TF Views

Sparky Prime wrote:

andersonh1 wrote:It's a work of fiction. A fantasy series based on a toyline. I don't see that there's any life lessons to be taken from it. It's pure escapism and entertainment, nothing more. If Willis is learning lessons from Beast Wars, I think he needs to find another source of inspiration.

I'd very much disagree. Being a work of fiction based on a toyline doesn't mean it can't also have theme's and morals to be learned... Look at an episode like "Transmutate" and tell me there isn't supposed to be some underlying lesson to be learned there. There's plenty of that in BW and I think that's what Willis is getting at.

I'm not saying it's not a great show. I love Beast Wars, and the writing is generally strong. But I'm not taking any life lessons away from it. Could it provoke some thought in the younger members of the audience? Possibly so. I was in my mid-to-late 20's when I first saw the show, and my moral compass was pretty much already formed. And as I said, I don't look to fiction for inspiration anyway.

And now, having read Willis' essay, I want to comment on various bits of it. Keep in mind that I've only recently even learned who the guy is, so I have no axe to grind here. It's just another opinion as far as I'm concerned.

And for the first time in 10 years, Transformers was suddenly a top-selling toyline and a top-rated (Emmy award-winning) cartoon. The Beast Wars toys were the third-most popular boys toyline of its time, behind Power Rangers and Star Wars. The syndicated cartoon consistently ranked first in its local timeslot among the target demographic. It resurrected the Transformers franchise and saved it from the abyss. Why?

Because it was allowed to be different.

Uh... not entirely. I think the toyline did well and became popular because the show was so well done. It was CGI, which was novel and new at the time, and it was well-written. That translated in part to greatly increased visiblity for the Transformers product and strong sales. It wasn't simply because the line was different from what came before, it's because the line was properly promoted.

And indeed he sings the praises of the show, but I think he put the cart before the horse here.

Beast Wars is why Transformers still exists.

I agree. Had it failed, I think that might have been all she wrote.

It pulled me back into Transformers after having left it,

Same here.

andersonh1 wrote:I'm not saying it's not a great show. I love Beast Wars, and the writing is generally strong. But I'm not taking any life lessons away from it. Could it provoke some thought in the younger members of the audience? Possibly so. I was in my mid-to-late 20's when I first saw the show, and my moral compass was pretty much already formed. And as I said, I don't look to fiction for inspiration anyway.

I don't see that it has to be younger members of the audience to pick up on the themes of episodes. Again to use "Transmutate" as an example, it has themes that really isn't limited to any one age group. And really, there are several themes in Beast Wars with a more mature audience in mind. I can understand you wouldn't necessarily look for life lessons in fiction, but that doesn't mean there isn't any there, or that those themes can't transcend age boundaries.

While on the subject, I wanted to go back to comment on this..

Dominic wrote:What irked me about Willis statement is that he was crediting the *characters* as educational, rather than the writers.

I'd say you're taking the comment to literally. Of course the writer's wrote it, but it's portrayed through the characters, hence why it's attributed to them rather than the writers.

Look at an episode like "Transmutate" and tell me there isn't supposed to be some underlying lesson to be learned there.

I do not think "Transmutate" is terribly instructive though.

Practically, the solution would be to kill the big dangerous thing. But, nobody needs to see the episode to get that. And, there is little in the episode to give moral guidance. It raises questions, yes. But, Marx makes no attempt to answer them.

It was "The Gathering" I liked.

You are still the only person I talk to regularly who says this. (Just sayin' is all.)

What I was saying with the "nothing good" remark is that once "Beast Wars" wrapped up the first time, it was pretty much over and done. For whatever reason, attempts to revive the property do not go well, while G1 has been relaunched successfully more than once.

Mode scanning? Meaning the method of getting a new form to transform into? G1 had method of scanning a vehicle form for a Transformer to transform into as well. That's not something that came from BW.

BW seemed to make it a bit easier, almost like power-gaming, though.

and no crappy comics, misguided attempts to canonize McDonalds toys in profile books, fanfic, terrible club-exclusive stories, or mind-scarring furry fanart can really detract from it.

Speak for yourself.

Possibly so. I was in my mid-to-late 20's when I first saw the show, and my moral compass was pretty much already formed.

My own moral compass has changed a few times over the years. But, it was mostly reality that did it.

Uh... not entirely. I think the toyline did well and became popular because the show was so well done.

The popularity of Cheetor, (one of the worst toys of the line), is evidence for this. Seriously, Cheetor was friggin' horrible. I searched for one for months because it was the last thing I needed from the first wave, and the turn around between waves was longer then. When I finally found Cheetor, (months after picking up those first few basics), it was more "lets just get this damned thing over with" than "hot diggity damn". And, the fact he was a show character played a rule in my purchase, and I was 18 at the time.

