TF Views

Greg Weisman, which makes it that much worse.

Never read his stuff before.

Order 66 isn't a contingency, it's a crucial part of Palpatine's Sith plot to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy.

But, it would have been presented/marketed as "a contingency for a terrible thing that we hope never happens", rather than "okay trooper-trainees, we have a dastardly plan that involves killing the Jedi".

Order 66 didn't need a set of circumstances framing the Jedi for evil deeds to shift the minds of the troopers (the prequel-era EU does have this tiny motivational seed buried in their news feeds suggesting that the Jedi Order stole babies against the will of their people, but that didn't come close to getting touched upon in the canon films), it didn't need to mock up a betrayal by the Jedi; all that had to happen was Palpatine to utter the words "execute order 66" and the minds of the clones, who for some had been close and friendly with their Jedi generals, immediately and without hesitation became trained to kill all Jedi without a hint of conscience.

I recall seeing somewhere that Order 66 was a "kill the Jedi because the Jedi are a threat" scenario. It was built in to the training of the troops. If they got the order, they would follow it as they would any other. (It might have been an article in "Insider"?)

None of the clones in the movie are shown to be in any sort of trance during Order 66. They acknowledge the order and execute it.

I know, and it's been fairly easy to dismiss them up until now because the vast majority of those on the Death Star were evil stormtroopers. Now though it appears that they may have been tricked by biology into being there and actually have consciences that weren't heard.

Even putting aside the sheer number of support staff that a facility the size of the Death Star would have, the idea that there were sympathetic storm troopers (on the Death Star and elsewhere) is not new. It has shown up in various novels and comics over the years. The Empire does not present on page "we are the bad guys, join the bad guys". The Empire markets itself as the best choice for maintaining order and preserving civilization against the threat of rebellion and Jedi. Marvel is simply introducing that idea in a new comic.

It is a safe bet that the upcoming movie will build on this idea. Not all of the new Empire's troops will be bad.

Spoiler

At least one of main characters is a turn-coat trooper.

Dominic wrote:

Order 66 isn't a contingency, it's a crucial part of Palpatine's Sith plot to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy.

But, it would have been presented/marketed as "a contingency for a terrible thing that we hope never happens", rather than "okay trooper-trainees, we have a dastardly plan that involves killing the Jedi".

I don't believe it would have been "marketed" to the Clone Troopers. They would have been conditioned to follow that order with out question, along with the rest of the training they were 'programmed' with to be the perfect soldiers. Maybe the Kamino might have been told it was a contingency plan given they were the ones producing the army, but it wouldn't have made any difference to the Troopers because they wouldn't have been given the choice.

Batman '66 #27
Main continuity Batman had his spine broken by Bane. So did Christian Bale's version of Batman. The Adam West Batman proves that he's the best, most prepared Batman of all time by surviving the Bane back-breaker, all because he keeps a Batarang tucked in the back of his belt which protected his spine. Awesome. That joke alone justifies the addition of Bane to the Batman '66 continuity.

In this version, Bane is a Luchador wrestler from "south of the border", and he even has his own version of Venom (never called that) which he sips before a wrestling match to give him an extra advantage in strength and endurance, even though he's already a huge guy. He's working with the Riddler, who flees the United States with Bane after Batman is apparently crippled. Of course, Batman is fine, and he, Robin and Batgirl head to South America where they take on Bane for a second time, with Batman having worked out how to be sure of a fair fight so he can win this time. This is another "main continuity villain adapted to the Batman 66 universe" story, but it's the best one by far. I definitely enjoyed this issue.

Doctor Who Ninth Doctor #2
Last issue ended with Rose falling into the time vortex, which would ordinarily mean a quick and brutal death from the hostile environment. She survives thanks to a specialized bracelet given to her by Captain Jack. The Doctor is able to track her down using the TARDIS sensors. She's landed on a planet orbiting a star that's been frozen in time right as it's about to go supernova. There's a hidden bazaar on the planet trafficking in illegal time weapons from the Time War, including some from Gallifrey. This sets the Doctor right off, and we're firmly in season one 9th Doctor storytelling here as he makes a big speech, gets everyone's attention, denounces what they're doing and announces that he is the Doctor, and he's a Time Lord, and if they want a really good weapon they need to look at him. This is all to draw the attention of whoever is buying the Time Lord weapons, and the plan works. It turns out that the aliens from last issue in the suits of armor are the ones buying them. Last issue established how much of a threat one of those aliens could be, and now the Doctor, Rose and Jack are surrounded by a dozen.

So far this series has really captured the tone of Christopher Eccleston's Doctor very well. The characterization really does feel accurate, and a focus on the Time War fits the themes of that first season very well.

Dominic wrote:

Greg Weisman, which makes it that much worse.

