TF Views

BWprowl wrote:Man, if you'd ever watched any shounen fighting anime, you'd know that training arcs need to be as short and economical as possible. We do not need to draw out a long story about how Kyle HAS TO GET STROOOOOONGEEEEEEER!!

I seem to recall Yu Yu Hakusho having Yusuke win a tournament arc where the prize was to train with some witch or other. Then the next episode is set literally a year later. Yusuke comes back and suddenly has fucktons of new powers and abilities. They don't even explain most of them! It's hilarious and economic. (Better than DBZ's multiple "Goku gets hurt and has to recover and magically get better" episodes.)

BWprowl wrote:To prove that they aren't racists. By...introducing one of the most hilariously stereotyped Muslim characters they could've come up with. Hey, I didn't say I understood it either.

Yeah... I don't get the argument. Ok, fine, DC wants to have more diverse characters but it seems like a shoehorned way to introduce yet another Green Lantern of Earth.

Or, y'know, the whole dang universe was rebooted and this is effectively a completely different continuity from the one we had before. There's no reason to come up with an explanation for why a different chick is queen of the Yandere Lanterns when the whole point was that nothing before the reboot counted anymore unless very explicitly stated.

Except it is not a completely different continuity from the one before and the Green Lantern titles in-particular saw very little changes with the New 52 relaunch. Besides, Carol has shown a lack of interest being a Star Sapphire. She's only worn the ring when Hal's in trouble. So it makes sense she probably declined being the Queen of the Star Sapphires in the context of the story with out saying it's a result of a reboot.

Man, if you'd ever watched any shounen fighting anime, you'd know that training arcs need to be as short and economical as possible. We do not need to draw out a long story about how Kyle HAS TO GET STROOOOOONGEEEEEEER!!

Have you watched any Dragonball Z lately? The majority of the series involves someone training, either to get ready for a tournament or battle some opponent. Or even that they've got nothing else better to do.

But I'm thinking more in terms of the "Avatar: The Last Airbender" series. Some elements Aang gets right away, like Water Bending, while others he has a hard time with, like Earth Bending. But even once he figures out how to do it, it's not like he's instantly a master of the element. We see him slowly getting better at it over time. Granted, I don't expect them to drag it out that much here in a comic book, but it would be nice to see more of a struggle for Kyle to learn these powers. Like with Fear. A Green Lantern is all about overcoming Fear, so having spent so many years as a Green Lantern, I'd think it would be difficult for him to learn to give into his fears in order to tap into the Yellow light. But instead all he has to do is admit he is afraid and suddenly it's no problem for him to use Yellow, even beating Arkillo with it who has a lot more experience with it.

Sparky Prime wrote:Yeah... I don't get the argument. Ok, fine, DC wants to have more diverse characters but it seems like a shoehorned way to introduce yet another Green Lantern of Earth.

You've got it backwards. Introducing yet another Green Lantern of Earth is a way to shoehorn in a more diverse character.

Except it is not a completely different continuity from the one before and the Green Lantern titles in-particular saw very little changes with the New 52 relaunch. Besides, Carol has shown a lack of interest being a Star Sapphire. She's only worn the ring when Hal's in trouble. So it makes sense she probably declined being the Queen of the Star Sapphires in the context of the story with out saying it's a result of a reboot.

Dude, my point is that you *don't need* to expend creative energy coming up with some off-panel explanation for why Carol isn't Love-Queen of the Universe anymore, since it already has a valid, canon explanation: The entire universe reset.

Have you watched any Dragonball Z lately? The majority of the series involves someone training, either to get ready for a tournament or battle some opponent. Or even that they've got nothing else better to do.

...Yes? That was my entire point, that long, drawn-out training arcs are serious weak points of a lot of shounen action shows, and if you'd seen them you would realize that and not be wanting *longer* training storylines from your Green Lantern comics.

But I'm thinking more in terms of the "Avatar: The Last Airbender" series. Some elements Aang gets right away, like Water Bending, while others he has a hard time with, like Earth Bending. But even once he figures out how to do it, it's not like he's instantly a master of the element. We see him slowly getting better at it over time. Granted, I don't expect them to drag it out that much here in a comic book, but it would be nice to see more of a struggle for Kyle to learn these powers.

