TF Views

Onslaught Six wrote:...the story fell apart. Not "Bishop's plan." I mean the story sucked shit through a straw. Years of buildup for what? The ending to

Spoiler

Looper?

Now you've lost me. What story are you talking about here exactly?

Those merits are largely "not having to deal with bullshit that other mediums would find laughable."

It's a lot more common of a story element than you give credit.

All I'm saying is, Batman: The Animated Series went through four seasons without bringing anybody back from the dead and without sending anybody to any alternate dimensions or back in time.

Clayface comes to mind. His body had been slowly dissolving and he needed to steal chemicals to keep himself alive and in one piece, until eventually while fighting Batman he fell into the ocean and completely dissolved. And then he somehow pulled himself back together in the sewers. And there was an episode where some kids were telling their versions of Batman, based on some Elseworlds stories from the comics. Not exactly alternate dimensions, but it's the same general idea for the episode.

Christopher Nolan did three long-ass movies and did the same thing. Why do the comics find this so difficult?

Batman Begins kills off Ras al Ghul during Bruce's training with him, only for them to pull a switcharoo and reveal he was actually Liam Neeson's character the whole time. Not quite as dramatic as killing off someone and literally bringing them back to life, but it still follows the same sort of thread.

Shit, it's not even like comic books in general are endimic to this.

So what if some comics don't use it? Not all science fiction or fantasy stories do either. But some do. That doesn't make them all terrible stories just for using that plot element.

Shit, this even happened in Watchmen--Rorschach doesn't come back to life. Nobody timetravels in at the last second to stop him from dying. (You want to see how this kind of shit looks to non-comic book fans? Look up WatchmeX some time.)

Yet Dr. Manhattan is aware of the past, present and future events all at once. Meaning the opportunity is there, but the character doesn't do anything to prevent it.

So we're at an impass. Shitty timetravel and alternate universes and broken continuity and rewriting things and retconning crap and writing stories that erase other stories because of things like sales numbers...those break the immersion for me.

That's the thing though, you're just lumping every story that involves time travel, alternate universes or whatever else together with zero regard for the story itself. Yes there are some pretty bad stories out there that involves those types of plots but there are some good ones as well. This is my point you're overlooking here. You can't just say comics are stupid for using a certain type of plot. It matters how the story uses it, because not all of them are stupid. Quite the opposite actually with some of those same stories being classics in some franchises.

The main point here isn't that *all* the stories with those elements are bad, but rather that the comic companies' use of those elements most often seems to be for the sole purpose of cleaning house, rebranding, or resetting a status quo. In other words, those elements suck for how they're being used. Now, if the point of a story itself is based on one of those elements, that's fine and usually results in good stories whereas the more typical "house cleaning" use by both Marvel and DC comes off as either repetetive, boring, and/or a blatant marketing scheme.

TNG: Hive #2

A few things fall into place that weren't entirely clear last issue, though not quite everything. This appears to be one of Brannon Braga's "mind-screw" type plots where it's obvious that something's gone wrong, but it's not quite clear what until the end. The first meeting between Picard and Seven of Nine, both ex-Borg, isn't really played for all the drama that it should be, but it's still nice that a connection between the characters is recognized. It's good to see some Voyager regulars in the background at several points as well, though since this is TNG they're nothing more than cameos. And I'm not quite sure why the red-headed Lt. Archer is named Kira... surely it's not a DS9 reference. The Hazard Team from the ST Elite Force games makes an appearance led by Worf, and another cliffhanger leaves us wondering just what was done to 7 of 9, though I suspect I know the answer.

I'd like to have seen Picard and Seven meet onscreen. I suspect a good story could have come from such a meeting, but this will have to do. I'm enjoying it so far.

Later when he came back in the "Metallica and Justice for All" costume along with the red and blue lightning things it just seemed ridiculous.

Some of that was DC offering commentary on bad hype comics. And, they certainly provided a good example of the trend.

To be fair, "Funeral for a Friend" was well-written. But, so much of what came immediately before and after was bad that it is hard to recommend that story.

