TF Views

The thing is that the Hall of Fame is suppsoed to be about characters, not names. I am pretty sure "Inferno" has been used more as a name than "Jetfire". But, (rightly), nobody is nominating Inferno.

Assuming that Skyfire is an alias of Jetfire, (and once could argue either way on this point):

-G1: Skyfire/Jetfire were semi-recognizable, and inexplicably popular among fans only. Most people just call him that "guy from Robotech". Hardly "hall of fame" material. (For simplicities sake, we will count Neo-G1 iterations as the same character.) Wild variations, (beyond naming conventions), in the cartoon and comic.
-RiD: A forgettable non-show Decepticon trooper.
-Unicron Trilogy: Different function and personality than G1. Portrayed wildly differently between cartoon and comic.
-Animated: New character, old name. Nobody cares.
-movie: I would argue that this is a different character from any previous iteration.


Soundwave is dated. You know because you threw yourself into the fandom. But, not everybody who becomes a fan gets into the history of the franchise. And, casual fans almost never do. "Machine Wars" Soundwave is forgettable, as is the Spy Changer car. (Same character, yes. But, really?) BW Soundwave is probably a different character than G1, but the sourcebook provides reasonable basis to argue either way.) Movie Soundwave is "close enough" to G1. Animated, less so.


Dom
-still needs Jetfire parts to make SpaceWarp.

I'm defining "Iconic" differently. Just because a character was in G1 doesn't make it Iconic. However, there were some characters in G1 that were so iconic that there has been a "a" character with their name in almost every iteration since G1. Most people remember the "tape player one" almost as much as they remember "the one that turns into the truck". That's pretty iconic. Of course, I'm referring to your typical soccer mom who doesn't remember character names and also wouldn't know the difference between Darth Vader and Spock, but I think my point is valid. There were certain characters there that were so memorable that there's been one in almost every version since. So my list justifications:

Shockwave. Ok, self indulgent and I'll freely admit it. In fact whenever I say "Shockwave" to non fans, they invariably ask me "Was that the little tape player one?"

Grimlock. I think everyone has this in mind when they think of robot dinosaurs.

Blackarachnia. I know this might seem a little bit from left field, but she had 2 forms in BW, made it to BM, then made it to Universe 1.0 in the form of Crystal widow (bit of a stretch I know) and even made it into Animated. If Grimlock is what people think of when they think "robot dinosaur" then Blackarachnia is what they think when they think "robot spider".

Jetfire. Yeah, ok, he was Robotech guy. But he stood out enough back then that there's been one in most TF incarnations since.

Soundwave. There's been one in every TF version except 3: RID, Armada and Energon. And by virtue of the Cybertron version, I could argue that there was one for those last two and that he just didn't show up until Cybertron.

Dominic wrote:Re: Dinobot and Waspinator. No. Dammit no. Just...NO! Trust the TF Wiki crew to do the most self-indulgent thing possible at any given moment. Really, Animated Wreck-gar?

While I'll agree that Wreck-Gar is pure self-indulgence, as is Waspinator, I think there's a case to be made for Dinobot. He has quite an impact on the events of Beast Wars, and was pretty memorable. I daresay he's the Soundwave of Beast Wars, as in, people who watched a little G1 going up remember "the tape player guy", while people who watched BW will often remember "the raptor who kept changing sides". Hell, Dinobot was my second choice for a BW character on my list, but I went with Primal since I figured he was more important to the overall timeline. Dinobot's definitely as, if not more, iconic though.

Shockwave. Ok, self indulgent and I'll freely admit it. In fact whenever I say "Shockwave" to non fans, they invariably ask me "Was that the little tape player one?"

See Dom, this is what we're talking about with Soundwave. Everybody and their mother remembers this guy. He's the definition of Iconic Transformer.

Blackarachnia. I know this might seem a little bit from left field, but she had 2 forms in BW, made it to BM, then made it to Universe 1.0 in the form of Crystal widow (bit of a stretch I know)

Actually, while Crystal Widow was a separate character, Blackarachnia herself was in fact in Universe 1.0. Check it!

Just thought I would point out that we are all talking about G1 Devestator. (Yeah, we know that. But, it might not be a bad idea for JT to specify it when he sends in the list, as Devastator is a real contender here.)

I admit to a visceral bias against the Beast years. But, Blackarachnia has zero recognition outside the fandom. Dinobot I could actually get behind, if not as part of the top 5.

As much as it pains me to say it, Unicron could credibly go on the list. (Remember, this is not about who we like. It is about important/recognizable characters. Or, at least it should be.) I hate Unicron. I hate the damned idea. I wish Furman had never redefined him as a god. I curse the trend towards childish magical thinking that makes the character even more resonant now than in '86. But, dammit, Scourge is right on that one. (Hell, I have both mass released Unicron toys.)


