past stories they've already read. And it's totally different with real life actors. Comic book characters can be ageless, actors obviously are not. Although when Heath Ledger died, I remember a lot of people saying what a shame it was he died so young and to think about all he could have done with his career.
The thing about Green Lanterns though is that they work *really* well for this sort of stunt, just because of how they work. Sure, DC could’ve introduced a brand-new superhero who was a Muslim, but they probably don’t want another Aztek on their hands. They sure as hell can’t kill off Superman or The Flash and replace them with a Muslim, and doing it with someone like Wildcat or Dr. Fate wouldn’t be a *big deal* enough to garner the publicity they needed. But ‘Green Lantern’ is decently well-known as a flagship DC property, AND just happens to be a brand-name identity that can be assumed by just about anybody, so dropping Hal down a trapdoor for the time being as an excuse to bring in a new Green Lantern who just happens to be ethnically diverse and culturally relevant is totally something they can do, all thanks to the way the ‘Green Lantern’ character works!
Well in terms of it being a stunt, you're right.
So do you also imagine your own explanation for why everyone acts like Tim Drake was never an actual Robin now, or why Jay Garrick and Alan Scott only exist now on an alternate Earth with completely new personalities?
Why would I? Those are things that can only be explained by the reboot because those are some *major changes* to those characters history. Carol not being Queen of the Star Spahhires anymore after she had the role for about half a storyline before the reboot came along? Not so much. That's just easily explained as her simply quitting that role off panel. It's not necessarily something that the reboot changed here at all.
I would argue that it *is* an entirely new canon, it just necessarily has some similarities to the canon that was running before it. It’s like the reboot between the ‘Spider-Man’ and ‘Amazing Spider-Man’ movies. A lot of the same shit happens in both of them because it concerns iterations of the same character, but they’re still functionally independent from one-another. DC was one series of comics that wrapped itself up, with New 52 being the total relaunch that restarted everything with its own backstory and set of rules.
This is not like they just totally reset everything like they've done with so many of the movie franchises though. With this, there is an in-context explanation for what happened, what caused things to change. Flash messed with the time line. That makes it the *same* canon, not an entirely new one.
You sure they haven’t talked about it? What about the part where they say “The whole universe reset so some things are different now”?
I don't read Batgirl so I can't say for sure, but as far as I know, Cass and Steph haven't been mentioned in the New 52 at all, as of yet. And again, the whole universe has not been reset here. Some things may be different but some things are still certainly the same. Barbara was still shot and paralyzed by the Joker. She still became Oracle for a few years. Then she got better and returned to her role as Batgirl. So her walking again isn't the result of the reboot. That's something that they explain happening independently of the reboot. And we have no idea where the other two Batgirls fit in because they simply have not gone into it.
Last edited by Sparky Prime on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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BWprowl wrote:Sure you can. The character dying in-universe doesn’t automatically cause every copy of fans’ favorite stories featuring that character to go up in flames or something, they can still go back and read the decades of stories those characters were in if they want to enjoy their antics.
Indeed, that's what Anderson did and it seems to be working out well for him.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Shockwave wrote:Indeed, that's what Anderson did and it seems to be working out well for him.
And look at how pissed off he was for the changes they made to the characters with the reboot...
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BWprowl
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by BWprowl »

Sparky Prime wrote:Right, because fans don't want to see the stories with their favorite characters continue. They'll just be happy with the past stories they've already read. And it's totally different with real life actors. Comic book characters can be ageless, actors obviously are not. Although when Heath Ledger died, I remember a lot of people saying what a shame it was he died so young and to think about all he could have done with his career.
Leave it to comic book fans to act like they were the ones who were wronged after someone else died.
Why would I? Those are things that can only be explained by the reboot because those are some *major changes* to those characters history. Carol not being Queen of the Star Spahhires anymore after she had the role for about half a storyline before the reboot came along? Not so much. That's just easily explained as her simply quitting that role off panel. It's not necessarily something that the reboot changed here at all.
We're going in circles here (surprise surprise), but when you've got a big cosmic event that happened that changed the entire universe, doesn't that work just fine as an explanation for why some things are different now? Why do you need the 'extra' explanation when the cosmic reset button is already right there as a catch-all Wizard That Did It for any differences you might encounter?
This is not like they just totally reset everything like they've done with so many of the movie franchises though. With this, there is an in-context explanation for what happened, what caused things to change. Flash messed with the time line. That makes it the *same* canon, not an entirely new one.
Exactly: There is an in-context explanation for any and all changes to the characters/stories that there are now. You don't need to imagine up *another* in-context explanation.
I don't read Batgirl so I can't say for sure, but as far as I know, Cass and Steph haven't been mentioned in the New 52 at all, as of yet. And again, the whole universe has not been reset here. Some things may be different but some things are still certainly the same. Barbara was still shot and paralyzed by the Joker. She still became Oracle for a few years. Then she got better and returned to her role as Batgirl. So her walking again isn't the result of the reboot. That's something that they explain happening independently of the reboot. And we have no idea where the other two Batgirls fit in because they simply have not gone into it.
Or you know what? Never mind. Because I don't even know what to say to the above assertion. If you can actually sit there, and seriously, unironically tell me that you believe that Barbara getting her legs back and being Batgirl had nothing to do with the reboot, then we shouldn't even be having this conversation. I *can't* have this conversation.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Shockwave wrote:Indeed, that's what Anderson did and it seems to be working out well for him.
And look at how pissed off he was for the changes they made to the characters with the reboot...
Which is what caused him to go back and read the retro comics to begin with. (Prowl's right, we ARE going in circles here) :?
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Sparky Prime »