One thing I dug about Avatar was its pacing, even in the face of something as dreaded as a training arc. I think back to that first-season episode where Aang first tries to learn Fire Bending. It has him and his friends arrive in a new town, learn about the possibility of being taught the art, search out the potential teacher, convince them to train him, spend several days training, master a couple techniques, reach a roadblock, Learn a Lesson about said roadblock, then a main bad guy appears, launches an attack, and Aang confronts him and beats him, using what he learned in the training. That would've been a whole *season* in something like Bleach, and ATLA did it in one episode, all without feeling too rushed, miraculously.

BWprowl wrote:You've got it backwards. Introducing yet another Green Lantern of Earth is a way to shoehorn in a more diverse character.

Same diff. Point being we already have 4 GL's from Earth, and I don't think we really need another one. Every other Sector has at most 2 Green Lanterns, and they aren't normally even from the same planet. Why does 2814/Earth get 5?

Dude, my point is that you *don't need* to expend creative energy coming up with some off-panel explanation for why Carol isn't Love-Queen of the Universe anymore, since it already has a valid, canon explanation: The entire universe reset.

I don't accept "the entire universe reset" as a valid canon explanation when not everything was reset and especially with a comic that wasn't really changed at all by the relaunch in the first place. Carol simply not accepting the position is a much better and logical reason.

...Yes? That was my entire point, that long, drawn-out training arcs are serious weak points of a lot of shounen action shows, and if you'd seen them you would realize that and not be wanting *longer* training storylines from your Green Lantern comics.

Ah, I thought you were saying it should be short like those shows, not that it needs to be short unlike them. But yeah, that isn't the type of training storyline I'm talking about. I agree it shouldn't be drawn out like that, but I feel like it's missing some substance here with how relatively easy Kyle is learning how to use the other powers.

One thing I dug about Avatar was its pacing, even in the face of something as dreaded as a training arc. I think back to that first-season episode where Aang first tries to learn Fire Bending. It has him and his friends arrive in a new town, learn about the possibility of being taught the art, search out the potential teacher, convince them to train him, spend several days training, master a couple techniques, reach a roadblock, Learn a Lesson about said roadblock, then a main bad guy appears, launches an attack, and Aang confronts him and beats him, using what he learned in the training. That would've been a whole *season* in something like Bleach, and ATLA did it in one episode, all without feeling too rushed, miraculously.

Yeah. I was thinking about the episode in the second season where Toph starts teaching Aang Earth Bending. Which really isn't all that dissimilar from that episode now that I think of it. Aang tries to move a rock but hits a roadblock, particularly because Earth Bending is the opposite of Air Bending which is his natural element. So we get a bit of a montage of Toph taking Aang through some exercises instead, while other things happen with other characters. By the end, Aang his frustrated he can't get past this roadblock and a situation presents itself that forces him to get past it. Although Toph still points out that because he's knew at it, she should Earth Bend Sokka out of the ground. That's the sort of thing I want to see with Kyle learning to use the other colors in the spectrum. More of a struggle for Kyle to be learning how to use the other colors of the spectrum, and not treating it like he's already mastered it just because he's figured out how to use it. That's not to say I think they should take a long time in telling the story showing Kyle training with each color... Just like with The Last Airbender, I think they could do it with just one issue/episode, but they make it seem a little too easy for Kyle to master these other powers.

Sparky Prime wrote:

BWprowl wrote:You've got it backwards. Introducing yet another Green Lantern of Earth is a way to shoehorn in a more diverse character.

Same diff. Point being we already have 4 GL's from Earth, and I don't think we really need another one. Every other Sector has at most 2 Green Lanterns, and they aren't normally even from the same planet. Why does 2814/Earth get 5?

Well, Earthlings are the main audience for this comic. If you have any idea of how DC could introduce a diversified Muslim Green Lantern without having him be a human from Earth, I'd love to hear it.

I don't accept "the entire universe reset" as a valid canon explanation when not everything was reset and especially with a comic that wasn't really changed at all by the relaunch in the first place. Carol simply not accepting the position is a much better and logical reason.

But...the universe resetting thing IS the valid canon explanation for it! That's, like, the official reason it happened, whether you 'accept' it or not is irrelevant.