Never read his stuff before.

He's known more for his animation work, he created Disney's Gargoyles, he was a producer on SW Rebels season 1 and The Spectacular Spider-man; on comics he wrote on Captain Atom, Young Justice, and Gargoyles.

But, it would have been presented/marketed as "a contingency for a terrible thing that we hope never happens", rather than "okay trooper-trainees, we have a dastardly plan that involves killing the Jedi".

That's only your presumption, and there's no one to present it to, except the Kaminoans perhaps, who seemed to be good with the evil.

I recall seeing somewhere that Order 66 was a "kill the Jedi because the Jedi are a threat" scenario. It was built in to the training of the troops. If they got the order, they would follow it as they would any other. (It might have been an article in "Insider"?)

None of the clones in the movie are shown to be in any sort of trance during Order 66. They acknowledge the order and execute it.

The comic explicitly says they felt like they were in a trance or something akin to that, they had no control over that opinion and decision-making in that specific moment. It could not be an active part of their TRAINING either, as that would have alerted the Jedi who could read minds and feel tremors of the future through the Force, they had to have it as an unconscious operation.

As for following the order, if you got an order that the field commanders you fought the entire war with were evil and needed to be killed, you'd definitely have some qualms and not merely execute it based on a simple hologram transmission - what if the image of your leader had been faked? That order would require a lot of consideration on the part of an underling.

Even putting aside the sheer number of support staff that a facility the size of the Death Star would have, the idea that there were sympathetic storm troopers (on the Death Star and elsewhere) is not new. It has shown up in various novels and comics over the years. The Empire does not present on page "we are the bad guys, join the bad guys". The Empire markets itself as the best choice for maintaining order and preserving civilization against the threat of rebellion and Jedi. Marvel is simply introducing that idea in a new comic.

The beginning of A New Hope makes it clear that the normies recognize that the Empire is evil and bad, yet Luke doesn't understand the connection between the Academy and the Empire, nor does Biggs (that last part is in the script and was filmed but cut for being boring) until he's faced with the realization that he's being indoctrinated into the Imperial Navy through school, so he and his classmates join the rebellion.

JediTricks wrote:As for following the order, if you got an order that the field commanders you fought the entire war with were evil and needed to be killed, you'd definitely have some qualms and not merely execute it based on a simple hologram transmission - what if the image of your leader had been faked? That order would require a lot of consideration on the part of an underling.

I seem to remember the Kamino cloners in episode 2 telling Obi-Wan how obedient the Clone Troops were when they're selling him on the "product" that they think he's ordered. The simplest explanation is that they're programmed to obey their superior, and since the Chancellor/Emperor outranks the Jedi Generals, they follow those orders. There's no hostility from the clones for the Jedi to detect, because they have none. They simply obey the inbuilt order to kill the Jedi like they do any other order.

The question is, do the clones feel remorse afterwards? How much free will do they have? There's a lot about the nature of the clones and how they think that the movies never really get into. I tend to view them as pretty narrow in terms of feelings and thoughts. They follow orders, and have enough reason and mental faculties to enable them to be efficient soldiers, and not much more.

Now, the Clone Wars series may present the clones differently. I don't know, because I've only seen a handful of episodes. I don't know how much validity I'd give to any expanded universe production though.

Getting caught up...

Star Trek/Green Lantern #3
Turns out Ganthet activated a "Last Light" failsafe to transport himself and the leaders of the various Corps to the Star Trek universe. It was meant to transport every living Lantern with them, but apparently Ganthet wasn't strong enough. And as Atrocitus, Larfleeze and Sinestro talk to their new recruits, we find out from Carol that Nekron has also been transported to the Star Trek universe...
Finally feels like we're moving past the set up for this mini-series now that we're getting some answers. Nice to see a nod to the original series with the USS Constellation, which the Red Lanterns destroy. I also really liked that Hal tries to get Kirk to call him Captain Jordan, although Kirk refuses to do so. It'd be nice if the regular GL series made some more references like that. Bit disappointed Kyle got shafted as he's the only human GL not shown at the start of the issue (that was around during Blackest Night). Also kinda funny to see Carol was drawn in the costume she wore during Blackest Night on that page, but at the end of the issue she's in her latest costume.

Green Lantern #44
Hal stops off at a planet to treat Virgo for his experience with the GL gauntlet where the doctor believes he's experienced the equivalent of blunt force trauma. But it turns out some Thanagarian marauders have taken up residence on this planet and raid every ship that comes by. With some help from Trapper, the two are able to fight them off just before Hal passes out from the after affect of a sonic attack. With the baddies in jail and the people grateful to Hal, it seems Hal is single highhandedly restoring faith in the missing Green Lantern Corps which people are beginning to realize why they need them.
Bit of a nice self contained issue, basically just showing Hal's little crew starting to work together and the need for a universal police force. I'm seeing the beginnings of a return to status quo here though, once the Green Lanterns do return.

