TF Views

Sparky Prime wrote:

Dominic wrote:What Anderson and I are saying is that even the stuff that has carried over has been significantly altered.

You don't know that definitively. Sure some events it's obvious must have happened somewhat differently given some of the changes we have seen thus far, but that doesn't necessarily mean all of the things that have been carried over has been significantly altered or even altered at all. DC really hasn't gotten into that much detail to know how things may or may not have changed.

And after 12 months, that's really a problem.

In terms, that makes post-"Flash Point" DC a new universe.

No it does not. Altering the events of the universe just alters the events of the universe, but it is still the same universe.

In major terms? Yeah it does.

If it's still "technically the same universe" but this handful of stuff didn't happen and this other stuff happened differently, then there's almost zero point in considering it the same universe at all, because that difference in events is going to shape the characters and future events of that universe.

Let's do an exercise. Let's say they make a blasphemous sequel to Watchmen. CRISIS ON INFINITE WATCHMANS, let's call it, because it doesn't matter.

In the course of this, History Changes Irrevocably to the point where Hollis Mason, the first Nite Owl, never became a superhero (or "costumed adventurer" or whatever). This will fundamentally change who Dan Dreiberg, the second Nite Owl, is. As comics fans, we might not like to acknowledge that, and comics creators like to throw around a bunch of bullshit and somehow Dan would still become Nite Owl and look the way he did, but the real fact is that he wouldn't be the same functional character.

Now, while that gives Anderson some ammunition, I'm going to immediately counter and say that shit doesn't really matter anyway because if you like comic books and you *don't* enjoy multiple different incarnations of characters, then why the fuck are you reading comic books at all? Lee and Ditko's Spiderman is functionally a different character from McFarlane's Spiderman because he's not written by the same guy and it's impossible for him to be exactly the same. Similarly, Roberts/Barber's Transformers is not Costa's Transformers is not McCarthy's Transformers is not Furman's Transformers. My relationship with IDW's comics has been incredibly on/off for this very reason, and yet I don't ever really complain about it because, hey, when there's no good current TF being published, I can always go back and praise the old stuff.

Onslaught Six wrote:Now, while that gives Anderson some ammunition, I'm going to immediately counter and say that shit doesn't really matter anyway because if you like comic books and you *don't* enjoy multiple different incarnations of characters, then why the fuck are you reading comic books at all?

For me it depends on the scale of the change, and whether it occurs organically over time or all at once. And it helps that if I don't like the change even then that there's still the rest of any given comic universe that's unchanged that I can fall back on. That's what I'm saying about DC. It's been a lot of changes, some pretty major, all at once. A few retcons or character changes such as the ones we saw in Zero Hour or Infinite Crisis are something I can live with, because the characters are largely the same afterwards. An across the board butchering of history, characters and character traits is something that has really killed my enjoyment of DC. If I don't like what's been done to a character there's really nowhere to go since the entire universe has been altered.

Change is a constant in comics. It depends on how much and how that relates to the larger comic book universe around it.

Similarly, Roberts/Barber's Transformers is not Costa's Transformers is not McCarthy's Transformers is not Furman's Transformers. My relationship with IDW's comics has been incredibly on/off for this very reason, and yet I don't ever really complain about it because, hey, when there's no good current TF being published, I can always go back and praise the old stuff.

I said something along these lines while discussing MTMTE's version of Ratchet, who I really can't see as the same character we saw back in Infiltration. He's characterized very differently. Yeah, it bothers mie a little bit, but the universe and book he's in are pretty entertaining, so I just chalk it up to the passage of time and otherwise just don't let it bother me.

DC had that chance. Keep in mind that I bought 14 titles from the New 52, and I was willing to give them a chance. I was even pretty enthusiastic about a couple of the titles to begin with, like Aquaman and Action Comics. Had the stories blown me away or kept me enthused I might have been able to tolerate all the changes. Had the characters been much the same I could have put up with the less than stellar writing quality. The combination of stories I don't like or don't care about combined with drastic character changes means that everything went wrong with DC. And the blank canvas that is their history combined with slipshod continuity makes the whole thing worse.

