TF Views

Tigermegatron wrote:I suspect the writer & director are trying to show various GRIM REAPER situations. similar to what's shown in various movies like "final destination" & "The time machine." ------> Where it's possible to alter history BUT SADLY ONE CAN'T ESCAPE THE GRIM REAPER & certain key elements like death,injuries,relationships failures,career goals,love,are destined to be played out similar no matter how hard one tries to alter his past,present or future.

No, they needed Kirk to be in command of the Enterprise for their story, so Pike had to go. It's pretty much as simple as that.

In the original timeline, Pike commanded the Enterprise for a long time before Kirk took command. Exactly how long is not known, but Spock served with him for over 11 years, as stated in "The Menagerie". Pike was promoted to fleet commander, and he wasn't gunned down by Khan, he was crippled by radiation as he tried to carry people to safety when the reactor on a spacecraft ruptured. He ended up in a wheelchair, and Spock took him to Talos 4, a planet he and Pike had visited where the natives had the mental ability to create illusions that seemed real to those experiencing them. So Pike's ultimate fate was to live to old age, "unfettered by his physical body", with Vena, the woman he had fallen in love with on that planet. That's a lot different than what happened to him in "Into Darkness".

Kirk taking spocks spot & dying of radiation exposure in the 2013 ST 2 movie,Is the writers/directors way of showing that scene was always destined to happen. due to the time interference & history change,the grim reaper still got a body,only it was kirk this time instead of spock. That body the Grim reaper got was always destined to temporary. like I said in my above paragrapgh,This is classic sci-fi writting at it's best taking ques from "the final destination",time machine movie" & other similar movies/novels.

No, the writers were being too cute by half in this case. They took the (highly effective) ending of The Wrath of Khan and re-used it as a huge wink to the fans. Talk about leaning on the fourth wall...

andersonh1 wrote:

Tigermegatron wrote:I suspect the writer & director are trying to show various GRIM REAPER situations. similar to what's shown in various movies like "final destination" & "The time machine." ------> Where it's possible to alter history BUT SADLY ONE CAN'T ESCAPE THE GRIM REAPER & certain key elements like death,injuries,relationships failures,career goals,love,are destined to be played out similar no matter how hard one tries to alter his past,present or future.

No, they needed Kirk to be in command of the Enterprise for their story, so Pike had to go. It's pretty much as simple as that.

In the original timeline, Pike commanded the Enterprise for a long time before Kirk took command. Exactly how long is not known, but Spock served with him for over 11 years, as stated in "The Menagerie". Pike was promoted to fleet commander, and he wasn't gunned down by Khan, he was crippled by radiation as he tried to carry people to safety when the reactor on a spacecraft ruptured. He ended up in a wheelchair, and Spock took him to Talos 4, a planet he and Pike had visited where the natives had the mental ability to create illusions that seemed real to those experiencing them. So Pike's ultimate fate was to live to old age, "unfettered by his physical body", with Vena, the woman he had fallen in love with on that planet. That's a lot different than what happened to him in "Into Darkness".

Kirk taking spocks spot & dying of radiation exposure in the 2013 ST 2 movie,Is the writers/directors way of showing that scene was always destined to happen. due to the time interference & history change,the grim reaper still got a body,only it was kirk this time instead of spock. That body the Grim reaper got was always destined to temporary. like I said in my above paragrapgh,This is classic sci-fi writting at it's best taking ques from "the final destination",time machine movie" & other similar movies/novels.

No, the writers were being too cute by half in this case. They took the (highly effective) ending of The Wrath of Khan and re-used it as a huge wink to the fans. Talk about leaning on the fourth wall...

It's more than that..........

The star trek 2 "into darkness" writers were spoofing other sci-fi fantasy films/novels scientific beliefs. regarding time travel & multi universe dimensional traveling. The belief is that certain key events are always destined to be played out the same or similar no matter how much time travel one does to alter these events.

Sparky Prime wrote:Thought this was interesting... Some images of the models that Admiral Marcus had along with some other props. Apparently QMx, the company that made them for the film, will be making replicas available for the public.

QMx makes the large model Serenity piece from Firefly, the incredible drool-worthy large model Enterprise refit, Warehouse 13 prop replicas, and other pieces. So for them to have made props for the film and then market them is not all that surprising, it's nice that they were asked and could deliver.

Man, I hadn't seen the Vengeance in that much detail, what a horrible design. The hollows in the saucer make no sense and would SIGNIFICANTLY impact structural integrity, the deflector and the bussard collectors all being boxed in is the opposite of what they are meant to do, and I can't imagine what those spheres surrounding the deflector could be (the only thing on another Trek ship that'd even come close is deuterium or antimatter tanks, but putting them on the outside would be a disaster).

That Ring Ship is from an old piece of Trek concept art, reused a few times (including TMP and Enterprise), it looks like it was thrown in as a precursor to warp flight though, which is kinda odd.