I mean, I'm not even reading the comic, I should point out, I just find it increasingly ridiculous at how insistent you are in seeing the story give you a concrete, clear-cut reason a change was made, and going "No, I've got a better idea" and *imagining* that better idea is the thing that happened instead of the thing that actually happened that you already read about and know happened. Look, if you don't like the change they made from Carol being the Stalker Lantern Queen to it being some blue chick, that's fine, that's a valid criticism of the comic to put in the review and you should just say "Hey they made this change and it was stupid", but to go from there and say "But that's okay because in my imagination while I was reading the comic the story made sense with my own alternate explanation that has nothing to do with the official explanation that I don't like" is just...I mean.... I can't, I can't, I can't...I can't.

BWprowl wrote:Well, Earthlings are the main audience for this comic. If you have any idea of how DC could introduce a diversified Muslim Green Lantern without having him be a human from Earth, I'd love to hear it.

No, I mean why another Green Lantern? We have 5 human Green Lanterns now. Seems like eventually Earth will have its own Green Lantern Corps at this rate.

But...the universe resetting thing IS the valid canon explanation for it! That's, like, the official reason it happened, whether you 'accept' it or not is irrelevant.

There is *no* canon explanation at this point. They don't explain why Carol isn't the Queen one way or another. Sure it's *possible* changes from the reboot is why, but that doesn't mean that it is, and no reason to assume as much. Given Carol's attitude towards being a Star Sapphire, it's also possible they could say she just decided not to stay their Queen. Or the other Zamarons overruled her. Or whatever. But there is no official word here at all. So no, there is no reason for me to accept it's the result of the reboot, because we frankly don't know if it is or isn't.

I mean, I'm not even reading the comic, I should point out, I just find it increasingly ridiculous at how insistent you are in seeing the story give you a concrete, clear-cut reason a change was made, and going "No, I've got a better idea" and *imagining* that better idea is the thing that happened instead of the thing that actually happened that you already read about and know happened.

I'm not the one saying it is concrete like you seem to be here. The story gives zero indication why she isn't Queen. That doesn't automatically mean it is because of the reboot though. There can just as easily be an in story explanation, which is why in my initial post I specifically said "I can easily see..." meaning it's my *opinion* this is what *could* have happened. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen something like this in a comic that was later explained... Such as in Spider-Man's "The Other" story line: in one issue we see MJ's arm broken, and the next she's perfectly fine. The fans complained and so at the conclusion of the story, Peter asks Tony Stark about it and he explains he has some tech that healed her almost instantly, and then both he and Peter give an annoyed look at the audience in the next panel. It's actually pretty funny.

Nothing is set in stone when it comes to comics. Nothing. But until/unless they actually explain it, there is no reason to just *assume* the reboot changed it. Especially when the reboot changed so little about the Green Lantern titles.

Look, if you don't like the change they made from Carol being the Stalker Lantern Queen to it being some blue chick, that's fine, that's a valid criticism of the comic to put in the review and you should just say "Hey they made this change and it was stupid", but to go from there and say "But that's okay because in my imagination while I was reading the comic the story made sense with my own alternate explanation that has nothing to do with the official explanation that I don't like" is just...I mean.... I can't, I can't, I can't...I can't.

I am allowed to express my opinions of how it could be explained within the context of the story with out blindly assuming a reboot did it. And then pointing out that I don't have to accept the assumption it was the reboot when there is *no official canon* that established what happened there. If you want to assume it was the reboot, that's perfectly fine, but you can't say that's the official reason if they haven't explained that in the text to establish it as canon.

I haven't read any of the titles you guys are discussing, but simply from the perspective of good storytelling, I think I get where Sparky Prime's coming from.

A universe reset may be the official event, but it doesn't constitute a direct cause-and-effect mechanic to explain the change in Carol Denvers' role. It's shoddy storytelling in that the change was slipped in conveniently when it might have been possible, with some creative effort, to do something more substantial for the character.

Similarly with what you guys have been saying about Kyle (Rayner?) using yellow fear powers. Training arcs present great opportunities for character development and even (near) permanent shifts in personality, especially when you're dealing with a subject as intimately impactful as personal fear. And it seems that opportunity to build up Kyle as character was missed. And the payoff, apparently, wasn't that great either, as Kyle didn't end up as some special or unique yellow lantern with substantially unique abilities to redefine him (which is what most mangas' training arcs try to do as a means of character development). Instead, Kyle apparently just learns how to use the ring as a regular yellow.