With IDW, I've still been able to find something to enjoy in every version of Transformers they've published so far, even if the universe and characters aren't as consistent and cohesive as I'd like.

I don't blame you for not being interested in DC's offerings right now, mind. I eventually dropped Animal Man mostly due to financial issues if anything, but the fact that I was able to just plonk it shows that I clearly wasn't all that invested. (The same with Scarlet Spider and Venom, mind you, which I also dropped due to financials and the fact that they'd be collected much cheaper later on.)

Onslaught Six wrote:And after 12 months, that's really a problem.

How so? The first year of establishing a new status quo and developing those stories, I really wouldn't expect them to dwell on past events that much. And that was sort of the point of many of the zero issues this month, to go back and fill in a few gaps.

In major terms? Yeah it does.

If it's still "technically the same universe" but this handful of stuff didn't happen and this other stuff happened differently, then there's almost zero point in considering it the same universe at all, because that difference in events is going to shape the characters and future events of that universe.

In major terms, no, it is still fundamentally the same universe. This isn't so extreme as a hero never having become the hero in the first place and all the consequences that implies, as you'd suggest with your "exercise". Here for example, Bruce Wayne still became Batman and he still had a flock of Robin sidekicks. Sure some of the hows and whys are a bit different, but they still ended up pretty much in the same place they were before Flashpoint didn't they? Just because some events have changed or didn't happen doesn't make it a different universe. And you can't just ignore that some events have carried over as well. It's the same universe, only given a somewhat different shape if you will.

That is not true for all of the characters from what we have seen so far.

Except that, uh, it is. Pretty much every character has been de-aged, if only by a few years. (Others, like Alan Scott have been de-aged by *decades*.) I am not against this in principle. It simply is what it is. (I would have preferred that Alan Scott and Jay Garrick simply died and were replaced. But, whatever.

You are saying that little has changed because we still have Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern or Tim Drake as the Red Robin (tiddly diddly deet, twiddly diddtly deet, twid-did, diddly deet, he rocks in the tree-tops all day long, rockin' and a rollin' and oh lord I am so tired) and Barry Allen is the Flash.

Now, for Kyle to be a GL, Hal needs to have gone crazy....after Coast City was wiped out....during the "Reign of the Supermen" after Superman was apparently killed by Doomsday. (Many, the last 5 years were *really* hectic in the DC huh?) Or, more likely , we just assume that those events did not happen as they did pre-"Flash Point".

At this point, it looks like Wally West was never the Flash. What happened when Barry died in CoIE? Did he die? Did CoIE even happen? (My guess on the last two questions is "no", which also resolves the first.) Having a character death completely undone is far from unprecedented. Supergirl's death in CoIE was undone by CoIE itself. Initially, it was because Kara never existed. Then, shortly before the Crisis Trilogy, Supergirl was re-introduced as if nothing had happened....because nothing in fact had happened. (And, the snot-blob copyright place-holder Supergirl of the 90s has been written out entirely as of "Infinite Crisis".)

No it does not. Altering the events of the universe just alters the events of the universe, but it is still the same universe.

Not in real terms.

For the purposes of current DC, Tim Drake was never Robin. Martion Manhunter was a charter member of Storm Watch. Superboy was not created by Cadmus after "Doomsday" but as a counter-measure to superhumans (with some bad-guy conspiracy stuff mixed in).

Change is a constant in comics. It depends on how much and how that relates to the larger comic book universe around it.

I have to disagree. Marvel is all about *not* changing. I flipped through "Galactic Storm" recently, and plan to read all the way through soonishly. How many of the big changes made in that story, never mind others that were evident at the time, stuck? How many times since then have the Avengers and other characters been set back to basic-spec?