Shockwave
-Wonders how many people really expect any changes to stick in comic books.

The publishers need to stop promsing that "nothing will ever be the same again" every year or so. That is why I am done with Marvel.

The fact is, ongoing fiction was never meant to last for the length of time that these franchises have, and they suffer for it. Extremely so. We have to have arguments over what comics "count" anymore, and that's a ridiculous argument to have.

I have said before, and I will say again: I *really* want to see a capes and tights book where the changes stick, the plot is not consistently predictable, characters can change/die and time passes. I want to see "original generation" heroes as likely to die of old age as they are to die in battle. I would even be willing to sacrifice a measure of "big idea" if we could get honest "what will happen (and stick) next" moments.

Give me "Doonsebury" or "For Better or Worse", but with capes dammit. If nothing else, it would be an interesting experiment.

(You want to see how this kind of shit looks to non-comic book fans? Look up WatchmeX some time.)

Or just think about the stereotypes associated with comics (and the fandom) and honestly ask yourself how and why they took root.

And, ask how just how stupid some comics actually are.

what.

I'm not even kidding when I was expecting something seriously less ridiculous than that. Not only was the chick who shot him under hypnosis but it's also a magic time phasing gun. And then "The Skull" (because apparently "Red Skull" wasn't a stupid enough name) somehow timetravels him to the present and voodoo possesses him or something.

Comic books are fucking stupid.

Sometimes, I wonder if Sparky is working us. This is not the first time that he has given a perfect example of what we are talking about and presented it as a refutation of that same point we are making.

So basically, I think that stories involving time travel/dimension hopping and the like *can* be good, they just have to actually be planned around it and using it as an element of the story, rather than just falling back on them because they’re bullshit easy methods of bringing characters back and resetting the status quo.

Agreed.

Now you've lost me. What story are you talking about here exactly?

Do you at least get the point of what O6 was saying?



Legends of the Dark Knight #2:
This issue is thematically linked to "Death of the Family", but has no substantive ties to that arc. The Joker and an unwilling Mad Hatter brain-wash members of Gotham's elite in to impersonating Batman and confronting Killer Croc. The results are predictably gory. New 52 Joker seems to be distilled down to a mixture of homicidal capriciousness and bat-fetish. I am not sure how long that will hold the interests of writers and audiences, but it is as good a starting point as any. New 52 Bullock, on the other hand, is definitely a step down. Post CoIE, (particularly after the early 90s "Animated" series), Bullock was generally portrayed as a good (if rough) cop who distrusted Batman on principle. The idea was that not all of the good guys were like Jim Gordon, and not all of the people who distrusted Batman were criminals. Here, Bullock is just another slightly rough around the edges cop. I think that something may have been lost.
Grade: B/C


Earth 2 #6:
The first arc resolves itself. (I was wondering if DC was going to run it for another two issues, as 8 part arcs are becoming more common.) Alan Scott uses the will power associated with the green power rings and manages to dispense with Grundy. If "Earth 2" picks up the red/green/rot angle from the main DC books, I suspect that Sloane will play a role, if not as the red avatar as a spoiler for one or more of the players. Some of the damage that Grundy did was mitigated. But, enough of it stuck that it is apparent that the big gimmick of "Earth 2" is likely to be "big events stick". Robinson subverts the "team comes together" cliche in this issue by having GL strike out on his own and keeping the Atom adversarial towards Hawkgirl and Flash.
Grade: B


Dom
-notes that the pull file is swelling again....

Dominic wrote:Do you at least get the point of what O6 was saying?

I haven't been disputing O6's point, I've been disputing his attitude that all comics are stupid for *some* stories poor use of certain plot points.

Okay for fuck's sake, have you really been taking that line literally? This whole time? 'Really?'

Any time I say that, I am speaking as an outsider. I am speaking as a non-comics reader. If I went into my office tomorrow, (I'm actually unemployed right now, but let's pretend I have an office) and I say to my middle-aged female coworker, "Hey, Captain America is coming back from the dead in the comic books," and they (for some Godawful reason) as "Oh yeah? How did he die?" and I say, "Well, he didn't really die, a hypnotized chick just shot him with a timephasing gun that phased him through time for a few months."

