Is Transformers an emotionally-stunted franchise?

[Dominic]

True, but again those complaints were still based on how you believed that the more obnoxious parts of the fandom would react. I still have to wonder, if you actually were to go back and read the comic while putting aside any considerations about the fandom, about anything else Roberts has written, about his motivations or any of it, how your perception would change or if it would change. Again, just you and the story and that's it. Or maybe I should be asking if that's something you can even do? Or are you so influenced by the rest of the fandom that you can't not think about it when reading? And I really hope I'm not sounding like a dick because I really don't mean to, I'm ultimately just trying to... I dunno. I'm gonna shut up now

I do see what you are saying. "Enjoy or avoid something on its own merits or lack of merit." And, objectively, you are right.

But, I do view creator intent as important when reading or watching something. I have seen this with other writers (like Busiek and Waid) who land the "dream job" and cannot control their inner fanboy. Even putting aside "those fans", I still have a hard time buying in for Roberts at this point. Why do I care about robots in space having movie night? Why is this worth my time to read?

I'm not personally able to read a media text without putting my opinions aside either, so I sympathise with Dom on that count.

I can read or watch something that I disagree with, and even give it points for technical competence. (For example, I am *not* a fan of Alan Moore. But, my biggest complaints about the "Watchmen" film are the changes made to make the movie more idiot friendly.

Thus we get stories about how Wheelie and Daniel, the "most hated" characters in TF at the time, are killed in battle against an army of Nightbird drones. Nightbird drones. Or stories about how Optimus Primal is a weak-minded fool and the Oracle is really an evil machination of the Quints in a bold attempt to denounce everything that Beast Machines was doing - in direct response to the fan outrage of the time.

In fairness to Fun Publications, those two stories were actually published by 3H Enterprises (Glen Hallit). They were indeed pandering, but they were not Fun Publications. And, they had a degree of technical skill and polish that Fun Publications generally lacks.

But in the case of FunPub, the stories, dialogue and characters are exceptionally bad on their own merits even after you look beyond the fan-pandering.

Oh hell yeah.

No two ways about it, Fun Publications is bad all around. I do not care if the staff are drawn from the fandom. Fun Publications tries to present (hee hee hee) itselt as a legitimate publisher. And, they try to market outside of the fandom. (Licensing and distribution issues were a problem in '05 or so. But, they still manage to get their "GI Joe" and "Transformers" comics out through Diamond every year.)

The art varies. There are some individual panels (some wasted by not being splash pages) that are good. More of the art is competent, with a significant amount of it being tryly abysmal.

The writing is, at its best, flat. The plotting is like something out of a kid's play session and the execution is piss poor. The BotCon comics are written by people who actually believe that the comics are good enough because they have Transformers in them. Their comics are actually worse than what was coming out 25 years ago, including intellectual and emotional depth.


Dom
-has sent JT compelling evidence of how bad Fun Publications is.

[Shockwave]

True, but again those complaints were still based on how you believed that the more obnoxious parts of the fandom would react. I still have to wonder, if you actually were to go back and read the comic while putting aside any considerations about the fandom, about anything else Roberts has written, about his motivations or any of it, how your perception would change or if it would change. Again, just you and the story and that's it. Or maybe I should be asking if that's something you can even do? Or are you so influenced by the rest of the fandom that you can't not think about it when reading? And I really hope I'm not sounding like a dick because I really don't mean to, I'm ultimately just trying to... I dunno. I'm gonna shut up now

I do see what you are saying. "Enjoy or avoid something on its own merits or lack of merit." And, objectively, you are right.

But, I do view creator intent as important when reading or watching something. I have seen this with other writers (like Busiek and Waid) who land the "dream job" and cannot control their inner fanboy. Even putting aside "those fans", I still have a hard time buying in for Roberts at this point. Why do I care about robots in space having movie night? Why is this worth my time to read?

Author intent can be important as it relates to the story. As much as I might fail to see Aslan as Jesus when I read the Chronicles of Narnia, I have acknowledge that he is because CS Lewis has actually stated that was his intent. And I have to acknowledge that because it's something that directly relates to the story. But, I do not care who CS Lewis was trying to write for when he wrote because it doesn't have any impact on the story.

I do get what you're saying. You started hating the book because Roberts was... aimless (for lack of a better term). But, the question (on the face of it) of why is robot movie night worth reading could apply to anything and everything? Why is robots fighting in space worth your time to read? See, for me, the reason it's been worth my time I think is largely because we've seen robots fighting in space so much that I actually like seeing them in peacetime doing "normal" things. It's new and different for Transformers.