This isn't so extreme as a hero never having become the hero in the first place and all the consequences that implies, as you'd suggest with your "exercise". Here for example, Bruce Wayne still became Batman and he still had a flock of Robin sidekicks. Sure some of the hows and whys are a bit different, but they still ended up pretty much in the same place they were before Flashpoint didn't they? Just because some events have changed or didn't happen doesn't make it a different universe. And you can't just ignore that some events have carried over as well. It's the same universe, only given a somewhat different shape if you will.

Why do I get the feeling that you are cleverly misunderstanding Anderson's point? (It is possible to understand his point and disagree with it.)

Wally West was not the Flash. Tim Drake was never Robin. Obsidian and Jade never fucking existed. That does not sound like the old DCU that we all know. (And, I am saying this as somebody who is okay in principle with the various changes.)

And, yes, other characters are more or less in the place that DC put them before "Flash Point". But, the how and why they got there is different. What Anderson and O6 are saying is that the character's origins have, by necessity, changed after "Flash Point" (as described above). Some events simply did not happen. Others would have happened much differently. The leaves readers with a basic sense that "some stuff happened over the last 5 to 10 years", but it is effectively *new* stuff that happened. In practical terms, DC has started over from scratch. (Most any story you read is going to have some events assumed in its past because very few stories start with some variation "In the beginning....")

And after 12 months, that's really a problem.

Excactly.

This is even more of a problem considering that DC has plenty of institutional know-how for handing this sort of thing. Based on reports that we have heard, there was no planning for what to do after "Flash Point". Nobody told Perez what he was supposed to be doing with Superman, and there was confusion.

An even better example and piece of evidence for DC's poor planning (and this totally warrants a larger font): DC is editing books after they have been published, distributed and sold. Look at the comparison scans that were linked earlier in the thread. "Tim Drake was Robin. Whoops, no he was not." That kind of "tweak" would have been extreme after CoIE, when DC was still on the learning curve. Now, it just shows that DC was not planning ahead beyond "let's hit the reset button". DC was arguably selling unfinished comics as part of their "New 52" promotion.


Keep in mind that I am saying this as somebody who is liking some of the New 52. "Earth 2" completely over-writes some old comics that I liked. But, I am liking that book. (Aside: I just realized that Earth 2, the planet, looks a lot like Apokolips. Given that Earth 2's gods are all dead, I gotta wonder what this means....) But, DC has been sloppy at the editorial level.



Dom
-kinda wants to read "Nightwing" and "Red Hood" this week.....

Dominic wrote:Except that, uh, it is. Pretty much every character has been de-aged, if only by a few years. (Others, like Alan Scott have been de-aged by *decades*.) I am not against this in principle. It simply is what it is. (I would have preferred that Alan Scott and Jay Garrick simply died and were replaced. But, whatever.

Alan Scott is in Earth 2, which is a separate universe... again. That doesn't count towards the characters in the main DCU. And I doubt pretty much every character was de-aged here. Some certainly were, but not as many as you seem to think. Not to mention de-aging (either by an in story explanation or sleight of hand) is hardly anything new to comics.

You are saying that little has changed because we still have Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern or Tim Drake as the Red Robin (tiddly diddly deet, twiddly diddtly deet, twid-did, diddly deet, he rocks in the tree-tops all day long, rockin' and a rollin' and oh lord I am so tired) and Barry Allen is the Flash.

If that's what you think I've been saying then you haven't read my posts at all. What did I actually say about Kyle? That he was still selected by Ganthet after Hal decimated the Corps. That his girlfriend was still shoved into a refrigerator. Red Robin? Granted his history has changed a fair bit but he was still a sidekick to Batman after having impressed him with his detective skills and that he still ended up flying solo recently. Barry I haven't even mentioned.

Now, for Kyle to be a GL, Hal needs to have gone crazy....after Coast City was wiped out....during the "Reign of the Supermen" after Superman was apparently killed by Doomsday. (Many, the last 5 years were *really* hectic in the DC huh?) Or, more likely , we just assume that those events did not happen as they did pre-"Flash Point".

Except it has already been established Kyle still became a GL after Hal went crazy and decimated the Corps. You can't just assume those events didn't happen when that much is established already.

