Transformers - ongoing series

[Dominic]

And even in that event, not once anywhere was it even suggested that Spike personally was buying alien tech from anyone until the very last issue when it was necessary to wrap up the plot. A little foreshadowing goes a long ways.

It may have been somebody above Spike. Spike is just going to be the fall guy in that scenario. But, they are pretty clear in the first issue, (maybe the Prowl special), that the humans are making aggressive use of Cybertronian tech. We know that TFs are working with humans around the world. And, The Combaticons mention Swindle during "International Incident". He has clearly been busy.

You wouldn't be able to trust the seller, so why trust the tech they're selling you?

Because it is the best option that you have, and you are smart enough to recognize the difference between individual and aggregate.

Ever see a movie called Lord of War? Nicholas Cage and Jared Leto are in it. Cage is an illegal arms dealer and basically spend the whole movie making a lot of money and running away from Ethan Hawke who works for the CIA or the ATF or something. At the end Ethan Hawke catches Nick Cage and Nick Cage is all, "Well, good job, sport, but I'll tell you what's going to happen: In about two minutes a general will walk in here, tell you you're an awesome dude, and you'll probably get a medal and a bigass promotion and everything. But I won't do one second of jail time. Because some of the dudes I sell guns to are the enemies of 'your' enemies. And sometimes it's embarassing for the President to have his fingerprints all over the guns. Sometimes he needs a guy like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying."

There are free-lance mercenary pilots who make stupid amonts of money at this sort of thing. They are often more qualified than US pilots, which means they often get jobs that do not even need to be denied.

As for this being "believable" or having anything "lead up" to it--what's the deal, dude? The weapons had to come from somewhere. Is there something *wrong* with a plot twist that didn't have ten months of EPIC OMG FORESHADOWING? I mean, many of us were outright complaining a couple weeks ago because The Death Of Optimus Prime was outright stated to happen and everything--a bunch of us saying, "Man, I wish comics would surprise me once in a while instead of this shit." Then Costa drops this on us. "Man, why wasn't this lead up to and foreshadowed?"

Badabingaling.


Dom
-would probably be one of the people calling for a Spike amnesty, just sayin'....

[Sparky Prime]

Sure is naive in here.

War is war. People do underhanded deals all the time with people they can't be seen doing deals with, because they have things that those people need.

Who is being naive here? You don't make deals with the enemy in war. Swindle isn't just some middle man working both sides here. He is a Decepticon. And keep in mind also, the humans really didn't care about the difference between Autobots and Decepticons until the alliance was made with the Autobots, they were indiscriminately capturing Cybertronians from both sides. Doesn't really speak for a good business venture for Swindle to get into.

Swindle saw an opportunity--a guy who hated Transformers and would do anything to help destroy them. And who better to help him than someone who 'is' a Transformer? He'd know more about them than Spike would. And Swindle's a smart talker; he can probably bullshit Spike into believing anything. And Spike probably did have his own plan--use the tech until he didn't need Swindle anymore, and then turn on him.

Well that sounds like an awfully one sided deal. What does Swindle get out of it? He's not just going to hand over weapons for nothing in return that could so easily be used against himself. And with Spike's hatred and skepticism of Cybertronians, I doubt he'd be so easily taken in by Swindle's smooth talking.

As for this being "believable" or having anything "lead up" to it--what's the deal, dude? The weapons had to come from somewhere.

Several organizations have had access to Cybertronians before in the IDW setting. Why couldn't they have figured out how to reverse engineer that tech by now? I mean, that's pretty much what we were lead to believe up until this point. Why did they have to get it from Swindle?

I also think a lot of this is some of you might still be thinking of Spike as 'Spike,' when the fact is that as of AHM he's a totally different character. It'd be like complaining that Megatron and Galvatron are different guys at this point.

I'm not seeing Spike as 'Spike' at all. What I'm seeing is a character who, in the context of this story, totally hates the Transformers, yet inexplicably was willing to make a deal with one of them.

It may have been somebody above Spike. Spike is just going to be the fall guy in that scenario.

That wouldn't explain why Spike immediately became a fugitive as soon as all this came out. He clearly already knew what he was in for, meaning he's not just a fall guy. All indications is everybody above Spike simply were looking the other way, letting him get away with it until now.