She's going to stare at me blankly and go, "That sounds fucking stupid."

Stuff like that makes people not want to read comic books because they shake the suspension of disbelief into insane levels, and more importantly, there isn't a reason for those elements to exist! Captain America is a super soldier. His whole deal is he's created by science and he's the peak of human efficiency. So why are things like hypnotism and "time phasing" part of his goddamned backstory now? If you sum up Captain America's life in 616 right now, you have to say that part. It happened. It was a major Goddamn event. And it sounds ridiculous.

I'm saying I don't understand why comics have to do this. If you're going to kill Steve Rogers, then shut up and kill Steve Rogers already.

Now, see, I'd be fine with characters coming back from the dead...occasionally. Once in a while. Maybe every couple years. If they were major things. But this shit happens literally all the time! For fuck's sake, Batman's butler Alfred has died and come back to life! In the 60s! And he's a minor character in the DC universe!

I mean, it's just...it's bad writing. If nobody would kill the fucking characters in the first place, they wouldn't need revived. Death should be used sparingly and well. Again--look at Star Wars. Characters don't die often, and when they do, they stay dead. (Again, Obi-Wan was a ghost, which is completely different from coming back to life.) Nobody comes back to life in Total Recall!

I mean, it's like, okay, I get it. Some superheroes are all about alternate realities and timetravel. That's fine! But Booster Gold doesn't use his timetravel to go back in time and save Ted Kord, does he? Hell, Booster Gold could theoretically prevent every comic book death since 1990 if he wanted to (and if DC would decide on dates for these things--hard to travel to specific events if they're always exactly "five years ago.") but he doesn't because that would be stupid and suck, and more importantly it would be a complete and total shift in tone and feel.

In the Avengers film, Loki drops Thor out of the Helicarrier in that little prison thing, right? And he hits the ground and he's a little banged up, but he's pretty okay. Now, if the same thing happened to Captain America, or Hawkeye, or Tony Stark out of his suit, I'd call bullshit. There's no way they'd be able to survive that. But Thor can because his whole character is being immortal and hard to hurt. That's believable. That's the thing.

It's 'not' believable to me that when we saw Captain America get shot, the girl was actually under hypnosis and he got shot with a time bullet. Or that he was actually a clone. Or an imposter. Or The Flash appeared at the last second and timetravelled him out of the way. (It's okay! He ran so fast that he went to the other comics company and signed a deal.) That's stupid and cheap and it sucks. And comic books are stupid because they overuse plotlines like that to the point where it's easier to name a mainstream hero who *hasn't* died and come back to life than one who has. (I used to say Batman, but that hasn't been true for about four years now. I don't even know who to say anymore.)

She's going to stare at me blankly and go, "That sounds fucking stupid."

And, she would be right. (I am saying that as somebody who reads comics.)

So why are things like hypnotism and "time phasing" part of his goddamned backstory now? If you sum up Captain America's life in 616 right now, you have to say that part. It happened. It was a major Goddamn event. And it sounds ridiculous.

Actually, the "big stuff" that really just sets things back the way they were, (such as the Avengers finding the Wasp in the Microverse), generally ends up getting ignored. "Heroes Return" was sold as a big damned deal in the 90s. But, in real terms, a few months later that story may as well have not happened which was kind of the point of "Heroes Return" in the first place. Has anybody referenced "the Crossing Line" in ~15 years? This also applies to more recent stories. "Avengers DisAssembled" was ~8 years ago. How much of that stuck?

But, we need that story because most comic editors and fans just cannot get over certain characters.

mean, it's like, okay, I get it. Some superheroes are all about alternate realities and timetravel. That's fine! But Booster Gold doesn't use his timetravel to go back in time and save Ted Kord, does he?

They addressed that in the "Booster Gold" series, and the take-away was "bad things happen when you try to alter history".

The real problem is that time travel and alternate dimensions are used to justigy fix-fic that make things "just they way they were" or close enough to how they were...because, as stated above, comic editors and fans cannot get over their precious back-issues.