[Mako Crab]

In fairness to Fun Publications, those two stories were actually published by 3H Enterprises (Glen Hallit). They were indeed pandering, but they were not Fun Publications. And, they had a degree of technical skill and polish that Fun Publications generally lacks.

Ah, okay. I can never keep it straight, which outfit wrote which stories. They all kind of blend into this Botcon/Collector's Club miasma. I should look into it for the sake of my own argument.

*looks it up*

Well. So both my examples were from the 3H era. *ahem* Still, fan-pandering of the worst kind. Looking over that list, it seems the only FunPub story I've read is "Dawn of Future's Past."

Got some time. Going to try and post some of my disparate thoughts on all this.

Right now there's an topic on TFW asking if a female Autobot or Decepticon could lead the factions. And I keep seeing a very specific view creeping into the discussion that says:

1. The Transformers have no gender.
2. A female-looking TF cannot lead the factions.

This makes no sense to me. If they're asexual, then it shouldn't matter how they look.

Another argument for their being asexual is that, by being genderless, the Transformers can tackle stories that challenge our own viewpoints and stereotypes in regards to gender roles. This is a great idea, and I would fully support it. However, Transformers has very rarely challenged its audience in such a way. I can't think of any examples aside from Rewind and Chromedome in MTMTE, both of Arcee's origin stories, and Cloudburst's encounter with the Femaxian leader in Marvel G1.

An extension of this argument cites the Gobots as being a good model for how Transformers should handle its female characters. In short- Go-Girls looked exactly like their male counterparts and except for a feminine voice or lipstick, there was absolutely no difference between them at all.

Take into account that Transformers is soft sci-fi, and the fact that, going on 30 years, this franchise has barely ever touched on gender roles or explored asexual relationships in any meaningful way. Then ask yourself, if the non-gendered, asexual nature of the Transformers isn't being explored, let alone barely addressed (especially during their time around humans), then what purpose does it serve?

Someone said it earlier, that a lot of fans want to "play Peter Pan without Wendy." And I can't help but feel that's a big part of what's going on with the asexual argument (there's a big disclaimer coming at the end of this post). From what I've seen in various gender discussions on the Allspark and TFW, a lot of people don't even want TFs that "look" female. It's alright if all the rest of them have typical human male superhero proportions with male voices, because male is the invisible gender (or more likely, it's mainly males making these arguments and have no problem with their own gender being represented). They don't want to see relationships of any kind, whether hetero or homo or asexual. Eliminating females and female-looking bots from the equation corners writers into pairing up two bots that look like guys or not having any relationships at all.

And I think that's the crux of it. They don't want relationships. They don't want anything beyond "war buddies." They want robots that fight, kill, and upgrade and not much else (Sorry to throw you under the bus there, TM).

Now for that DISCLAIMER
I'm not saying that everybody that prefers their Transformers to be non-gendered is against the inclusion of feminine-looking TFs. I know a lot of them really are looking at the potential of such stories that would address this aspect of their biology. Some of them really do want to see the TFs presented as alien as possible, and that's cool. My post is in regards to the "Ewww! Cooties!" segment of the fandom that would use the asexual argument to eliminate all girls, feminine voices and body types, and any relationship that's "more than friends" from the brand.
End of Disclaimer.

*takes a breath*

So My Little Pony: Friendship is magic. It came up in the conversation earlier, and it got me thinking. Both TFW and the Allspark have huge discussions devoted to this show. And let's make no mistake- all these guys wouldn't be running out, buying pony toys if if weren't for the show. The Allspark even created a sub-forum for it, because discussions were overwhelming the GD forum. In the context of the discussion here, I have to ask if maybe these fans are finding the emotional substance in MLP that Transformers tends to lack.

I do get what you're saying. You started hating the book because Roberts was... aimless (for lack of a better term). But, the question (on the face of it) of why is robot movie night worth reading could apply to anything and everything? Why is robots fighting in space worth your time to read? See, for me, the reason it's been worth my time I think is largely because we've seen robots fighting in space so much that I actually like seeing them in peacetime doing "normal" things. It's new and different for Transformers.

I don't know how strong the uproar was on all the other forums, but I know that a lot of people were pretty damn upset, when Barber brought Megatron back and is now seemingly restarting the same ol', same ol' war in RID.

[andersonh1]

Okay, no offense to anyone since I've never seen the show, but what is the deal with My Little Pony? I can't imagine anything that would make me interested in cutesy little toy ponies with brushable hair. I just can't. And yet the fandom for them is huge from what I can tell, and IDW says their MLP comics are best sellers for them. What gives?