Points of information:
-I think Crystal Widow might have been intended to be Blackarachnia from an alternate timeline. Do not quote me on that though.

-Neither Soundwave's missiles nor Buzzsaw's guns stored in tape deck mode.

Of course, I'm referring to your typical soccer mom who doesn't remember character names and also wouldn't know the difference between Darth Vader and Spock, but I think my point is valid. There were certain characters there that were so memorable that there's been one in almost every version since. So my list justifications:

Soccer moms who are roughly our age, yes. Nobody born after '95, (if not a bit earlier), is going to remember Soundwave though. The soccer moms might remember Soundwave. But, the kids, (who give the moms the title of "mom"(, likely know Soundwave as an old dated character (ala Snively Whiplash) rather than "that kewl guy who did that kewl stuff".

Soundwave is a favorite of mine. I like the character in later comics. And, Soundwave has *huge* sentimental appeal for me. Soundwave was one of the first large TFs I got, and is one of a small number of TFs to fall into my first collecting sub-catergory, characters with pets. But, the character is dated and is limited to GeeWun appeal. (And, this list is not just about G1.)

I am not sure if name re-uses make a *character* iconic as far as Jetfire goes. (Does anybody care about the guy from RiD?)

Dom
-really finds himself pulling for Barricade actually.

Son of a bitch, I totally forgot all about the missiles. I was giving Buzzsaw credit for being his own dude, so wasn't counting his parts.

Now where did my Soundwave's missiles go?

andersonh1 wrote:Nice to be included. I assume you make sure that Hasbro knows we're out there.

I made sure they gave us the materials we needed. They thought they already had and came to us looking for an update on the progress, that's when I told them we hadn't been given the initial materials to begin with.

I'm thinking about doing a bulk email tomorrow to our entire membership asking them to vote, but am not entirely sure.

Shockwave wrote:Awesome! Anderson, did you mean that Hasbro knows we're "out there"?

Dagnabit, that made me chuckle.

Dominic wrote:I was not going to be the one who turned this into a discussion thread. Way to go JT.

If we had more forumites active all the time, I would have splintered discussion off into a different thread, but since we're still a small-fry site, it seems like discussion is a good way to keep interest going in the thread, to keep it at the top of people's attention. I don't want to go being a dick to every person's choices though either Dommo, that drives folks away. Pick your battles.

I can see BB being on the list. The character was iconic in G1, is now a main character and is likely to remain one. 2, if not 3, generations of fand recognize the character. Every time G1 has been a presence, ('84-90, '94, '02-'04, '05-current), BB has been a presence, and often a major one. But, I am sick to death of BB. I reserve the right to vote against the character, regardless of how unrealistic it is to assume that vote will be heard or heeded.

I firmly blame the G1 cartoon and then Michael Bay's total lack of understanding of TF for his importance.

Yes, the toy sucks. But, as I said, I am trying to vote beyond self-indulgence and personal preference.

Different just to be different isn't good enough, there should be a foundation of sense to go along with it.

I really like Demolishor, both in terms of character and toy. But, I am not voting for him any more than I would vote for Sunstreaker on the basis of "All Hail Megatron" and an excellent toy from a few years ago. Metroplex is a favorite of mine, despite the toy committing just about every sin I rail against. I like the Star Saber Minicons. But, they are not iconic beyond the series they were released in.

I like Demolishor. I like the Star Saber minicons, but I lost respect for them when they were in Hot Shot's hands, and even more when they morphed into the Energon Saber that Kicker got to use.

Hotshot has only had one good toy, (aside from a few good PVC figures here and there), during "Cybertron". But, the character was prominent during the Unicron Trilogy and was worthy of inclusion in the 25A line. (You are right in saying the 25A figure is worse than the original "Armada" figure though.) People who got into the hobby 10 less than 10 years ago will have the same associations with Hotshot as GeeWunners have with BB.

A toy that had its Japanese release made into a different character, Exillion. And the AEC isn't really holding water in the fandom anymore, new fans don't know it at all, and its cache with fans from the last 10 years is well below the movie line. I think you're writing too much script here, making more out of it than is really there.

There is more to TF than what came out before '91. A character hall of fame should focus on more than the first few years of a franchise.

Optimus Prime, Megatron, and Starscream have been central in all American versions of Transformers that weren't Beast-centric, not just G1. They have G1 origins, but they carry on because of how important they remain. Hot Shot cannot make anywhere near such a claim. TF:A seems to be a good reflection of how this works, you get Arcee, you get Shockwave, you get Blackarachnia, but you don't see Sideburn or X-Brawn, you don't see guys from the Unicron trilogy. It's about what resonates throughout Transformersdom. Optimus Primal used to be a good reflection of this, the character was known quite well for a while, but has since lost traction with a shift in media. It doesn't mean he's not still a great character and important to his section of the franchise, but is he iconic? That's a question that voters will feel on their own.

