Last Stand of the Wreckers discussion

[Gomess]

Oh, that's a shame. Still, he was a pretty memorable one-shot villain. Gotta wonder why they chose him, though. No Mega and Giga? =[ May as well have been Deathsaurus... But hey, dRoPpInG mY fOoLiSh ExPeCtAtiOnS is what the story's all about, right?

[Dominic]

Head/Power/Target Master tech is supposed to be rare and or experimental in IDW. Skorponok and Sunstreaker were the only two guys that it was really tried on. And, even, it was very rough.

Merge teams are similar. Monstructor, Devastator and Menasor are just about it. And, none of them would exactly justify the reasearch and development costs.

Overlord was an odd duck. Had he already been established as a character before this, in IDW? He was convincingly powerful, and pretty convincingly psychotic... But there's something about his written voice, I dunno. Can't put my finger on it, it was weird.

I almost heard Overlord as having Bobby Heenan's (pre-cancer) voice. He always sounded jovial, yet not at all nice.

I think the presence of the human (I forget her name) weakened the tone overall,

Agreed. Yes, she was the cliched point of view character. And, there was the (presumably deliberate to the point of parody) cheesecake shot of her. So, yeah, I get the joke. But, she did not contribute a whole lot.

I know. Pretty sure I made the point that I agree entirely with you on that score. But that's only if you interpret LSotW being a nihilist piece of deconstructivism as a *good thing*.

I am not sure that it was nihilistic though. Yes, it subverted cliches. But, nihilism does not inherently follow from that.

I likely disagree with Roche and Roberts about the ethics of what some of the characters did. But, it was presented in a balanced way, and with the assumption that there was a definitive answer to the ethical questions raised about truth/justice.

Pyro clearly has massive issues with developing his own identity, sooo... let him be murdered by a gang of Decepticlones.

Pyro was supposed to be an asshole.

His death was a comeuppance. He happened to look like Prime, and thought that made him heroic and important. He went looking for trouble in order to aggrandize himself, not to actually solve difficult problems.

As a reader, I do no care about seeing characters grow and change for the sake of the character. If it serves the writer, that is fine. But, the character is not, nor should it be, an end unto itself.

One can never explain true love. I just thought he was a cool character and wanted to follow his story.

And, you did get to follow his story, all the way to the (messy) end!


Dom
-man, Springer was kind of a dingus.

[Gomess]

He happened to look like Prime, and thought that made him heroic and important. He went looking for trouble in order to aggrandize himself, not to actually solve difficult problems.

And that's... punishable with murder? That sort of hit-you-over-the-head concept-based storytelling has never appealed to me. But here we have a classic divide, because you prefer concept and I prefer character. So, naturally LSotW is going to appeal to you more.

Still not sure what it adds to "Transformers" as a franchise though. I guess it is kind of fun to inject such 80s-style ontology into a franchise that originated in- and will forever be associated with- the 80s. About time, really.

But what are the wider implications of the LSotW story in IDW's universe? Is it just more fuel on Prowl and Springer's fires? It's just so... self-contained. And that's a shame, because it often reads like a dirty secret that will cause all hell to break loose if it ever goes public. And... it probably won't.

[Dominic]

Comeuppance is satisfying to read. There are social, possibly even biological, imperatives for wanting to see twerps get theres. So, in that sense, (for the purposes of telling a story), yeah, Pyro had it coming.

On a related note, (and you may not have seen these pages, depending on what edition you read), what do you think of the idea that Pyro and Overlord had the same (or similar) brand of martyr complex?

But what are the wider implications of the LSotW story in IDW's universe? Is it just more fuel on Prowl and Springer's fires? It's just so... self-contained. And that's a shame, because it often reads like a dirty secret that will cause all hell to break loose if it ever goes public. And... it probably won't.

I doubt much of it will be followed up on.

There might be throw-away lines about some of the guys killed on Garrus-9 being repaired. (IDW runs with the "degrees of dead" idea from the old Marvel comic.) But, substantive follow-up is very unlikely.