Because it is the best option that you have, and you are smart enough to recognize the difference between individual and aggregate.

Given Spike's hatred of the Transformers and indiscriminate attitude towards Decepticons and Autobots, I can't see him caring about the difference between an individual and an aggregate prior to the alliance with the Autobots. And I really don't see how making a deal with the enemy is the best option, when again, several organizations on Earth have had time to capture, study and develop tech reverse engineered from Cybertronians, including the Skywatch organization that Spike ends up working for.

[Dominic]

Most of this is something that I have already adressed.

Who is being naive here? You don't make deals with the enemy in war.

Bullshit. History undermines you on this. Hell, there are examples from fiction that undermine you on this.

What does Swindle get out of it?

Food/fuel seems to be a good default currency. Hell, freedom of movement. It would have been a buyer's market.

And with Spike's hatred and skepticism of Cybertronians, I doubt he'd be so easily taken in by Swindle's smooth talking.

Spike, or whoever the buyer was, would have seen a good opprotunity. Unless they were petulent children, they would take advantage of it, hatreds be damned.

That wouldn't explain why Spike immediately became a fugitive as soon as all this came out. He clearly already knew what he was in for, meaning he's not just a fall guy. All indications is everybody above Spike simply were looking the other way, letting him get away with it until now.

Somebody had to take a fall. And, Spike was the only one concretely linked to Swindle and any other crimes. There were reasonable suspicions that somebody above Spike was in on, or at least allowing, Spike's antics. But, no evidence that we see. Spike, not being an idiot, knew enough to go on the lamb.

I can't see him caring about the difference between an individual and an aggregate prior to the alliance with the Autobots.

Spike is clearly show to recognize individuals when he says to Prowl that there have been Autobots that he liked, if not trusted.


Dom
=grounding people...grounding.

[Sparky Prime]

Bullshit. History undermines you on this. Hell, there are examples from fiction that undermine you on this.

Such as? You're not supporting your argument at all Dom with out citing some examples to back it up.

Food/fuel seems to be a good default currency. Hell, freedom of movement. It would have been a buyer's market.

You assume. But the story offers nothing as an explanation here.

Spike, or whoever the buyer was, would have seen a good opprotunity. Unless they were petulent children, they would take advantage of it, hatreds be damned.

Again, you're totally ignoring that Cybertronians had just devastated the planet. Opportunity or not, there is no way a human would be so trusting of a Cybertronian as you suggest.

Somebody had to take a fall. And, Spike was the only one concretely linked to Swindle and any other crimes. There were reasonable suspicions that somebody above Spike was in on, or at least allowing, Spike's antics. But, no evidence that we see. Spike, not being an idiot, knew enough to go on the lamb.

Obviously someone was allowing it. Spike wouldn't be able to just show up with Mech suits out of the blue with out some questions. But again, all indications is Spike is responsible, not just a fall guy.

Spike is clearly show to recognize individuals when he says to Prowl that there have been Autobots that he liked, if not trusted.

He says that after they made alliance and had been working together for a while. What about before? This is the thing you don't seem to be getting. You have to see things from Spike's perspective immediately after AHM, because that's when this deal with Swindle would have taken place, not after the alliance with the Autobots. Spike's not going to care what an Autobot or Decepticon is as we see them indiscriminately capture both sides before the alliance is made.

=grounding people...grounding.

Your grounding seems more like a slippery slope...

[Mako Crab]

Regardless of Spike's motives or who bought what, this was just piss poor writing. You guys can defend it all you like, but it just reads like a lazy deus ex machina (Swindle) was thrown in to end the story. And yes, 06, it does matter (to me) to lay the groundwork for a major plot twist that's designed to end the alliance with the humans, make Spike a bad guy, persuade the Autobots to leave Earth, and end the ongoing. By tossing in something out of left field, the ending feels artificial and unsatisfying.

But I think my point has been made. You guys aren't disagreeing that there was NO foreshadowing or foundation laid for the big plot twist. We just disagree as to whether that lack of setup is good or bad. I think it's bad writing. Some of you are happy with it. And that's where we're stuck.

Frankly, Costa can't get off this book soon enough. I sincerely wish him success with G.I. Joe and whatever he does next, and I genuinely hope he gets better at his craft. He *does* have some good ideas, but he needs a lot of work on his execution.