(I used to say Batman, but that hasn't been true for about four years now. I don't even know who to say anymore.)

Batman is iffy. On the one hand, he did not die. He was clearly shown to be alive in "Final Crisis". DC made no bones about it. They did not say how he had survived. But, Bruce Wayne was clearly alive.

On the other hand, that whole story was deliberately structured to read/sound like the kind thing that we are talking about here. "Batman was zapped into the time stream by a bad guy and.....and them some other stuff.....and then this happens.....and then......." It sounds as much like back-written bullshittery as the actual back-written bullshittery.

In strict terms, Batman did not die. However, Batman was written in to a story deliberately structured to evoke most every "death and return of" story that we are talking about.


Dom
-but, no you see, Batman did not die, so we cannot use that as an example because.....

Onslaught Six wrote:Okay for fuck's sake, have you really been taking that line literally? This whole time? 'Really?'

Yes. Look at any of the arguments I've made. I concede that there are some stupid stories out there, but the point I've been making is that *not all* of those stories that involves those types of plot elements are stupid. I'd agree Captain America getting shot and then somehow 'Quantum Leaping' through his own history was a stupid story, but then a story like "Days of the Futures Past" is an excellent X-Men story that also happens to involve time travel. Even looking at it from the view of an outsider to comics, not every story involving those plot elements is going to be a bad story.

But Booster Gold doesn't use his timetravel to go back in time and save Ted Kord, does he? Hell, Booster Gold could theoretically prevent every comic book death since 1990 if he wanted to (and if DC would decide on dates for these things--hard to travel to specific events if they're always exactly "five years ago.") but he doesn't because that would be stupid and suck, and more importantly it would be a complete and total shift in tone and feel.

There was an issue that dealt with that exact problem as I recall. Rip Hunter sent Booster on a mission to prevent Batgirl from being shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but no matter what Booster did, there were just some events like that he could not undo or make this worst as a result.

Dominic wrote:The publishers need to stop promsing that "nothing will ever be the same again" every year or so. That is why I am done with Marvel.

It's also the same reason you were 'done' with DC a few years go, as I recall, and switched to Marvel (stuff like Dark Avengers/Siege really impressing you on that front). And now look where you are, I imagine it'll all flip around again for you in a year or two.

I have said before, and I will say again: I *really* want to see a capes and tights book where the changes stick, the plot is not consistently predictable, characters can change/die and time passes. I want to see "original generation" heroes as likely to die of old age as they are to die in battle. I would even be willing to sacrifice a measure of "big idea" if we could get honest "what will happen (and stick) next" moments.

Give me "Doonsebury" or "For Better or Worse", but with capes dammit. If nothing else, it would be an interesting experiment.

I would argue that Marvel's TF series actually pulled this off back in the 80's, even managing to have an 'ending' before wearing out its welcome. Of course, now that storyline has picked up again with ReG1, but even that's carrying on from the previous status quo, and is slated to really end for reals this time we mean it after twelve issues.

That said, I'm curious as to why such a thing would be important to you, Dom. I mean, so long as the individual stories contained within the franchise books are interesting and communicate their ideas effectively, who care which artificially 'developed' versions of ficticious characters they're using to do it? Why do you care so much whether not-real people in a not-real universe have long-term changes applied to them or not? Books like Dark Knight Returns and, to a degree, Watchmen already successfully illustrated how cape characters would be impacted by a non-sliding timeline, what would be the point of doing it again, over and over?

Sparky Prime wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:Okay for fuck's sake, have you really been taking that line literally? This whole time? 'Really?'

Yes. Look at any of the arguments I've made. I concede that there are some stupid stories out there, but the point I've been making is that *not all* of those stories that involves those types of plot elements are stupid. I'd agree Captain America getting shot and then somehow 'Quantum Leaping' through his own history was a stupid story, but then a story like "Days of the Futures Past" is an excellent X-Men story that also happens to involve time travel. Even looking at it from the view of an outsider to comics, not every story involving those plot elements is going to be a bad story.