Soundwave: A character so anachronistic and out dated...... Really? You call out BB and Hotshot for having limited appeal and then you choose a character notable for epitomizing GeeWun.

Which only serves to make him all the more iconic, he's a tape deck that launches cassette minions and people STILL remember him for that and still accept him as shades of that concept. He's totally outdated and yet his role and personality and interactions with minions carries on well beyond the microcassette concept itself.

Mirage: I can see this one. But, he was not the most iconic Autobots.

True, but I always found his form to be different from the others and his role different from the standard "shoot lasers at that guy!" troops.

Wheeljack: Ditto. Unless somebody wants to count every appearance of Wheeljack, (in the US, UK and Japan), I am still going with Prowl.

Wheeljack is a character I think is iconic because he's always had a job specialty and his vehicle and bot look has been totally unique. He's fallen by the wayside, but those who know him still feel like he should be there, and that I think is a sign of resonance.

Devastator: And, you call out Hotshot for having a bad toy?

Bite me, Dev is cool. Hot Shot looks like childish garbage, Dev may be a mess but he looks cool and the very notion of what he becomes is menacing in concept.

-really tried to come up with worthy characters from the beast era.

Yeah, so did I, but I just couldn't think of characters that have the same weight as those G1 names Hasbro came up with. Maybe once the Hall of Fame has a few more years under its belt, Dinobot and Primal and Beast Megs and Blackarachnia and Waspinator will fit in, but right now for me they didn't.

I really think Cheetor will carry the beast era if any character will.

I think Cheetor will only resonate with fans who still think about the series even today, but for Beast-era fans who moved on with the times he's not a big standout anymore. Look at my list in the paragraph above, it never once came to my mind. Neither did Tarantulas, and he really should have considering his machinations and role in the bigger picture.

Onslaught Six wrote:2. Shockwave. Unquestionably so! Shockwave is 'unique,' and he shows that TFs don't have to be the same as all the other ones. It'd be one thing if he only had one eye, or a gunhand, but this dude has both!
3. Jetfire--all incarnations. This is a guy who has played a pretty significant role in every continuity he's shown up in. In G1, he was the Autobots' only space travel source before Omega Supreme showed up. In Armada, he combined with Optimus Prime--I don't think anyone who owned Prime didn't own Jetfire, eventually. And in the Movie, he was one of the oldest TFs in the universe, and eventually combined with Prime to fight the Fallen. Like Armada, I don't think anyone who owned ROTF Prime didn't get Jetfire too.

So funny. I thought about Shockwave, and realized I like Shockwave more for the ancillary versions like in Energon and Alternators than the core character from G1.

As for Jetfire, I can't believe I didn't think of him, that is a little shocking, Jetfire defined "big deal Transformers" when I was a kid, and has stuck ever since. Maybe the movie character drove it out of me. I own ROTF Prime and not Jetfire, btw. But Jetpants Armada was a must.

BWprowl wrote:Just swung by TFwiki's Hall of Fame auditions page to see what their suggestions looked like. Dinobot, Waspinator, and Animated Wreck-Gar are getting a *lot* of votes, though Shockwave and Soundwave aren't doing too bad either. I'm also amused at the various people who are voting for Drift, presumably out of spite.

Ouch, damn you spite! ... Wait. I really hope those votes are from spite.

Shockwave wrote:5. Soundwave (there's been a toy named Soundwave in almost every version of TF)

The beast-era mutant bat alligator doesn't count.

Dom wrote:Just thought I would point out that we are all talking about G1 Devestator. (Yeah, we know that. But, it might not be a bad idea for JT to specify it when he sends in the list, as Devastator is a real contender here.)

I didn't really think anybody thought we were talking about movie Devastator, I didn't really think we needed to clarify but I'll take it under consideration.

-Neither Soundwave's missiles nor Buzzsaw's guns stored in tape deck mode.

And both were ancillary, Soundwave still had a gun and a shoulder-mounted weapon without pointy vac-metalized junk sticking out the front, Buzzsaw still turned into a robot-bird without his junk. They are secondary accessories.


BTW, I don't understand this heart-on for M1 Barricade. The guy stands out in the film not because of who he is, but because he's the only non-Megatron Decepticon to interact with other characters or even speak.

I don't want to go being a dick to every person's choices though either Dommo, that drives folks away. Pick your battles.

Says the guy who called me out on his second post.

I firmly blame the G1 cartoon and then Michael Bay's total lack of understanding of TF for his importance.

Now, you have me defending Bay. How does Bay "not get" TF? You blame Bay's ignorance and a cartoon that, while not by any means great or even good, was important to the franchise in teh same sentence? Elaborate.

Different just to be different isn't good enough, there should be a foundation of sense to go along with it.