At this point, it looks like Wally West was never the Flash. What happened when Barry died in CoIE? Did he die? Did CoIE even happen? (My guess on the last two questions is "no", which also resolves the first.) Having a character death completely undone is far from unprecedented. Supergirl's death in CoIE was undone by CoIE itself. Initially, it was because Kara never existed. Then, shortly before the Crisis Trilogy, Supergirl was re-introduced as if nothing had happened....because nothing in fact had happened. (And, the snot-blob copyright place-holder Supergirl of the 90s has been written out entirely as of "Infinite Crisis".)

Wally West hasn't even appeared in the New 52. We have no idea where he is or what has become of him. You're making assumptions with nothing to support it one way or another here.

Not in real terms.

Finally we agree on something.

For the purposes of current DC, Tim Drake was never Robin. Martion Manhunter was a charter member of Storm Watch. Superboy was not created by Cadmus after "Doomsday" but as a counter-measure to superhumans (with some bad-guy conspiracy stuff mixed in).

Tim Drake may not have been Robin, but he was still Batman's sidekick as Red Robin. So what if Martian Manhunter helped form Storm Watch? They'd been their own universe before Flashpoint, so that's how they decided to incorporate them more into the DC universe. Superboy is one of the most radically changed characters here, but still a half clone of Superman. And bad guy conspiracy was always part of his story. You do know who the other half of Superboy's DNA came from, right?

Why do I get the feeling that you are cleverly misunderstanding Anderson's point? (It is possible to understand his point and disagree with it.)

Uh, that was O6 I was responding to, not andersonh1. And what gives you the impression I misunderstood anything? The example he gave does not fit the situation here at all.

Wally West was not the Flash. Tim Drake was never Robin. Obsidian and Jade never fucking existed. That does not sound like the old DCU that we all know. (And, I am saying this as somebody who is okay in principle with the various changes.)

How do you know Wally was never the Flash? Again, he hasn't even appeared in the New 52. We have no idea what happened to him. Tim may not have been Robin, but he was still Batman's side kick and still had Robin in the name (you know, being Red Robin and all). Obsidian and Jade don't exist here anymore because Earth 2 is a separate universe again where the characters have been much more radically changed than the main DC universe. Again, you're making assumptions with nothing to support it and over generalizing while over looking facts of events that have been shown to carry over post-Flashpoint.

And, yes, other characters are more or less in the place that DC put them before "Flash Point". But, the how and why they got there is different.

Not for all of them it isn't, as I've already pointed out. And the title was Flashpoint, not Flash Point.

What Anderson and O6 are saying is that the character's origins have, by necessity, changed after "Flash Point" (as described above). Some events simply did not happen. Others would have happened much differently. The leaves readers with a basic sense that "some stuff happened over the last 5 to 10 years", but it is effectively *new* stuff that happened. In practical terms, DC has started over from scratch. (Most any story you read is going to have some events assumed in its past because very few stories start with some variation "In the beginning....")

Some origins have changed, some have not. Some events didn't happen anymore, some still have. It's not all or nothing here. DC hasn't started from scratch at all. Practical or otherwise. Granted a lot has changed but we also see past events still count here. It's not all new, nor it is all old. It's a blend. And it's not all this huge drastic difference some make it out to be.

An even better example and piece of evidence for DC's poor planning

I will grant you DC has done a fairly poor job with planning things out after Flashpoint, but I still say not dwelling on past events too much within the first year is a downfall here. It makes sense they'd spend time developing and fleshing out the new status quo. Now that they've done that, we see them starting to go back and fill in the gaps with many of the zero issues this month. And sure, they changed their minds on some things since the relaunch, which is stupid they'd go back and change it for the TPB's but that's not the same issue as them spending the time developing the status quo in the meantime.