Kup's angle was (stupidly) resolved during "Infestation". So, that is one less vector for the "truth" question to be dealt with.

But, in a way, I do think that it was supposed to be self-contained. The Aquitas files were potentially explosive. And, Prowl dealth with them pretty conclusively. (For the record, physical destruction of the storage media is the best way to be rid of a troublesome file if forensic wiping is not an option.) But, that was the point. Prowl solves problems quietely. He does not do that for personal gain, but for the good of the team as he understands it. He keeps things quiet and contained.

Roche and Roberts (probably) disagree with the ethics behind those sorts of actions. But, they are not obligated to write a character that articulates their views, nor to have that character's success/failure reflect their views.

Dom
-would totally hang out with somebody like Fan Club Pyro.

[Gomess]

On a related note, (and you may not have seen these pages, depending on what edition you read), what do you think of the idea that Pyro and Overlord had the same (or similar) brand of martyr complex?

I got the individual issues, and didn't really notice anything of the sort. I wouldn't describe either of them as martyr complexes. Similar in a way... and I guess Pyro dreamt of "going out in a blaze of glory" while Overlord considered Megatron the only one worthy of killing him, so I see your point, but it doesn't amount to much, does it? Might've been nice if it had.

Did anyone else *not* see Aquitas being a computer coming, by the way? I'm gonna go ahead and give them an overly generous "it was probably intentional parody" pass on that one, like the cheesecake. And then immediately rescind it.

Oh, and what happened to Stalker? I can't recall, off the top of my head. Weird how they used him. I thought it was Calcar at first.

[Dominic]

Was Stalker another name for Snare? I recall he died. Overlord butchered a few Decepticons early on.

so I see your point, but it doesn't amount to much, does it? Might've been nice if it had.

The indivual issues and the origional compilation had different character profiles. I forget which profiles appeared where, but you (in theory) had to get both. There is a master edition coming out soon that (I think) will have all of them.

(Yes, that is a dirty trick by IDW.)

In any case, it is used in the story. A big part of "Last Stand of the Wreckers" is what differentiates the factions. Having two guys on opposite sides with similar brands of crazy is consistent with that.


Dom
-figured Aquitas was a something or another of some kind, rather than a character.

[Gomess]

It would be consistent if there were factions sure, but in practical terms Overlord is the only villain with any semblance of personality. Snare is a plot device. As it is, I got the "difference between heroes and villains" stuff, but didn't think it was borne out in the individual characters so overtly.

Aaaand no, Stalker was the guy with the missile on his shoulder (who turns into a tank, not that I blame you for not knowing, 'cos TF stories with transforming aren't kewl) who was doing the Hideous Pointy Dental Experiments on the prisoners.

[Dominic]

it is more a question of I never saw the character before. I have seen Overlord a few times at a friend's house. Ditto for Skyquake (the complete UK toy, not the half-assed Starscream we got in the mid-90s) and most of the other toys that you probably thought of as common in the 90s. Even though a few of the moulds came out in the US, the characters never showed up here.

But, yeah, Stalker died.

[Gomess]

Stalker is one of those many moments while reading IDW's stories I've thought, "Why even use this character?" Stalker has a pretty specific function, and it's not like there aren't G1.5 Decepticons overtly described as "mad scientists", so what does it gain IDW to avoid using an appropriate character for a role they've apparently already decided their story needs? Newness for the sake of newness? People who don't know Stalker will just (wrongly) assume he's always been a mad scientist, and those familiar with him will be confused that he's so different to his tech spec. Those in the middle won't care, of course, but whatevs.

[Dominic]

I did not see Stalker as being a mad scientist so much as a thug with more tools than normal. Yeah, he was working in a lab, but he was not being methodical or scientific. He was just pulling and cutting. (Not sure if being a thug is consistent with Stalker's character either. But, either way, I am not sure that he was being written as a scientific torturer.)