I don't see that it has to be younger members of the audience to pick up on the themes of episodes. Again to use "Transmutate" as an example, it has themes that really isn't limited to any one age group. And really, there are several themes in Beast Wars with a more mature audience in mind. I can understand you wouldn't necessarily look for life lessons in fiction, but that doesn't mean there isn't any there, or that those themes can't transcend age boundaries.

I think what Anderson is saying here is (similar to what I was saying) too many members of the audience act like BW is their *only* exposure to certain topics and ideas. It might be the first exposure with younger members. But, it should not be the only exposure.


Dom
-needs to read that "Ironhide" miniseries.

Dominic wrote:I do not think "Transmutate" is terribly instructive though.

Practically, the solution would be to kill the big dangerous thing. But, nobody needs to see the episode to get that. And, there is little in the episode to give moral guidance. It raises questions, yes. But, Marx makes no attempt to answer them.

While "Transmutate" doesn't answer all of the questions it raises, I have to say it most certainly is instructive. It still has themes of life being important, no matter what form it takes or even how dangerous it might be, for example. Ironically the tragedy occurs when those fighting to defend Transmutate come into conflict with each other. There is more to this episode than you give it credit Dom.

What I was saying with the "nothing good" remark is that once "Beast Wars" wrapped up the first time, it was pretty much over and done. For whatever reason, attempts to revive the property do not go well, while G1 has been relaunched successfully more than once.

It was a poor choice of words that didn't accurately represent your meaning. And again, I think the reason attempts to revisit BW haven't gone well owns up more to those attempts being sub par to the original. And I should point out, they've never tried to do a straight up reboot of BW like they have with G1.

BW seemed to make it a bit easier, almost like power-gaming, though.

I really don't see how BW was much different from G1 in this area... MTMTE shows a rather simple process of a sky spy satellite scanning vehicle forms and a beam of light from Teletraan 1 to give the Transformers new alternative forms. In BW, the process still requires an external system of DNA scanners (which has a limited range) from the stasis pods/ships in order to find animal forms, and a brilliant flash of light as the Transformer body acquires the new form.

I think what Anderson is saying here is (similar to what I was saying) too many members of the audience act like BW is their *only* exposure to certain topics and ideas. It might be the first exposure with younger members. But, it should not be the only exposure.

Well I'd agree BW wouldn't/shouldn't be the only exposure one has, but still, it doesn't make those topics/ideas any less relevant.

Dominic wrote:

and no crappy comics, misguided attempts to canonize McDonalds toys in profile books, fanfic, terrible club-exclusive stories, or mind-scarring furry fanart can really detract from it.

Speak for yourself.

I will. But it's like, is "Nosferatu" a less cool-looking movie because "Twilight" is around?

I'd go with Lost Boys.

I have to say it most certainly is instructive. It still has themes of life being important, no matter what form it takes or even how dangerous it might be,

But, if life is precious, there is arguably a moral case for killing the big (if not malicious) monster. The episode does not really address this decisively. (Granted, it is not reasonable to expect a 20-odd minute cartoon to do so. But, I am not going to argue that said cartoon is instructive.)

And again, I think the reason attempts to revisit BW haven't gone well owns up more to those attempts being sub par to the original. And I should point out, they've never tried to do a straight up reboot of BW like they have with G1.

Fair point.

I am pretty sure an attempt to fully reboot "Beast Wars" would cause such fandom drama that Hasbro would have to back down.


Dom
-and, yeah, those McDonalds toys now count.

What would be gained by rebooting Beast Wars? Unless some drastically new spin and direction could be put on the concept, I don't see the point.

True enough. But, the constant attempts to revive it are hindered in part by a slavish devotion to the original.

Of course, given how the last attempted revival went, Hasbro might be content to just leave it alone for a bit.


Dom
-UT toyhacks are due in about 5 years.....

Dominic wrote:True enough. But, the constant attempts to revive it are hindered in part by a slavish devotion to the original.

Of course, given how the last attempted revival went, Hasbro might be content to just leave it alone for a bit.

I thought "The Gathering" did a nice job of setting up a new status quo and putting all the non-show Beast Wars characters on Earth in a way that could work around the TV series and tell some new stories with the new characters. I think "The Ascending", while not as bad as it's often made out to be, took a wrong turn by jumping back into a big, epic, Unicron-gobbling-Cybertron-up type of story. IDW should have continued by sticking with the two groups still stranded on Earth and worked on small plots while developing the various characters.

In short, I think IDW and Furman should have stuck with the new status quo and gone small rather than shooting for the cosmic storyline and missing the mark.