Green Lantern: The New Guardians #0
Kyle goes looking for Hal to let him know what has been happening with the Guardians since he was kicked out of the Corps and instead finds Carol, who discovers an engagement ring in Hal's locker. They find out Hal and Sinestro are fighting Black Hand from the news and go to help out but by the time they arrive only zombies are left. Kyle is able to channel Blue and Green at the same time as they are overwhelmed. Unable to find Hal, Kyle's ring reports he is dead, but Carol feels he is still alive and is able to show Kyle his destiny is to learn to control all of the Spectrum. Meanwhile, The Guardians meet with the Zamarons and agree to join together to usher in their new era.

Nice to finally get some confirmation that it was the Guardians behind the attempts to destroy the other Corps we've seen in the last year. Interestingly, we really haven't seen them go after the Star Sapphire's but the Zamarons mention they have a plan to do so now that they are joining forces with the Guardians. Kinda cool to see a preview of Kyle with each individual color. Also really like Carol's new look that was introduced with this issue.

Green Lantern #0
Simon Baz steals a van that just so happens to have a bomb in it, and in an effort to save people, drives it to a factory he knows is empty. He's arrested as a suspected terrorist and, despite his cooperation in admitting to being a car thief, the Feds don't believe him. Unwilling to believe him just a car thief and part of a larger plot, they prepare to water board him for more information when Sinestro and Hal's re-merged ring selects him and breaks him out. The Justice League intercepts that information. Meanwhile, Hal and Sinestro themselves are... somewhere dark.

So, yeah, some obvious social commentary here about racial profiling. Although I think the theme of this issue is more to set up the Simon tends to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and makes some bad decisions, yet he still has the makings of a hero within him and ultimately does the right thing here at his own sacrifice.

Spider-Men #5
Everybody gangs up on Mysterio who cannot resist opening the portal one more time even though he knows he could just keep it closed and stay in the 616 universe with out its Spider-Man. He's got one more trick up his sleeve but Miles ends up taking him down. Peter says his goodbyes giving Miles his blessing but is sent home before he finishes his advice. Back home, Peter is curious to learn if there is a Miles Morals here are well... and his shocked by what he finds online apparently.

-Honestly disappointed by this final issue. Just didn't live up to the hype or the quality of the last 4 issues, and it seemed like too easy of an ending with Mysterio really not much of a threat here. Also don't get how Mysterio somehow built a portal to another world in the first place. It just doesn't fit his character in my view. He's an expert at making illusions look real, not super science stuff like portals to other worlds. At any rate, apparently Ultimate Mysterio and 616 Mysterio are one in the same, and now Mysterio is stuck in the Ultimate universe. This issue also leaves off on a bit of a cliffhanger with Peter's reaction to some unseen google search for his world's Miles Morals.

Alan Scott is in Earth 2, which is a separate universe... again. That doesn't count towards the characters in the main DCU. And I doubt pretty much every character was de-aged here. Some certainly were, but not as many as you seem to think. Not to mention de-aging (either by an in story explanation or sleight of hand) is hardly anything new to comics.

And, Alan Scott has been removed from DC's main Earth. Or, if there was an Alan Scott, he and the rest of the "old JSA" lived and likely died without ever having gotten powers. Even if you say that "Earth 2 Alan Scott =/= main Alan Scott", the main Alan Scott has clearly been changed by virtue of not having been a costumed hero. And, these same changes also put paid to Obsidian and Jade.

Red Robin? Granted his history has changed a fair bit but he was still a sidekick to Batman after having impressed him with his detective skills and that he still ended up flying solo recently. Barry I haven't even mentioned.

Tim Drake may not have been Robin, but he was still Batman's sidekick as Red Robin. So what if Martian Manhunter helped form Storm Watch?

Those are examples of things that have changed, but after "Flashpoint" ended up more or less where they were *immediately* before "Flashpoint", even if their origins and histories would have been necessarily changed.

It's not all or nothing here. DC hasn't started from scratch at all. Practical or otherwise. Granted a lot has changed but we also see past events still count here. It's not all new, nor it is all old. It's a blend. And it's not all this huge drastic difference some make it out to be.

The changes are by degree. Anderson and O6 are saying that the changes are severe enough to make new 52 DC in to something substantively different from pre-"Flashpoint" DC.

