The Oracle's Plan

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
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Mako Crab
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by Mako Crab »

SynjoDeonecros wrote:
Dominic wrote:Do you have a link re: DNA being in fossils?
Synjo
- Wonders if you have actually seen any of the franchises we're discussing, here...
Tactful as always. You had a good post until you tossed out that little barb. No need to be lobbing insults is there?

Anyway, as to this whole "The receptive spark," vs. "A receptive spark," it's "A receptive spark." Check it yourself at 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFgG7PCuBuA

Here's a theory: in the final episode Cheetor mentioned that Megatron was part of the Oracle's grand scheme too. Maybe what the Oracle really needed was the absense of the planetwide population in order to orchestrate its own reformatting. It's easier to steer the players in the desired direction when there are no governing bodies or societies to interfere. Imagine if Primal had attempted to reformat the entire planet into its technorganic state if the population was still alive and on its feet. He would've been locked up and carted off to Torqulon for psychiatric help. Barring that, he would've had to face off against his own people. Allowing Megatron to eradicate the populace was beneficial to the Oracle.
SynjoDeonecros
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Mako Crab wrote:
SynjoDeonecros wrote:
Dominic wrote:Do you have a link re: DNA being in fossils?
Synjo
- Wonders if you have actually seen any of the franchises we're discussing, here...
Tactful as always. You had a good post until you tossed out that little barb. No need to be lobbing insults is there?

Anyway, as to this whole "The receptive spark," vs. "A receptive spark," it's "A receptive spark." Check it yourself at 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFgG7PCuBuA

Here's a theory: in the final episode Cheetor mentioned that Megatron was part of the Oracle's grand scheme too. Maybe what the Oracle really needed was the absense of the planetwide population in order to orchestrate its own reformatting. It's easier to steer the players in the desired direction when there are no governing bodies or societies to interfere. Imagine if Primal had attempted to reformat the entire planet into its technorganic state if the population was still alive and on its feet. He would've been locked up and carted off to Torqulon for psychiatric help. Barring that, he would've had to face off against his own people. Allowing Megatron to eradicate the populace was beneficial to the Oracle.
Just getting him back for the 'closeted greenie" barb he gave me on the "Thoughts on Beast Era" thread. Plus, it's a legitimate query after he conveniently forgot that the DNA scanners first showed up in Beast Wars, too far into the continuity's future for G1 to know about them, before using it to bash on the question of why the Oracle needed the Maximals' DNA to do the reformatting when Nightscream clearly showed it had all it needed (sans Optimus and Megs) to make the attempt.

With the spark theory, I can see your point, there; it helps explain Megatron's actions, but at the same time, it makes me wonder if the Oracle was the source of Megatron's "technological perfection" shtick; it certainly "pushed" Optimus into doing what it wanted him to do, with his visions, so it's not at all unbelievable to assume it pushed Megs into his actions by giving him his irrational and uncharacteristic aversion to free will and organics.
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Dominic
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by Dominic »

The Oracle being a callous god certainly makes sense.

Actually, the real reason DNA scanners were not mentioned in G1 is that it was not kewl to mention them in the 80s, but in the 90s it was all kinds of kewl.

In-context, the fact that DNA scanners were not needed to scan new forms, (including those used for Pretenders), only makes it stanger that DNA scanning was a big deal in the Beast Era. One would think that just having a basic mechanical template for a new form would be enough.

The idea of an evolutionary brickwall is not new. Think of the cool looking, if not terribly practical, animals that went extinct early on. (Seriously, check out old style "not-quite" elephants.) Nightscream's batform may have been based on something similar.


Dom
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Onslaught Six
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Are we ever given any indication that the TFs can purge their new altmodes? Ever?

Sure--more recent media like the live action movies and Animated, etc. show that *those* Transformers can...but we're never shown that the BW-era TFs can, and in fact, in no franchise up until that point has a TF ever actually *rescanned* their altmode and they get a new one just like that. Every time somebody gets a new body, it's always a long and arduous process, and usually they have to die or something for it to happen. Hell, even throughout the Marvel G1 comics, guys *are* killed and rebuilt 'in the exact same body they had before!' So we're never shown anything that says this is commonplace or even possible.

Sure, it makes sense that they'd be able to do that, but we're still never given any indication that it's possible--and *that's* the key.
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Dominic
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by Dominic »

Good point. If it was easy to discard modes, then it is a good bet Tasmania Kid would have in BWII. (Yes, I know how dubious that show is as a source.)

In G1, guys getting rebuilt more or less the same may have been a querstion of saving on the cost of designing a new body, both for Hasbro and the Autobots.

Dom
SynjoDeonecros
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

Dominic wrote:The Oracle being a callous god certainly makes sense.

Actually, the real reason DNA scanners were not mentioned in G1 is that it was not kewl to mention them in the 80s, but in the 90s it was all kinds of kewl.

In-context, the fact that DNA scanners were not needed to scan new forms, (including those used for Pretenders), only makes it stanger that DNA scanning was a big deal in the Beast Era. One would think that just having a basic mechanical template for a new form would be enough.

The idea of an evolutionary brickwall is not new. Think of the cool looking, if not terribly practical, animals that went extinct early on. (Seriously, check out old style "not-quite" elephants.) Nightscream's batform may have been based on something similar.