[Dominic]

Swindle shows up as a major player in the first arc. He is mentioned prominently in the second. And, the reveal in the third arc makes sense.

Transfans are the only ones who seem to have a consist problem with Costa's writing. Just sayin'......

Such as? You're not supporting your argument at all Dom with out citing some examples to back it up.

Robert Hansen.
Aldrich Eames. (I do not feel like checking the spelling.)
Any FBI/CIA informant/asset/agent in the field.

As, as an example from fiction, The Hunt of Red October. (Trusting the Captain of a Soviet super duper sub?

Wow, deals and trust across the lines.



Dom
-and no direct WWII references or Godwin's law breaking. Bawls out awesome.

[Sparky Prime]

Robert Hansen.
Aldrich Eames. (I do not feel like checking the spelling.)
Any FBI/CIA informant/asset/agent in the field.

Spy's, counter-intelligence and law enforcement operations? That's not even close to the same thing we're talking about here Dom. It's their jobs to infiltrate behind enemy lines, gain their trust covertly and then help bring them down. Swindle and Spike were just dealing weapons and whatever Swindle got out of the deal.

As, as an example from fiction, The Hunt of Red October. (Trusting the Captain of a Soviet super duper sub?

Again, that's not the same thing.

Wow, deals and trust across the lines.

I doubt Swindle or Spike would trust each other at all. Which is my point, why would they be dealing with each other when they cannot trust each other?

[Gomess]

You don't need to trust someone to cut a deal with them.

Check Hell's thermometer, because I'm with Dom here.

[Sparky Prime]

You don't need to trust someone to cut a deal with them.

I don't agree. There needs to be some level of trust there, as I've pointed out on the previous page.

[BWprowl]

Regardless of Spike's motives or who bought what, this was just piss poor writing. You guys can defend it all you like, but it just reads like a lazy deus ex machina (Swindle) was thrown in to end the story. And yes, 06, it does matter (to me) to lay the groundwork for a major plot twist that's designed to end the alliance with the humans, make Spike a bad guy, persuade the Autobots to leave Earth, and end the ongoing. By tossing in something out of left field, the ending feels artificial and unsatisfying.

One place I think we’re getting stuck (or I am, with you, in this case) is the way your problem with the story seems to be that they ‘made Spike a bad guy’ when at the end of ‘Police Action’, I still don’t see him as a ‘bad guy’. I see him as a cocky jerk, yes. A poor leader who made some bad decisions and now has the Autobots after his ass because of it, but hardly a ‘bad guy’. Honestly, that’s something I’ve enjoyed about Costa’s whole arc, that there’ve been less clearly-defined ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ and more just multiple sides among the Transformers and Humans each with their own agenda, going about achieving them their own ways. Even some of the Decepticons come off as sympathetic at times (I fail to see how what the Predacons were doing with China in ‘International Incident’ was any different than what the Autobots were doing with America. The Combaticons may have been out of line, though mostly because they were following orders from a human dictator who was out of line according to our own standards). Spike represents a human viewpoint that prioritizes humans and wants to be prepared against Transformer threats via any means necessary, even if that means *temporarily* dealing with a member of that same species. There are pros and cons to his methods and intentions, but it hardly makes him an out-and-out villain, which is why I don’t see Swindle’s revelation in the final issue as a dues ex machine to turn Spike eeeeeevil so much as I see it as a piece of information that, when revealed, shakes up the status quo.

I think the issue we’re having with Sparky is just a difference in worldviews, honestly. He’s basically saying, “In my experience, there’s no way anyone in Spike’s situation would deal with Swindle” while we’re saying “In my experience, someone like Spike would totally deal with Swindle”. Or maybe more accurately those should start with “If I was in Spike’s situation…”. Anyway, it basically makes the whole thing irreconcilable, since it’s all grounded in our life experiences and how we see the world.

That said, Spike had no problem chatting with Prime on the last pages of AHM, and he knew even less about faction differences than he does now. Swindle wouldn’t be that much of a stretch, especially considering his altmode (remember in the AHM Coda Bumblebee story, where we hear that rumors are circulating among the soldiers that cars are ‘good robots’?).