Nice to finally get some confirmation that it was the Guardians behind the attempts to destroy the other Corps we've seen in the last year. Interestingly, we really haven't seen them go after the Star Sapphire's but the Zamarons mention they have a plan to do so now that they are joining forces with the Guardians. Kinda cool to see a preview of Kyle with each individual color.

I gotta wonder if this is a pre-amble to "getting rid of the Skittles rainbow corps". And, is anybody else wondering if Rainbow Lantern Kyle is going to put Black Lantern Hal in the ground for good?



Cobra #17:
And, I learned a hard lesson with this issue. *Always double check the cover before buying.* I never specified preferred covers for this series, so this is my fault. And, I saw both covers on the shelves this past weekend. But, for whatever reason, I did not check the copy that was in my file. (The Fuso cover references the story. The cover I got was just retro character models. Of course, given that the other IDW book is using old character models, the non-Fuso cover is not wholly out of order.) Costa retreads Bludd's origin from "Hearts and Mind" and expands it a bit beyond "Bludd is a rational bad guy" while staying true to the basic concept. Costa feints a "bad guy has a point" moment, and immediately refutes it through Flint. The whole thing fits nicely with Costa's running theme of conflating the two teams. Oh, and IDW's Oktober Guard shows up. If this were written by anybody but Costa, I would be more wary.
Grade: A/B


Spider-Men #5:
And...it ends. I have to agree with Sparky on this one. It is not bad, but it is flat. Bendis spends this issue moving the characters around. If there is ever any follow up to the last page "reveal", (that is not actually shown to the readers), it is likely to be for a sequel. If Bendis writes that sequel, I will be in for it, even though it will also mean that "Spider-Men" was the "first of many", rather than a "one off thing". Earlier issues, particularly issue 4, have some legitimately good moments. And, Pichelli's art is some of the best "Spider-Man" art around. This series is worth picking up if you can find it, but not worth going out of your way to find.
Grade: C




Dom
-more zero issues and some more "Ultimates" this week.

Dominic wrote:The changes are by degree. Anderson and O6 are saying that the changes are severe enough to make new 52 DC in to something substantively different from pre-"Flashpoint" DC.

You've boiled it down nicely. The degree of change has been far greater than anything since Crisis, and I would argue that in many ways it's been a greater degree of change than Crisis made.

Dominic wrote:And, Alan Scott has been removed from DC's main Earth. Or, if there was an Alan Scott, he and the rest of the "old JSA" lived and likely died without ever having gotten powers. Even if you say that "Earth 2 Alan Scott =/= main Alan Scott", the main Alan Scott has clearly been changed by virtue of not having been a costumed hero. And, these same changes also put paid to Obsidian and Jade.

Removed from the main DC Earth being the key phrase there. He is no longer part of that universe here. He is a part of a brand new Earth 2 universe now. The changes of the main DC universe does not apply to him being a part of a totally different universe now.

Those are examples of things that have changed, but after "Flashpoint" ended up more or less where they were *immediately* before "Flashpoint", even if their origins and histories would have been necessarily changed.

How much has really been changed though? Just because Tim called himself Red Robin from the beginning of his costumed career, that doesn't mean his history is that irrecoverably changed. We see he was still always a brilliant detective in his own right. He was still Batman's sidekick for a time. Certainly some of the adventures he had as Robin pre-Flashpoint could have still happened, albeit with him in a slightly different identity, but still the same character he always was.

The changes are by degree. Anderson and O6 are saying that the changes are severe enough to make new 52 DC in to something substantively different from pre-"Flashpoint" DC.

I get that. But I don't agree, which is what I've been saying here.

I gotta wonder if this is a pre-amble to "getting rid of the Skittles rainbow corps". And, is anybody else wondering if Rainbow Lantern Kyle is going to put Black Lantern Hal in the ground for good?

The Emotional Spectrum is too popular of an idea for them to end it here. I fully expect this storyline to continue to expand on the concept. And I get the impression they will need the Black Lanterns help this time to defeat the Guardians and their Third Army.