The Aang example, I think, falls into a different category, because, before he even began his training, you already know what the end result was intended to be, because that's the basic plotline that was established from the start - that he learns all 4 elemental bendings by the end of the story.

Avatar never intended to make you go, "oh, so what awesome new kickass skillz does he gain from this beatdown?" Hence, the onus in storytelling here was to make his journey as substantial as possible. We know where he's destined to go, there's no surprise reveal waiting at the end to reward our devoted following of the journey. The only reason we would want to follow on this journey is to see what he sees along the way, and it better be a darn good tour or we'd want our money back.

I haven't read any of the titles you guys are discussing,

Sounds like you dodged a bullet.

A universe reset may be the official event, but it doesn't constitute a direct cause-and-effect mechanic to explain the change in Carol Denvers' role. It's shoddy storytelling in that the change was slipped in conveniently when it might have been possible, with some creative effort, to do something more substantial for the character.

When there is a big change in status quo during or near to a big reset event like "Flashpoint", it can just as easily mean that the results of the change were "always there". It is not unreasonable to assume that Carol Danvers was never a Saphire.

Yeah... I don't get the argument. Ok, fine, DC wants to have more diverse characters but it seems like a shoehorned way to introduce yet another Green Lantern of Earth.

Because comics fans are spoiled children. Comics fans cannot let go of their cherished favourites. So, when a character gets replaced, even temporarily, the original has to come back. And, when the original ends up coming back, the fans of the newer character get all bent out of shape and start pitching fantrums. The publishers end up keeping both of them. For various reasons, this is especially problematic in the Green Lantern book.

-Hal
-Guy
-John
-Kyle
-Baz

And, in a few years, Baz will be replaced, but Baz will not go away.

Hal should have stayed dead. Guy should have stayed Warrior or died. John should have stayed crippled. And, DC wanted to bring in Baz, they should have aced Kyle. But, "no, Hal is precious and Kyle is too awesome a character to get rid of ".

Well, Earthlings are the main audience for this comic. If you have any idea of how DC could introduce a diversified Muslim Green Lantern without having him be a human from Earth, I'd love to hear it.

Exactly. In real terms, "diversity" means "people from different parts of the world and/or from different backgrounds", not "aliens from different planets".

But...the universe resetting thing IS the valid canon explanation for it! That's, like, the official reason it happened, whether you 'accept' it or not is irrelevant.

Has DC actually accounted for it? We know that large amounts of back story were changed, if only by virtue of a ripple effect. Changes to DC's past have changed the back story of characters like Hawk and Dove. There was only 1 "Crisis" event, but there are characters who origins are tied to multiple "Crisis" events running around. Their origins are changed. Changes to Firestorm mean that at least some of "Blackest Night" no longer counts. And.....you get the idea. The old JSA books are completely over-written, which is going to change all manner of things that DC has not explicitly addressed. The Charlton based Freedom Fighters are most likely gone, leaving use with a second iteration of the Palmiotti and Grey Freedom Fighters. Again, you get the idea.

An even better example is the lack of an in-story reason for Earth-2's history to have changed so much because of "Flashpoint". Earth's 0, 13 and 50 were merged. But, there is no in-story reason for Earth 2 to have changed as much as it did. And, in real terms, the old Earth 2 was not changed. DC just tossed it, (along with the all pre-"Flashpoint" JSA comics), and is just using the names for a wholly different book. We do not need an in-story explanation for those changes. We just need to accept them and move on.

My gut feeling is that Carol was never a Saphire. But, DC needs to sort it out directly.

Nothing is set in stone when it comes to comics. Nothing. But until/unless they actually explain it, there is no reason to just *assume* the reboot changed it. Especially when the reboot changed so little about the Green Lantern titles.

And, given the changes to Robin, nothing is set in stone....even when it was.



Dom
-notes that many of these problems only exist because some comic fans cannot move the hell on.....

Sparky Prime wrote:There is *no* canon explanation at this point. They don't explain why Carol isn't the Queen one way or another. Sure it's *possible* changes from the reboot is why, but that doesn't mean that it is, and no reason to assume as much. Given Carol's attitude towards being a Star Sapphire, it's also possible they could say she just decided not to stay their Queen. Or the other Zamarons overruled her. Or whatever. But there is no official word here at all. So no, there is no reason for me to accept it's the result of the reboot, because we frankly don't know if it is or isn't.