BWprowl wrote:Leave it to comic book fans to act like they were the ones who were wronged after someone else died.
That wasn't comic book fans. That was just people in general who were sad to see Heath Ledger had died. The horror of it all, expressing they're disappointed they'll never see him make another movie because of how good of an actor he was along with that. :roll:
We're going in circles here (surprise surprise), but when you've got a big cosmic event that happened that changed the entire universe, doesn't that work just fine as an explanation for why some things are different now? Why do you need the 'extra' explanation when the cosmic reset button is already right there as a catch-all Wizard That Did It for any differences you might encounter?
You keep saying it changed the entire universe. It did not. It changed *some* things but certainly not everything. And I *did* say it's possible it was because of the reboot, but not everything that has changed is simply explained away as being because of the reboot here. Some of things can or do have an in-context explanation. I don't see why you're so eager to push for 'a wizard did it' particularly when not everything has been reset here like you keep saying. And I just prefer a little more thought and creativity put into things than that. You make that out to be a bad thing when it's not.
Exactly: There is an in-context explanation for any and all changes to the characters/stories that there are now. You don't need to imagine up *another* in-context explanation.
As I keep saying here, not everything that has been changed is going to be explained away as being directly the result of the reboot. Some of these things they actually do give an in-context explanation for, as I'll point out below with Batgirl...
Or you know what? Never mind. Because I don't even know what to say to the above assertion. If you can actually sit there, and seriously, unironically tell me that you believe that Barbara getting her legs back and being Batgirl had nothing to do with the reboot, then we shouldn't even be having this conversation. I *can't* have this conversation.
So I take it then you haven't followed the Batgirl title too closely yourself? Because no, her being able to walk again in the New 52 was not explained as simply the reboot did it. They explain in issue #4 she underwent a medical procedure in South Africa that fixed her spine which is what gave her the ability to walk again. OMG, an in-context explanation for something! DC must be trippin for actually creatively explaining something rather than just leaving it for the reboot to magically explain away.
Shockwave wrote:Which is what caused him to go back and read the retro comics to begin with. (Prowl's right, we ARE going in circles here)
My point being that andersonh1 did not accept the change as BWprowl suggested. He started reading the retro comics because he wasn't happy with reading the alternative and rejected it. Little bit more understanding from people who aren't even reading these comics would go a long way in this conversation...
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Shockwave wrote:Which is what caused him to go back and read the retro comics to begin with. (Prowl's right, we ARE going in circles here)
My point being that andersonh1 did not accept the change as BWprowl suggested. He started reading the retro comics because he wasn't happy with reading the alternative and rejected it. Little bit more understanding from people who aren't even reading these comics would go a long way in this conversation...
Except Prowl never suggested that. He was saying that people who don't like characters either having died or changed to drastically can still enjoy stories from when they did like that characters. And I was just pointing out that we have an example right here on our own boards of someone who did just that and still seems to be enjoying the comic book hobby as a result.
BWprowl wrote:
Sparky Prime wrote:Can't blame fans for not wanting to see their favorite characters killed off.
Sure you can. The character dying in-universe doesn’t automatically cause every copy of fans’ favorite stories featuring that character to go up in flames or something, they can still go back and read the decades of stories those characters were in if they want to enjoy their antics.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Sparky Prime »

Shockwave wrote:Except Prowl never suggested that. He was saying that people who don't like characters either having died or changed to drastically can still enjoy stories from when they did like that characters. And I was just pointing out that we have an example right here on our own boards of someone who did just that and still seems to be enjoying the comic book hobby as a result.
That's only part of what BWprowl said. He also said you can blame fans who don't want to see their favorite characters killed off and compared it to not "raging against the heavens" when a favorite actor dies (which I notice you conveniently left off in the quote there). So no, he is suggesting there that people shouldn't get pissed off when one of their favorite characters is killed off/changed and just accept it. But andersonh1 was clearly angry about the changes they made to the Earth 2 characters wasn't he?
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Onslaught Six »

Yeah...and he stopped reading because of it. The logical solution, I guess.

And dude...you can't seriously say that Barbara being Batgirl again and a company-wide massive reboot aren't related in the least. Story bullshit or not: The reason that happened was because of the New 52. If that hadn't happened, Oracle would still be there.

It'd be like pretending that Han Solo wasn't turned into carbonite as a way to write him out of Star Wars in case he wasn't going to come back for ROTJ. That is literally the only reason that happens in the storyline. It's why Han getting out and being okay is literally the first thing that happens in ROTJ, and why it's completely un-fucking-related to the rest of the movie. Seriously!
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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