It is not being different to be different. It is a vote for a character that looks to have some sticking power. AEC did have an impact on the franchise and the fandom. Minicons have been in nearly every primary line, (if only as recolors) since '02. (The only two exceptions being Alternators and the re-issues.)

Bite me, Dev is cool. Hot Shot looks like childish garbage, Dev may be a mess but he looks cool and the very notion of what he becomes is menacing in concept.

Hotshot has more fiddle value than Devastator. Hotshot's design is ambitious is badly executed. Devastator is just badly designed.


I do see your point about Cheetor. But, Hasbro has done more to keep that character around than it has Primal. I think branding will carry this one more than character.


Shockwave is so inconsistently portrayed in various media that it is touch to say the character is iconic so much as the name is. Even G1 Shockwave is arguably two guys.

Wheeljack is a character I think is iconic because he's always had a job specialty and his vehicle and bot look has been totally unique. He's fallen by the wayside, but those who know him still feel like he should be there, and that I think is a sign of resonance.

My problem with Wheeljack and Mirage is not that they were unimportant or that I dislike them. (Both are actually favorites of mine actually.) It is that I jsut think Prowl was a wee bit more iconic and important. I actually revised my answer on that choice while typing it, at one point putting Mirage and Prowl in the same place. I can see any of them getting the nod, if not winning against guys like Grimlock or Soundwave.

There likely is a count of how many appearances the different characters have, but I do not feel like researching it and will just guess Prowl.

The beast-era mutant bat alligator doesn't count.

Like it or not, the "Beast Wars Sourcebook" gives grounds to say otherwise. Yes, the character described there is like something out of a bad fanfic written by an 8 years old. But...a reasonable person might conclude that the BW mutant is in fact G1 Soundwave. You do not have to like it. But, you must not deny it out of hand. The first time I read the entry, (while fipping through the book in the comic store and wondering why the hell I bothered with comics), my first impression was that it was Soundwave. I reread it later, and have been unsure. Given the tone and quality of the book, I would not rule out Furman or Yee doing the worst possible thing there.

Even if one discounts Buzzsaw, (which reasonable people can disagree on), Soundwave's missiles are Soundwave's missiles. It does not matter that they are not used in his alternate mode or that the robot "looks okay" without them. They are parts for one mode with no place in the other. His parts do not integrate.

As for the character, Soundwave has appeared and done less than other characters one could name easily. Soundwave is not as important as GeeWunners play him up to be.


Barricade did get a fair amount of characterization. He is also visually and conceptualy distinctive, with built-in iconograpy by virtue of being a cop car.


Dom
-still betting on Grimlock or Soundwave.

JediTricks wrote:Optimus Prime, Megatron, and Starscream have been central in all American versions of Transformers that weren't Beast-centric, not just G1. They have G1 origins, but they carry on because of how important they remain. Hot Shot cannot make anywhere near such a claim. TF:A seems to be a good reflection of how this works, you get Arcee, you get Shockwave, you get Blackarachnia, but you don't see Sideburn or X-Brawn, you don't see guys from the Unicron trilogy. It's about what resonates throughout Transformersdom. Optimus Primal used to be a good reflection of this, the character was known quite well for a while, but has since lost traction with a shift in media. It doesn't mean he's not still a great character and important to his section of the franchise, but is he iconic? That's a question that voters will feel on their own.

Actually, Hot Shot was on Team Chaar, and he was going to be the guy who became Animated Bumblebee. Frankly, I'm sort of surprised that Movie Bumblebee didn't end up being Hot Shot to begin with. (Imagine, his only words in the first film: "JaAm!")

Mirage: I can see this one. But, he was not the most iconic Autobots.

True, but I always found his form to be different from the others and his role different from the standard "shoot lasers at that guy!" troops.

Nobody was a "shoot lasers at that guy!" troop. Budiansky made sure of that.

So funny. I thought about Shockwave, and realized I like Shockwave more for the ancillary versions like in Energon and Alternators than the core character from G1.

Ah! But even so, those are iterations of Shockwave. And that's part of the point, I think.

BTW, I don't understand this heart-on for M1 Barricade. The guy stands out in the film not because of who he is, but because he's the only non-Megatron Decepticon to interact with other characters or even speak.

He's also the only one with a regular vehicle mode, as opposed to a tank or helicopter. In fact, the only other Decepticon in ROTF to do so (Sideways) was widely rumoured to be Barricade before the rest of him was revealed. (Incidentally, we've never gotten any confirmation that he wasn't 'supposed' to be Barricade to begin with.)

Dom wrote:Yes, the character described there is like something out of a bad fanfic written by an 8 years old.

What do you expect from Yee and Furman? (BOOSH!)

Character profiles aside, most of the TFs ended up as simple "point and shoot" troops. But, yeah, Budiansky definitely tried to keep that from happening.


Dom