Dom
-blames "Jurassic Park" for making DNA kewl.
...Okay, now I AM convinced you've never watched an episode of G1, Beast Wars, or Beast Machines in your life; Beast Wars established that DNA scanners were developed during the Great Peace, AFTER the end of the Great War and G1. So they didn't mention the device, because it wasn't "cool" to mention them, they didn't mention it because THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT, AT THE TIME. That, and Pretender technology - being the closest G1 equivalent to it - was just a robot with a normal mechanical alt mode wearing a SHELL of organic material as an extra disguise, so they wouldn't be scanning DNA, because the organics was a shell they wore and not integrated into their systems. It's the difference between wearing a suit of armor, and having cybernetics implanted into your body directly.

And evolutionary dead ends isn't scientific or official, or even real; Check out this forum discussion on SFN for a good explanation of how evolution works, and how "evolutionary brick walls" are scientifically crap.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by andersonh1 »

Onslaught Six wrote:Are we ever given any indication that the TFs can purge their new altmodes? Ever?
Why could they adopt them but not discard them? That wouldn't make any sense.

The Maximals are shown using the CR chambers to change form in the first episode of Beast Wars, in conjunction with the aerial DNA scanners. Later on that scanners are used with the stasis pods as seen in "The Spark" and the episode where Silverbolt and Quickstrike first show up. The ability to alter form is not internal at that point. It requires an external mechanical procedure. There's no reason the same procedure that altered a mechanical being into a synthetic beast couldn't then alter that same beast back into something more mechanical. If the modification is possible one way, it should be possible to go back the other direction.

Now it may be the case that not all of the organic molecules can be removed once the re-conversion has taken place. This may be what Megatron's problem was in Beast Machines. Even if he went into a CR chamber and converted out of the dragon form into some vehicle, traces of organic material would remain. And he couldn't stand the idea. Hence his continuing attempts to simply purge his existing body of all organic 'contamination'.
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andersonh1
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Mako Crab wrote:Here's a theory: in the final episode Cheetor mentioned that Megatron was part of the Oracle's grand scheme too. Maybe what the Oracle really needed was the absense of the planetwide population in order to orchestrate its own reformatting. It's easier to steer the players in the desired direction when there are no governing bodies or societies to interfere. Imagine if Primal had attempted to reformat the entire planet into its technorganic state if the population was still alive and on its feet. He would've been locked up and carted off to Torqulon for psychiatric help. Barring that, he would've had to face off against his own people. Allowing Megatron to eradicate the populace was beneficial to the Oracle.
I agree, and I also think that a part of the plan involved getting every last individual on Cybertron into that green goo for one big mass conversion, something that only happened because Megatron had attempted to fuse all of the sparks with his own.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

andersonh1 wrote:
Onslaught Six wrote:Are we ever given any indication that the TFs can purge their new altmodes? Ever?
Why could they adopt them but not discard them? That wouldn't make any sense.

The Maximals are shown using the CR chambers to change form in the first episode of Beast Wars, in conjunction with the aerial DNA scanners. Later on that scanners are used with the stasis pods as seen in "The Spark" and the episode where Silverbolt and Quickstrike first show up. The ability to alter form is not internal at that point. It requires an external mechanical procedure. There's no reason the same procedure that altered a mechanical being into a synthetic beast couldn't then alter that same beast back into something more mechanical. If the modification is possible one way, it should be possible to go back the other direction.

Now it may be the case that not all of the organic molecules can be removed once the re-conversion has taken place. This may be what Megatron's problem was in Beast Machines. Even if he went into a CR chamber and converted out of the dragon form into some vehicle, traces of organic material would remain. And he couldn't stand the idea. Hence his continuing attempts to simply purge his existing body of all organic 'contamination'.
That's somewhat what I'm thinking; they would've had to have some way of discarding their organic modes, after every expedition - it wouldn't make sense if they didn't, since they visited worlds that may not have had flora or fauna compatible with the flora or fauna of the previous world the visited. Botanica is actually a great argument for that; her crew visited and adopted the forms from a planet full of sentient plantlife; visiting such a planet after visiting Planet Beest while still having the organic animal form from the latter would be disastrous. As I said, the only way i can see any DNA form purging mechanism available on Cybertron not working for Megatron would be if, as you said, the purging wasn't perfect and complete, or the Transmetal 2 body he had was so far removed from the typical "season 1" beast modes that Rhinox has and would've been typical for expedition crews at the time, that the purging mechanism just couldn't handle trying to remove it.

On the other hand, I must requestion why the Oracle decided to go with such a complicated plan to make Cybertron technorganic, when it's clear the Transformers were already heading in that direction, on their own; the advent and widespread use - and eventual internalization - of the DNA scanners seems to indicate the population was bucking their aversion to "fleshlings", and were starting to put deeper investigation into organic life and how it could benefit them. That's the main problem I have with the Oracle's plan; it's pretty much forcing the populace to "evolve" (and yes, I know that's not how evolution works, but just go with it) into the technorganic beings they are ALREADY becoming, on their own. Maybe it got impatient with the slow process upon which it was moving? How would the Transformers world be like, if the Oracle took a look at its plan, realized "the populace is already doing my work, for me, and this would be way too inefficient and risky to achieve the same result", and scrapped it in favor for letting the DNA scanner development continue?
Last edited by SynjoDeonecros on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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SynjoDeonecros wrote:As I said, the only way i can see any DNA form purging mechanism available on Cybertron not working for Megatron would be if, as you said, the purging wasn't perfect and complete, or the Transmetal 2 body he had was so far removed from the typical "season 1" beast modes that Rhinox has and would've been typical for expedition crews at the time, that the purging mechanism just couldn't handle trying to remove it.
That could be it. All the Transmetal and Transmetal 2 conversions might have taken his form beyond what the normal techniques could deal with. That's entirely possible, and certainly sounds plausible.
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