[Shockwave]

I see it all the time on sites like TFW. Threads titled "Why all the hate for Miko?" or "Why does everyone love Shockwave?" (yes those are actual thread titles, I did not make those up). And really, my question is: Who cares? If you hate Miko, hate Miko and do so on your own terms. If you love Shockwave, again, do so on your own terms. I really just believe that we should all enjoy the franchise in the ways that we see fit without or with minimal outside influence.

I don't understand why you're puzzled by this. People like or dislike different things for different reasons; the entire reason we show up to discuss them, though, is because we're interested in why that is, and other people's takes on things, because they might actually make us see things in a different light, and also reveal things about us as people.

I mean, I don't like Prime. I've explained why before. But if there was someone on here who did really like Prime (...is there anyone?) I'd be interested in hearing why they think it is, because they can offer a perspective that I don't have. Now, just because they offered it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or actually let it affect me, but I am open to the idea. It is possible to convince me that watching Prime is a good idea--it's an uphill battle, but it's possible.

Upon retrospect, I decided I didn't like Classics Grimlock because of how small he is and because of his robot mode--other people, like yourself, obviously didn't find that an issue. Now, I'm not out to sit here and convince you that you should hate ClaGrims; I'm only offering my opinion so you can maybe understand why I didn't like it.

I probably phrased that wrong (or at least gave bad examples). I get all of this and it still makes sense to me. You still reviewed and formed your own opinion on those things on their own merit. You didn't look at Classics Grimlock and say "I hate this because obnoxious fans will like it." You looked at Classics Grimlock and decided that you didn't like it for your own reasons. Which what I was saying is how it should be.

And I certainly don't have objections to fans talking about things they like or don't like. Like you mentioned, sometimes that can even help out other fans make decisions about what to buy (I would cite Scourge's example from another long ago thread where he mentioned that he and I have similar tastes and so if I read that he likes something, chances are I'd like it too). Like I said, my examples were probably pretty bad for what I was trying to say.

I still have to wonder, if you actually were to go back and read the comic while putting aside any considerations about the fandom, about anything else Roberts has written, about his motivations or any of it, how your perception would change or if it would change. Again, just you and the story and that's it. Or maybe I should be asking if that's something you can even do? Or are you so influenced by the rest of the fandom that you can't not think about it when reading?

Dom is capable of doing it; read some of his retro comics reviews.

I understand why Dom tends to think the way he does, because he kind of sees comics as a dialogue, at least partially--a writer writes, a fan reacts, and the writer can then react back with his next writing. Whereas you don't really do that at all--half the time you don't even know or care who's writing it. (By your own admission!) In a lot of cases, Dom's analytical approach is actually a better one, because it can give you some understanding as to why certain things are...the way they are.

That's interesting, I guess I've never thought of it like that before. Usually I think of it like going to a movie. You go, you see the story and decide if I like it or not and then that's the end of it. I don't usually think that there would be any follow up based on anything I would say. I suppose it's indicative of how the internet has made the world smaller in some ways because now thanks to the internet it's easier for fans to reach and communicate with writers in ways they were never able to do before.

[Shockwave]

Okay, no offense to anyone since I've never seen the show, but what is the deal with My Little Pony? I can't imagine anything that would make me interested in cutesy little toy ponies with brushable hair. I just can't. And yet the fandom for them is huge from what I can tell, and IDW says their MLP comics are best sellers for them. What gives?

It's well written and doesn't talk down to it's audience. I find that the stories are often allegories for real world situations with lessons about having courage, valuing friendship and loyalty and things like that. But, bottom line, it's well written and that's why it's well liked.

[Mako Crab]

Okay, no offense to anyone since I've never seen the show, but what is the deal with My Little Pony? I can't imagine anything that would make me interested in cutesy little toy ponies with brushable hair. I just can't. And yet the fandom for them is huge from what I can tell, and IDW says their MLP comics are best sellers for them. What gives?

I enjoy the show for all the reasons Shockwave listed. But I'm not compelled to run out and buy the toys or anything. The stories and characters are just really well written.

[Shockwave]

Okay, no offense to anyone since I've never seen the show, but what is the deal with My Little Pony? I can't imagine anything that would make me interested in cutesy little toy ponies with brushable hair. I just can't. And yet the fandom for them is huge from what I can tell, and IDW says their MLP comics are best sellers for them. What gives?

I enjoy the show for all the reasons Shockwave listed. But I'm not compelled to run out and buy the toys or anything. The stories and characters are just really well written.

Me neither, but I do get the comics for the same reason I watch the show which is the stories.

[Dominic]

And I have to acknowledge that because it's something that directly relates to the story. But, I do not care who CS Lewis was trying to write for when he wrote because it doesn't have any impact on the story.