Sinestro #14
Nax of the Naidroth Collective is chosen by a Sinestro Corps ring and is shortly joined by Sinestro himself to teach her about his Corps and new mission of keeping the peace. Nax finds this contradictory and doesn't think she's the right choice. Taking her to Ranx on War World, it's revealed Sinestro is rebuilding an army of Manhunters to act as backup for the Sinestro Corps. Sinestro has them attack Nax, who unleashes the ring, to which Sinestro says proves why she was chosen as she can control fear. He takes her to Natu where Nax shows her unique ability to psychically vivisect a person and put them back together, a process that is extremely painful if the subject is not sedated, which Natu realizes must be why Sinestro recruited her.
Another fairly self contained issue, introducing Sinestro's latest recruitment drive, collection living weapons...

Lobo #10
Lobo has been contracted by Sinestro to hunt down members of the other Corps, and he starts with the Indigo's. Attacking Indigo-1, he reveals he has cut off the hands of the rest of the Indigo Tribe already. Various Indigo rings attempt to control Lobo, but he bites off his own finger to prevent it. Outmatched, Indigo-1 teleports away. Lobo returns to Sinestro and delivers the Indigo Rings, and is given his next assignment... the Red Lanterns. Lobo kills Rankorr taking his ring, while Bleez is able to get away and apparently is working for Atroctius again...
While Sinestro says he could easily take out the other Corps himself, apparently he's busy with other matters, which is where Lobo comes in. Can't say that I like how they killed off Munk (along with the rest of the Indigo Tribe) and Rankorr in this issue. Looks like they're purging the other Corps, save for their leaders, and it's not even in a Lantern title. It also seems a bit too easy for Lobo to be killing off Lanterns. I mean, the entire Indigo Tribe on their home planet, single handedly? Even for Lobo, that's a bit much. I'm also guessing Atrocitus and Dex-Starr, who had been sent to the Scienccells near the end of the Red Lanterns title, were freed due to the disappearance of the Green Lanterns. Why Bleez and Rankorr are apparently working with them again though, I have no idea. Atrocitus apparently has new rings thanks to the "Rage Mother", which he has carrying a small Central Battery.

Sinestro #15
Saint Walker is trying to help the inhabitants of a planet, when Lobo attacks him. The inhabitants defend their savior, when a Yellow ring suddenly interrupts the fight, but Lobo cuts off the finger and takes Saint Walker back to Sinestro. Lobo angrily tells Sinestro he's tired of cutting off his finger with rings trying to recruit him and the next time one tries to, it'll be an unpleasant conversation. Lobo leaves and Sinestro talks to Saint Walker, explaining while he's having other ring wielder's destroyed, he sees potential in Saint Walker. He wants Saint Walker to put his Hope into the Sinestro Corps as the new police force for the universe, granting them his blue ring's abilities to heal and super charge them. And to prove his good intentions, Sinestro provides food and water to the planet Walker was helping. Saint Walker claims it doesn't work that way though, he needs the light of a Green Lantern to unlock those abilities. But Sinestro believes Saint Walker can do it with out a Green Lantern and introduces him to his science division...
Well good to see Sinestro isn't killing off everyone of the other Corps. Like the last issue established, Sinestro is collecting weapons, and Saint Walker's abilities would certainly give his Corps a big advantage if he can boost their powers like he does for a Green Lantern. I love how this issue once again illustrates Sinestro as both villain and hero, willing to help and inflict pain to get what he wants.

Green Lantern Lost Army #3
andersonh1 talked about this issue recently, so I think I'll forgo a summery. And like andersonh1 said, I hate that this series only has 2 more issues left. There's still so much potential here. One thing I wanted to mention about this issue specifically, kinda funny to learn Salaak has learned English, so that he can talk to John with out their rings to translate. Also interesting to know Kilowog apparently learned English as well, seeing how he can talk to Guy. Kinda wish he didn't actually... One of the episodes of the cartoon involved the rings running out of power, and it was pretty funny seeing the characters work together with out being able to understand each other.

andersonh1 wrote:

JediTricks wrote:As for following the order, if you got an order that the field commanders you fought the entire war with were evil and needed to be killed, you'd definitely have some qualms and not merely execute it based on a simple hologram transmission - what if the image of your leader had been faked? That order would require a lot of consideration on the part of an underling.

I seem to remember the Kamino cloners in episode 2 telling Obi-Wan how obedient the Clone Troops were when they're selling him on the "product" that they think he's ordered. The simplest explanation is that they're programmed to obey their superior, and since the Chancellor/Emperor outranks the Jedi Generals, they follow those orders. There's no hostility from the clones for the Jedi to detect, because they have none. They simply obey the inbuilt order to kill the Jedi like they do any other order.