JediTricks wrote:Man, I hadn't seen the Vengeance in that much detail, what a horrible design. The hollows in the saucer make no sense and would SIGNIFICANTLY impact structural integrity, the deflector and the bussard collectors all being boxed in is the opposite of what they are meant to do, and I can't imagine what those spheres surrounding the deflector could be (the only thing on another Trek ship that'd even come close is deuterium or antimatter tanks, but putting them on the outside would be a disaster).

I don't see why the Vengeance has a saucer section at all. I mean, for the Enterprise, that space is mostly crew quarters and the like. The Vengeance on the other hand is described as being run mostly on automation and only has a minimum crew. So it wouldn't need that much space for the crew. The deflector actually has retractable bulkheads, that partly covers it after they drop out of warp. I'm guessing it's to help protect the deflector in a battle, although with shields that seems completely unnecessary. It's not always so boxed in at any rate. I didn't notice if the bussard collectors did that or not. The spheres next to the deflector looked to be some kind of weapons platform.

That Ring Ship is from an old piece of Trek concept art, reused a few times (including TMP and Enterprise), it looks like it was thrown in as a precursor to warp flight though, which is kinda odd.

He had other models going all the way back rockets and airplanes as well, so it didn't seem like it was out of place.

Sparky Prime wrote:I don't see why the Vengeance has a saucer section at all. I mean, for the Enterprise, that space is mostly crew quarters and the like. The Vengeance on the other hand is described as being run mostly on automation and only has a minimum crew. So it wouldn't need that much space for the crew. The deflector actually has retractable bulkheads, that partly covers it after they drop out of warp. I'm guessing it's to help protect the deflector in a battle, although with shields that seems completely unnecessary. It's not always so boxed in at any rate. I didn't notice if the bussard collectors did that or not. The spheres next to the deflector looked to be some kind of weapons platform.

Seems like the Vengeance would do better to have a needle-shaped upper hull then, if there is no need for a lot of crew quarters and labs and that sort of thing. But these Abrams movies are all about "what looks cool" first and actual thought second (second being never usually, see the flippy-around phaser for another great example - it's "cinematic!" because you can clearly see when they go from stun to kill, but it's utter fucking nonsense in function). The idea of not having a crew is a real cop-out though, basically saying that when the Vengeance is taken down by our heroes, our heroes didn't kill any innocent crewmembers who were recruited to work it - it's battle droids all over again.

The retractable bulkheads is kinda dumb, not just because they have shields (which you are entirely correct about) but also because it's HALF covered with heavy bulkheads instead of fully covered with light ones. Everything I saw looked like even retracted the bulkheads were boxing in the navigational deflector though, which has a wide path to cover in case of course corrections (and not just at warp, at impulse too).

He had other models going all the way back rockets and airplanes as well, so it didn't seem like it was out of place.

I saw the link to all 20-something QMx models they did, that's how I knew it was a pre-warp ship, it was listed before the Phoenix. The concept is a tad flawed IMO, borrowing from "all the ships named Enterprise" thing from TMP, only this time around it's "over half named Enterprise".

JediTricks wrote:Seems like the Vengeance would do better to have a needle-shaped upper hull then, if there is no need for a lot of crew quarters and labs and that sort of thing. But these Abrams movies are all about "what looks cool" first and actual thought second (second being never usually, see the flippy-around phaser for another great example - it's "cinematic!" because you can clearly see when they go from stun to kill, but it's utter fucking nonsense in function). The idea of not having a crew is a real cop-out though, basically saying that when the Vengeance is taken down by our heroes, our heroes didn't kill any innocent crewmembers who were recruited to work it - it's battle droids all over again.

A needle-shape hull would have been interesting. I remember seeing some concept art for the Enterprise E if it could separate its saucer section, giving the engineering section a very needle-like design like that. Like you say, these movies are about what looks cool regardless of if it makes any sense (you're on the nose with the flippy-phasers). And I get the feeling they wanted the Vengeance to look somewhat similar to the Enterprise, but with more muscle on it. At least the design with holes in the saucer looks better than the "C" shaped saucer shown in some concept art for the film.

The movie takes it a step further with copping-out the crew of the Vengeance... At one point Scotty is faced with killing one of them in order to let Kirk and Khan into the ship, and Scotty is able to determine he guy isn't a member of Starfleet but is apparently just private security. Which I guess is supposed to make it better?

The retractable bulkheads is kinda dumb, not just because they have shields (which you are entirely correct about) but also because it's HALF covered with heavy bulkheads instead of fully covered with light ones. Everything I saw looked like even retracted the bulkheads were boxing in the navigational deflector though, which has a wide path to cover in case of course corrections (and not just at warp, at impulse too).

Yeah, even discounting the bulkheads, the deflector is still fairly boxed in by the engineering hull. To be fair though, the Excelsior's deflector dish was somewhat recessed into the engineering hull as well, although it didn't look quite as boxed in.

I saw the link to all 20-something QMx models they did, that's how I knew it was a pre-warp ship, it was listed before the Phoenix. The concept is a tad flawed IMO, borrowing from "all the ships named Enterprise" thing from TMP, only this time around it's "over half named Enterprise".