...I'm not the one saying it is concrete like you seem to be here. The story gives zero indication why she isn't Queen. That doesn't automatically mean it is because of the reboot though. There can just as easily be an in story explanation, which is why in my initial post I specifically said "I can easily see..." meaning it's my *opinion* this is what *could* have happened. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen something like this in a comic that was later explained...

But they don't need to explain why Carol isn't the Queen because the story in which she became Queen technically never happened anymore. It'd be like if 'The Dark Knight' had to have an aside where Batman gave some explanation for how this Joker was a different guy from Jack Napier and isn't the dude who killed his parents. That's...a whole separate, past canon, and explaining 'why' things are different from one version to the other doesn't make any sense. Has the comic referenced the story where Carol became Queen at all since the reboot? No? Then that means that that story, like the rest of the 75 years of comic history it was part of, was wiped out and replaced with something new with the reboot.

I mean, it's not like the current Batgirl comics are going through the trouble of explaining where Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown went and why they gave up their position to Barbara, because they never did that, because those characters aren't around anymore (for the time being), so DC doesn't *need* to explain what happened to them.

annhell wrote:I haven't read any of the titles you guys are discussing, but simply from the perspective of good storytelling, I think I get where Sparky Prime's coming from.

A universe reset may be the official event, but it doesn't constitute a direct cause-and-effect mechanic to explain the change in Carol Denvers' role. It's shoddy storytelling in that the change was slipped in conveniently when it might have been possible, with some creative effort, to do something more substantial for the character.

Similarly with what you guys have been saying about Kyle (Rayner?) using yellow fear powers. Training arcs present great opportunities for character development and even (near) permanent shifts in personality, especially when you're dealing with a subject as intimately impactful as personal fear.

Exactly. And unless/until they explain some changes made to the story, there is no reason to just assume the reboot changed it. Plus her name is Carol Ferris. Denver's is Marvel comics...

Dominic wrote:Because comics fans are spoiled children. Comics fans cannot let go of their cherished favourites. So, when a character gets replaced, even temporarily, the original has to come back.

Can't blame fans for not wanting to see their favorite characters killed off. But that doesn't necessarily mean the original has to come back. I'll admit that's something I think DC has made a mistake with here lately with the original characters returning. I mean, Barry was "dead" for so long, the Flash I grew up with was actually Wally West. It felt natural for DC to kill off characters and have their sidekicks who had grown up take their place, or new characters to be introduced as it was for Kyle.

Exactly. In real terms, "diversity" means "people from different parts of the world and/or from different backgrounds", not "aliens from different planets".

Diversity doesn't have to be another Green Lantern though. Of which John is African American and Kyle is half Hispanic.

My gut feeling is that Carol was never a Saphire.

Carol Ferris is still a Star Sapphire. The question is if she was still made Queen of the Star Sapphires. A position she certainly could have left when she returned to Earth with out saying the reboot changed it.

BWprowl wrote:But they don't need to explain why Carol isn't the Queen because the story in which she became Queen technically never happened anymore. It'd be like if 'The Dark Knight' had to have an aside where Batman gave some explanation for how this Joker was a different guy from Jack Napier and isn't the dude who killed his parents. That's...a whole separate, past canon, and explaining 'why' things are different from one version to the other doesn't make any sense. Has the comic referenced the story where Carol became Queen at all since the reboot? No? Then that means that that story, like the rest of the 75 years of comic history it was part of, was wiped out and replaced with something new with the reboot.

Not true. They have made references to Brightest Day in the New 52, so we do know that story still happened. Although as Dom points out, with some of the changes made to some characters it must have happened a little differently. But as I've pointed out, the Green Lantern titles are among the least effected titles in the New 52, so there is no reason to jump to conclusions what may or may not no longer happened because of the reboot here. And your Batman movie example really wouldn't apply here because as you said, those are two different canons from one another. The New 52 is not an entirely new canon from before the reboot. Many of the things that happened before do still apply here.

I mean, it's not like the current Batgirl comics are going through the trouble of explaining where Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown went and why they gave up their position to Barbara, because they never did that, because those characters aren't around anymore (for the time being), so DC doesn't *need* to explain what happened to them.

Key phrase there: For the time being. They don't need to explain that because it hasn't even come up yet but we don't know if that's something that might still come up or not. Doesn't mean it didn't happen just because for right now they haven't talked about it.