...Right, and what Six was trying to say was that his statement was hyperbolic in the extreme, and that he obviously didn't actually mean that all comic books or even all stories with time travel are stupid (he's expressed love for many examples of both repeatedly in all the time we've known him), and that taking that statement at face-value and using its obvious hyperbolic incorrectness as the crux of the argument in which you went about proving him 'wrong' was a very, very silly thing to do.

There was an issue that dealt with that exact problem as I recall. Rip Hunter sent Booster on a mission to prevent Batgirl from being shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but no matter what Booster did, there were just some events like that he could not undo or make this worst as a result.

And then DC went and undid it anyway, jus' becuz! I'm laughing so hard right now.

I heard a rumor that DiDio just really has it out for Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown, for some reason. Any truth to that?

I have also heard the rumour. But, even the people who were talking about it at the comic shop were framing it as "rumour".

And then DC went and undid it anyway, jus' becuz! I'm laughing so hard right now.

Yeah. They undid it without time-travel. And, it apparently makes more sense that she was crippled less than 5 years ago, had time build up a rep as Oracle and then (somehow or another) got her legs back.

It's also the same reason you were 'done' with DC a few years go, as I recall, and switched to Marvel (stuff like Dark Avengers/Siege really impressing you on that front). And now look where you are, I imagine it'll all flip around again for you in a year or two.

Fair point. But, it should also be noted that it took something the magnitude of "Flashpoint" to get me back in to DC after "Countdown" and Barry Allen coming back from the dead. And, even so, it took some doing for me to be interested in the new 52. DC had to prove they were serious about it.

Marvel has never, and is unlikely to ever, run a story the scale or significance of "Flashpoint". It just will not happen. "Dark Reign" was not something that I had seen before written by a guy whose main gimmick is readability. Marvel is generally more likely to follow a predictable cycle of "back the way things were" than DC.

I would argue that Marvel's TF series actually pulled this off back in the 80's, even managing to have an 'ending' before wearing out its welcome. Of course, now that storyline has picked up again with ReG1, but even that's carrying on from the previous status quo, and is slated to really end for reals this time we mean it after twelve issues.

It is going to be 20 issues actually. But, yes, the Marvel TF series delivered on this front. Even at its worst, (the middle issues between 20 and 50 or so), the Marvel series was dynamic. Even if you did not like the book, there was reason to think it would get better because it was going someplace and going somewhere.

And, "ReGeneration 1" is largely following that trend, even if the pacing is a bit different.

Why do you care so much whether not-real people in a not-real universe have long-term changes applied to them or not? Books like Dark Knight Returns and, to a degree, Watchmen already successfully illustrated how cape characters would be impacted by a non-sliding timeline, what would be the point of doing it again, over and over?

I just think that it would be an interesting experiment to do this in something resembling real time. DC did this in the 1970s and 1980s, using the (aged) JSA characters to set up for "Infinity Incorporated". Had they followed that trend, the Huntress and other hiers would be dead/retired by now. "The Dark Knight" just assumed a narrative jump. But, imagine seeing Batman age a little every year. Imagine something like what DC did with the JSA or even Marvel with the Invaders/Avengers without back-writing things. Imagine a book like "Fantastic Four". Franklin Richards would be in his 50s. He would the patriarch of the Richard's family, likely with grandkids of his own. Imagine the possiblities for the comics we could get.

I would let up on "give me an impressive idea" if the events would flow and stick more meaningfully.

At a more basic level, I get sick of reading the same comics over and over. I also get sick of picking up a book after having not read it for years, and having seen changes from when I was reading it (or stuff I heard about after) having been so cleanly undone that it may as well have never happened.

Between '97 and '05, I avoided capes and tights almost entirely for this reason. ("Infinite Crisis" got me back in believe it or not.) I discovered GW ("Inferno" and "WarHammer Monthly") in '99. Then in '01/'02, Devils Due and Dreamwave hooked me along with Dark Horse's "Star Wars".



Dom
-"For Super or for Worse", think about it.