Over half? There's only 3 Enterprise's in the display. The space shuttle, the XCV-330 and the NX-01. For a 'history of aviation' type thing, I don't think it's flawed at all. Sorta reminds me of the opening credits to Enterprise. Although it shows a lot of ego on Admiral Marcus' part to include the Vengeance in that line-up.

Sparky Prime wrote:A needle-shape hull would have been interesting. I remember seeing some concept art for the Enterprise E if it could separate its saucer section, giving the engineering section a very needle-like design like that.

Yeah, I was thinking like that but on a longer neck because it's earlier era Trek (in theory) and a little narrower. I was thinking like the Prometheus but narrower, but that Ent-E sep is a better example, less bulk.

Like you say, these movies are about what looks cool regardless of if it makes any sense (you're on the nose with the flippy-phasers). And I get the feeling they wanted the Vengeance to look somewhat similar to the Enterprise, but with more muscle on it. At least the design with holes in the saucer looks better than the "C" shaped saucer shown in some concept art for the film.

Ugh, that is a really pointless design.

The movie takes it a step further with copping-out the crew of the Vengeance... At one point Scotty is faced with killing one of them in order to let Kirk and Khan into the ship, and Scotty is able to determine he guy isn't a member of Starfleet but is apparently just private security. Which I guess is supposed to make it better?

I guess. And how timely, too.

Yeah, even discounting the bulkheads, the deflector is still fairly boxed in by the engineering hull. To be fair though, the Excelsior's deflector dish was somewhat recessed into the engineering hull as well, although it didn't look quite as boxed in.

Also the Excelsior didn't actually go anywhere in its first outing. You are right that the Excelsior's deflector is set too deep into the hull, but it's not as bad as this.

Over half? There's only 3 Enterprise's in the display. The space shuttle, the XCV-330 and the NX-01. For a 'history of aviation' type thing, I don't think it's flawed at all. Sorta reminds me of the opening credits to Enterprise. Although it shows a lot of ego on Admiral Marcus' part to include the Vengeance in that line-up.

I guess it just seemed like they were mostly Enterprises.

Technically, only 5 of those are aviation: the Wright Flyer, Spirit of St. Louis, V2 Rocket, X15, and the Space Shuttle. The rest are not designed for atmospheric flight.

JediTricks wrote:Technically, only 5 of those are aviation: the Wright Flyer, Spirit of St. Louis, V2 Rocket, X15, and the Space Shuttle. The rest are not designed for atmospheric flight.

That didn't stop the writers of Enterprise having the NX-01 flying through Earth's atmosphere, or the writers of these new movies having the Enterprise and Vengeance down to the surface of a planet...

And I think the Phoenix would count, having been retrofitted from a nuclear missile and launched from a ground based missile silo.

Sparky Prime wrote:

JediTricks wrote:Technically, only 5 of those are aviation: the Wright Flyer, Spirit of St. Louis, V2 Rocket, X15, and the Space Shuttle. The rest are not designed for atmospheric flight.

That didn't stop the writers of Enterprise having the NX-01 flying through Earth's atmosphere, or the writers of these new movies having the Enterprise and Vengeance down to the surface of a planet...

And I think the Phoenix would count, having been retrofitted from a nuclear missile and launched from a ground based missile silo.

These New Coke Trek movies don't really care about any physics or science or anything, hence "transwarp" beaming and beaming across the galaxy, turbolifts taking only 3 seconds to get from the shuttlebay to the bridge, the swelling antics, blinding lights all over the place that create lens flares even though these are supposed to be important, easily-readable workstations, etc.

I thought about counting the Phoenix, but decided against because the stage 1 rocket and cowlings are shed when she breaks atmo, so the first stage stuff is what is really being aviation-like; while the post-orbit second stage ship borne from that discarded stuff has warp nacelles and exposed sections that wouldn't be feasible for in-atmo aviation.

JediTricks wrote:These New Coke Trek movies don't really care about any physics or science or anything, hence "transwarp" beaming and beaming across the galaxy, turbolifts taking only 3 seconds to get from the shuttlebay to the bridge, the swelling antics, blinding lights all over the place that create lens flares even though these are supposed to be important, easily-readable workstations, etc.

I hated the "transwarp" beaming thing. That just screamed that they came up with it for nothing more than plot convenience, completely ignoring everything Star Trek had ever established about the technology. Transporter range, what's that? Can't beam onto a ship moving faster than the speed of light? Pssh. It's even more glaring when the first film goes out of the way to point out how difficult it is to lock on to a moving object in the first place.

I thought about counting the Phoenix, but decided against because the stage 1 rocket and cowlings are shed when she breaks atmo, so the first stage stuff is what is really being aviation-like; while the post-orbit second stage ship borne from that discarded stuff has warp nacelles and exposed sections that wouldn't be feasible for in-atmo aviation.

True enough, but you have to figure they'd have to get back down to Earth and Picard said he'd seen the ship in the Smithsonian. Not sure how though, as you say it's not designed to be feasible for atmospheric flight.