Transformers - ongoing series

[Mako Crab]

I LOL'd.

My knee-jerk reaction to this whole thing was to say that Costa's a dick, and maybe he is, but whatever. I do understand where he's coming from, and I know that our fandom, such as it is, is full of whiny bastards that can't handle any inkling of change. Bob 'n' Larry got blasted by the fans when Beast Wars first premiered. Skir got death threats for BM. Just. . . it's a fucking immature fandom. But the thing is, I'm sure it's the same no matter where you go. I was checking out the DC forums after the big 52 relaunch, and OMG some of the people there were nothing short of fucking douchebags.

*gah! Outta' time. Have to get back to this later. Bye!*

[Dominic]

Potterites are, frankly, no better/worse than other fanbases. They have a thing that they like, and they like it by...talking with people on the internet and writing low-rent fanfic and cosplaying and such.

Potter fans do more or less all of the worst things that fandoms do. Fan/slash-fic, cosplay, musical fanfic, fanon, getting overly attached to characters...and on and on.

Of course, they tend to be younger, so they may well grow out of it.

except for maybe the *volume* of said fanfic.

I am monetizing for volume/quantity.

Now Sonic fans, those are a special brand of crazy.

Hey, thanks for opening up that particular wound. No, really. I needed that. I managed to forget about that particular fanbase...until you brought it up. Thanks Prowl, really. If I had your cell number....oh, you would be getting it good this weekend.

but I personally think that one thing you're supposed to do as a *Professional* in this sort of thing is rise above the fans, and not stoop to their level of petty insults and name-calling when they try to get your goat.

Fair point, but damn, it needed to be said by somebody. If Costa pulled it off without the hyberbole of fact, (there are only x-amount of fans on the boards...), it would have been harder to assail even if it did not go over any better.

Maybe we were all thinkin' it,

Oh, I was saying it. Nobody listened to me, but I have been saying for a while now.....

When David Willis says this sort of stuff about the fandom (and to his begrudging credit, he does) it's somehow okay. But you just KNOW in a day or two Willis himself is going to tear into Costa for these sound bytes.

Nah, not so far. Actually, Fuckface was on the AllSpark telling at least one person to tone down their tantrum.

ail-end of G1, or even a different series like RiD or something, it probably would have been okay, but since he messed with people's precious '84-'85 characters,

Nah, they would have complained that "RiD is supposed to be stupid!" or some such. Ironically, some would likely have complained that the story *should* have had G1 characters because they can be used seriously, or that G1 should get the best stories or.....

You get it.

The problem is that Costa wrote over the heads of too many of the fans. (And, the other problem is that he was not writing over the heads of Joe fans. Putting aside my disagreement with his line about Joe being more repsected, it still speaks badly of us as a group when we compare badly to Joe fans in terms of maturity.)

really wonder what the hell it takes to make TF comic readers happy these days...

One of the more interesting things about the quoted paragraph, and post as a whole, is the use of 3rd person pronouns, rather than first person plural. (I am avoiding the temptation to use them myself, but can understand why Prowl is doing it....)

The comic needs to be accessible to a five year old. I love Last Stand of the Wreckers. But, it has that accessibility along with the high concept. It is really bright and colourful. There is a very clear quest. (Look at it. You could almost play it as an RPG.) And, it has plenty of explosions.

While the hard to understand stuff is important to the plot, it can be taken out and leave something sort of coherent. (And, what incoherence there was would be ignored by the fans that Costa was calling out because it was a story about TFs.)

I fear that we're quickly going the way of GI Joe fans and their precious Hama.

Nah, we are past the point that could have happened. And, Furman *never* had the outside credibility of Hama, which helped with his standing in "GI Joe". Costa was right about Hama bringing that much to the table, even if he over-stated it.

It took a few serious continuity flubs by Hama to cost him any real credibility with Joe fans. And, even then, he still has apologists.

Furman had a bad run of work that had no real continuity flubs, and many of us turned on him, (and rightly so).

Bob 'n' Larry got blasted by the fans when Beast Wars first premiered. Skir got death threats for BM.

And, the irony now is that Beast-fans are some of the worse and most regressive Transfans.


Dom
-not a Beast fan any more....

[Gomess]

the worst things that fandoms do ... cosplay

*Really*? Come on, get some perspective.

*Imagines Dom firebombing a Halloween party and driving away, cackling* "STOP EXPRESSING YOUR PASSIONS THROUGH SELFLESS PHYSICAL LABOUR AND REAL-LIFE SOCIALISING, LOSERS!!"

You know it's when you're at your most fandom-hating you sound like the most ign'ant, irrational and insular fanboy yourself, right? just checkin'

...Is there really a discussion about which fandoms are "worse" than others? And making generalisations like "Beast fans are all like this~" Jesus. That sort of petty squabbling is more of a problem, if you ask me. No wonder guys at the production level like Costa think all forums are the same.