I am not sure how you can do that.

Lewis wrote what he wrote for a specific and stated reason. That is inevitably going to impact the tone and content of the book.

I do get what you're saying. You started hating the book because Roberts was... aimless (for lack of a better term). But, the question (on the face of it) of why is robot movie night worth reading could apply to anything and everything? Why is robots fighting in space worth your time to read?

I would not bother to read a book that was simply all "robot fights in space" either.

Right now there's an topic on TFW asking if a female Autobot or Decepticon could lead the factions. And I keep seeing a very specific view creeping into the discussion that says:

1. The Transformers have no gender.
2. A female-looking TF cannot lead the factions.

What is the context of those statements? Who said it and why?

And, is anybody else trying mightily not to make a joke about Override/Nitro Convoy (from "Cybertron"/"Galaxy Force") and then saying "whoops 'female looking'"?

However, Transformers has very rarely challenged its audience in such a way. I can't think of any examples aside from Rewind and Chromedome in MTMTE, both of Arcee's origin stories, and Cloudburst's encounter with the Femaxian leader in Marvel G1.

Not sure how much Arcee's UK origin really challenged much of anything. It was Furman being snarky about a cheap focus-grouped character that he got stuck with. "Prime's Rib" is one of the few examples of a TF story that was intentionally bad that I give a pass to.

The IDW origin had a bit mroe going on, and it definitely had more depth. But, it was still Furman shitting on the idea of female TFs.

The thing with Cloudburst and the Femaxian was more or less generic "boy meets powerful girl". And, Budiansky made sure to have both characters avoid any mix of meat and metal.

Take into account that Transformers is soft sci-fi, and the fact that, going on 30 years, this franchise has barely ever touched on gender roles or explored asexual relationships in any meaningful way. Then ask yourself, if the non-gendered, asexual nature of the Transformers isn't being explored, let alone barely addressed (especially during their time around humans), then what purpose does it serve?

By the same token, why should TF bother to tackle those questions. As I have said before, TF lends itself to tackling other issues. Why should it go out of its way to tacke gender questions?

From what I've seen in various gender discussions on the Allspark and TFW, a lot of people don't even want TFs that "look" female....

It is also a question of having girly looking robots is getting in to depths of Silver Age stupidity that most fans do not want to see in their comics.

Okay, no offense to anyone since I've never seen the show, but what is the deal with My Little Pony? I can't imagine anything that would make me interested in cutesy little toy ponies with brushable hair. I just can't. And yet the fandom for them is huge from what I can tell, and IDW says their MLP comics are best sellers for them. What gives?

The brushable hair on MLP figures is defintely a drawback. (Seriously, it looks like shit.) That is why I like the PVC figures. (I flip through the comic, but generally do not buy it because I am trying to cut down in general.)

"My LIttle Pony" is a pretty good show. And, it taps in to something that resonates with people in general, but likely toy/comic fans in particular. (This is derived significantly from a recent phone conversation I had with Honey Bear.)

A big theme in "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" is hope. Every character is flawed, but they are shown to be able to function and do pretty well. The main arc of the series is Twilight Sparkly looking to find a function, a reason, in her life. All of the other main characters have a purpose. Some of the minor characters are looking for a purpose.

Consider some of the stereotypes about toy or comic collectors, and the uncomfortable degree of truth that they arguably have. Immature. Feckless. Aimless. Now, there may be some fans who do not reflect on those things or their lives as a whole. But, others, on some level, do. (As Honey Bear put it, everybody he knows who likes MLP is fundamentally unhappy with their life in some way.) The idea of finding a purpose in life and being able to live by that purpose, (be it selling candy, tending a farm or maintaining weather patterns), has obvious appeal.

Of course, I have seen some fans try to read dark undertones in to that. As they see it, a pony's purpose becoming apparent is akin to having their fate sealed. And, the pony following that purpose is a question of compulsion more than being lucky enough to have an apparent path in life. (And, that is from fans of the show.)


Dom
-was actually wondering when somebody was going to bring up "My LIttle Pony: Friendship is Magic".

[Onslaught Six]

Don't let anyone fool you--the pony stuff started when 4chan saw that the Hub was getting a new MLP series, and decided to spam posts about it all over /co/ (the cartoon and comics board) for about a month. Then people started actually watching it, and there you go. It started ironically.

Honestly, I'm pretty repulsed by the larger "brony" fandom because they took something that was supposed to be targetted at little girls (who don't exactly have a whole lot of media they can turn to that isn't going to talk down to them) and made it about them again. And too many of them are generally horrible people.