The question is, do the clones feel remorse afterwards? How much free will do they have? There's a lot about the nature of the clones and how they think that the movies never really get into. I tend to view them as pretty narrow in terms of feelings and thoughts. They follow orders, and have enough reason and mental faculties to enable them to be efficient soldiers, and not much more.

Now, the Clone Wars series may present the clones differently. I don't know, because I've only seen a handful of episodes. I don't know how much validity I'd give to any expanded universe production though.

This goes beyond following the order though, this is a hardwired programming, not training.

And as of Kanan #5, they do indeed feel some level of remorse about it, and enough free will to destroy everybody on that ship. It's very complicated, and I feel like George Lucas didn't think enough about this stuff, it was fine when it was just the background fodder we never saw because then it could go anywhere, but once he committed it to a script it became a different animal.

The Clone Wars animated series isn't EU, it's canon. Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

It's all explained in a story arc in Clone Wars. It's technological. There's a chip implanted into every clone trooper that has order 66 on it. The story focused on one trooper who's chip was either destroyed or malfunctioned and he was sent back to Kamino for "medical treatment". One of the other troopers in his unit followed him and found out about the chips. I don't think they ever explicitly refer to order 66 by name, but the implications about what the chip is designed to do heavily implies that it's primary if not sole function is to ensure that every trooper carries out 66 without question. That was why the one trooper was sent back to Kamino when he was injured, because the chip was damaged and therefore, neither Palpatine nor the Kaminoans could be sure that he would carry out the order.

It sounds to me like the current comics might be contradicting that or at least implying that it didn't go 100% as planned. Or maybe it's a retcon because God knows we've never seen that before in comics.

I remember, but that didn't really explain the aftermath. Does it function for merely a moment, or is it a full-stop personality shift, or what? And as for retconning, keep in mind that all the comics are now in-canon, there can only be so much retconning allowed.

So, I pounded through a bunch of comics yesterday:

- Batman '66 #25 - Harlequin is revealed, it's cute and even has continuity throwbacks (despite the car being destroyed in the previous issue) but deserved a longer story. The B-story was cute too, a light Mad Men parody with Batgirl in disguise working on a PR shift for the rogues gallery. Both of these could have been fun at full-length, I don't get why DC isn't paying for fuller arcs with the digital versions of these.

- Afterlife with Archie #8 - wow, this landed so much better than I expected right up until the last page. But everything else was spot on, there were Lil' Archie continuity elements, there was a shout out to The Shining, fantastic stuff. The conversations and interactions in this respite from the zombies actually made the zombie threat menacing in a way that doesn't get fleshed out enough. Hell, even the sacrificing the generations of children to the witches was interesting when it could have easily missed. Then, spoiler alert, Archie asked Betty to marry him, and that felt... whatevs. It wasn't entirely out of character or moment, but it just felt small compared to the rest of the tale. I didn't read the B-story material.

- Windblade #6 - an interesting if unbalanced story, once again undone by the tonally-inappropriate art.

- The TF #43 - eh, this was better than I expected but still below what I would have wanted.

- Archie vs. The Predator #4 - this moved along at a good pace, and gave Veronica some sorely-needed agency, but the plot was so nonsensical that it was only worthwhile as a piece of Archie Comics silliness, not good in its own. Basically, it cheated and didn't stick the landing, then went with a nonsense ending. What are you, Doctor Who under Steven Moffat?

- FCBD Divergence - firstly, this is a terrible excuse for a FCBD book, this is nothing, don't play like you're really giving new readers something when it's just a tease. And it's a bad tease at that, the "Batman" material could have been interesting but wasn't. The Superman material was slightly interesting but faded. The Wonder Woman material was an utter misfire. This was an insulting thing.

- FCBD All New All Different Avengers - The A story isn't long enough either, but it's more complete. Unfortunately, the ending doesn't punctuate itself well enough, and the middle is too thin. The B story is vague and unfocused, it almost works but doesn't quite get away with it.

What I got out of it was that the chips essentially cause the troopers to view killing the Jedi as the right and moral thing to do. The reason the injured trooper was taken back to Kamino was specifically because of concern that he wouldn't blindly obey 66 if it was issued because his own morality would get in the way. If the new comic has troopers feeling remorse about it, that could have all sorts of implications. Do they feel remorse about others they have killed during war and if so, then this is probably just a regular part of post war guilt. If not, then it could imply that maybe the chips and their effects are breaking down over time. Or maybe there are just some of them doing that while most of them are still operating normally. I haven't read the current comics so you guys will have a better gauge on those implications than I do, but I just thought I'd add what I remembered from the CW show regarding the matter.