MLP IS TOP-TIER

[Dominic]

It is a question of degree. Potter fans have both degree and volume of fannishness.

And, yes, this conversation exists.

This is a variant of the fan-shame that Prowl has on occassion. He is sick of the worst elements of the fandom being the most visible/vocal.


Dom

[Gomess]

It doesn't sound like a "conversation", though. It just sounds like certain nerds thinking they're "better nerds", and expressing it like children. If you really want the worst elements of a group to evolve, surely there are better methods than just constantly saying they suck.

I'll admit I'm out of my depth in this discussion, and for all I know the majority of Harry Potter / G.I. Joe / pro wrestling / whatever fans really could be raging douchebags. But even if that were true, so what? To coin a phrase, wutcha gun do 'bout it?

Seriously. I mean it. What should be done?

[Mako Crab]

The problem is that Costa wrote over the heads of too many of the fans. (And, the other problem is that he was not writing over the heads of Joe fans.

I disagree. Costa's themes were easy to identify. It's not like he was writing hard sci-fi or anything. His lifting of plots and themes from sci-fi literature is common knowledge by now. And I agree that he was incorporating some interesting ideas at times. Where Costa's writing falls short is the actual writing and dialogue. His ideas all sound great on paper, but it's all in the execution. I've been saying this for months now.

From the TFW summary (I still haven't listened to the podcast), it just sounds like Costa wasn't the right match for Transformers in the first place. The way he talks, it sounds like he came into the project over-thinking it. The fact that they're "not human" shouldn't have been a major hurdle for him. There are about a billion non-human characters in the mass media, and somehow they work pretty good. I really do think this is a case of Costa over-thinking it and coming into the project confused and without a solid grasp of the characters or concept. When he says that he can't understand why they even transform, that should've been a red-flag to get someone else on the project.

Again, I haven't listened to the whole podcast, but it sounds like he had no enthusiasm or desire to be working on Transformers.

[Dominic]

Well, the groups are largely self-selecting. So, self-regulation would be a possible remedy.

But, I do take your point.

A formal system would be nearly impossible. Can you imagine trying to come up with solid definitions that would required by formal regulation? (In wrestling for example, the distinciton between fans and workers is often blurry. And, how to monetize for the different vices? How to weigh resistance to change against a disconnect from reality?)

Of course, I do take your larger point. And, in this case, we should be less concerned with comparing outselves to other fandoms, (favourably or otherwise) than we should be with taking a good hard look in the mirror.

It's not like he was writing hard sci-fi or anything.

Hard sci fi has to do with practical application of concepts in science and politics/history. Big ideas are a different question. (You can have big ideas in a story that uses magic as part of its setting. Similarly, you can have "stuff what happens" using hard sci-fi principles.)

From the TFW summary (I still haven't listened to the podcast),

It starts at around the 5 minute mark, and the meat of it comes pretty quickly. Allocate ~90 minutes or so if I recall correctly.

There are about a billion non-human characters in the mass media, and somehow they work pretty good.

Costa's problem is that aliens should not act humans, otherwise the story should just be about humans.


Dom
-gves Costa points for actually saying it.

[Shockwave]

It doesn't sound like a "conversation", though. It just sounds like certain nerds thinking they're "better nerds", and expressing it like children. If you really want the worst elements of a group to evolve, surely there are better methods than just constantly saying they suck.

I'll admit I'm out of my depth in this discussion, and for all I know the majority of Harry Potter / G.I. Joe / pro wrestling / whatever fans really could be raging douchebags. But even if that were true, so what? To coin a phrase, wutcha gun do 'bout it?

Seriously. I mean it. What should be done?

Well I generally like the approach that both you and I take: Ignore the fandom at large, enjoy said properties as we see fit and only interact with those parts of the fandom that aren't douchebags (like the fine folks here and the better parts of TFW). I don't generally know what goes on at the larger websites like ATT or Allspark or the Walky-run Wiki because I don't go there. If it weren't for Dom's rantings about it I'd never know.

Cosplay should not count against a fandom (unless it's the eye raping kind where you get some huge fat hairy guy in an undersized Hermione Granger costume). Trekkies have been doing it for decades and other fandoms have just followed suit. And there's nothing wrong with that. Unless it's how they dress on a day to day basis, then there's some psych issues there. But at conventions, movie premiers, or other related events, fine.

Shockwave
-Dressed as Hagrid at the book 5 midnight release party at my local Borders. Won the costume contest and was on the news for it.

[Gomess]

I do take your point.

I do take your larger point.

Yeah, take my point, even as it grows larger. Yeahh.

gives Costa points

TWO-TIMING HUSSY

Dressed as Hagrid at the book 5 midnight release party at my local Borders. Won the costume contest and was on the news for it.

Well *now* I know how I'm gonna draw us.

[Shockwave]

Hey there we go, cosplay tfviews! It could be a photo of various action figures: Hagrid for me, Abe Lincoln for Scourge, Proto Man for O6, a wrestler for Dom...