TF Views

Mako Crab wrote:A fair review, andersonh. You detailed most of my problems with the story and characters. Too much in too little space is what it boils down to. Beast Wars (the cartoon) worked because they gradually worked new characters into the setting one or two at a time and developed their guys. Beast Wars (the comic) avalanches wave upon wave of paper-thin characters on top of us all at once with little-or-no introduction for most of them and no reason to care who they are.

Just to put that in context, it's almost the opposite of the approach taken by Furman in the G1 comics at the time. G1 went with a slow burn storyline, and I wonder if complaints about the pacing of that series informed the approach taken to Beast Wars.

For what it's worth, I think the first mini-series worked very well, and I have no complaints about the pacing or the amount of characters used. It's The Ascending that tries to do to much too quickly. I enjoyed it anyway, but I'd have preferred a more leisurely and detailed pace.

It also doesn't help that it was yet another of Simon's famous Unicron epics, which came at a time when I felt we were being overloaded with Unicron.

That's probably true of me as well. To be fair, the inclusion of Unicron was probably inevitable given that Shockaract was chosen as the villain of the story, and Unicron only indirectly affects most of the story. But yeah, I think we've seen enough of him for awhile.

Onslaught Six wrote:And just as one example of a cartoon that makes it to Above Average: Samurai Jack.

I tried watching that show a few times but I just couldn't stand it. I honestly thought they were joking with the commercials that said it had won an Emmy (granted, I didn't think cartoons even got awards at the time but still). At any rate, I wouldn't call Samurai Jack an above average cartoon. I have to agree with BWprowl said earlier, Beast Wars truely was above average.

Dominic wrote:IDW's BW comics had nothing to say, and they said this nothing loudly.

The Ascending I might agree with on that point, but not The Gathering.

andersonh1 wrote:I missed "The Ascending" when it came out, but I ran across it in trade paperback form at Books a Million on Saturday. So I sat down and read the thing. After hearing Dom and others trash it, I was prepared for it to be terrible, but surprisingly it wasn't that bad. Rather enjoyable actually, if way too rushed.

I'd have to agree with your points. Like you, I didn't think the story was as bad as Dom and others, but certainly it was overly rushed. They really should have taken a more leisurely pace so that they could develop characters and flesh out the story more. Personally, I felt the 'epic' plot of The Ascending especially would have been best left being slowly developed over time, possibly only being hinted at over several different mini-series somewhat like IDW was doing with the "-tion" stories until it finally all came together at the end.

Sparky Prime wrote:I tried watching that show a few times but I just couldn't stand it. I honestly thought they were joking with the commercials that said it had won an Emmy (granted, I didn't think cartoons even got awards at the time but still). At any rate, I wouldn't call Samurai Jack an above average cartoon. I have to agree with BWprowl said earlier, Beast Wars truely was above average.

What, 'really?' Samurai Jack was awesome for so many reasons. It was an epic samurai movie split up into 22-minute blocks.

Also, 'samurai fighting robots.' What more do you want, man?!

Incidentally, I've been considering sending in an issue of The Ascending to Linkara on ThatGuyWithTheGlasses.com. He reviews bad comics. I'd love to see what he says about it.

Onslaught Six wrote:What, 'really?' Samurai Jack was awesome for so many reasons. It was an epic samurai movie split up into 22-minute blocks.

Also, 'samurai fighting robots.' What more do you want, man?!

I've never particularly cared for the style of animation used in Samurai Jack first of all. And the story was too much of a hodgepodge of various elements for my liking. Aliens, robots, magic, demons, mafia... It was just way too many elements that didn't make sense for a samurai story IMO, even if he was a samurai transported to the future. And then there is that the series was extremely episodic, every episode was practically like hitting the rest button so it didn't really feel like it went anywhere. So yeah, there was a lot about it that just didn't appeal to me.

It's actually only *recently* that I've seen any episodes of Samurai Jack. When it first came out, I was, for whatever reason, under the mistaken impression that it was supposed to be a comedic series, I so I immediately shunned it when I watched a bit and observed that it was 'not funny'.

Now, having actually seen it, I'll concede that it seems like a pretty good show. Some of it still smacks of intelligence-insulting cartoon writing (make it MORE obvious that that chick was Aku, why don't you?), but the voice acting's rock solid, the plot doesn't cram too much into each block, and the style is pretty slick (they do that No Outlines schtick. I LOVE that!). Music's cool too. Might sit down and check the whole thing out one a' these days. How long is it, anyhow?

The writing of BW may only be a bit above other shows (especially stuff like Other Voices, which is just iffy all around), but the animation and directing push it pretty far. Yeah, the CGI looks like Wii Grafix, but the way the characters *move* is just...WORLDS better than the CGI we have in shows today. It's so subtle, and nuanced and, dare I say, realistic. When Cybertron has Scattorshot wiggling his arms up and down to denote surprise, and BW actually has characters emoting, in individual ways, in reaction to things that happen, it makes you wonder if audiences years from now will wonder which came first (and Cybertron was animated by Gonzo, a company that's well-known for quality visuals). And the directing... they really get the most out of the voice actors, who actually come off like they're *acting*, instead of shouting shrill, cartoonish melodrama like, well, a lot of other cartoons. The whole thing just *works*.

I still like Bleach myself, but 75% of why I'm there is for the art. If you really wanna call me a bandwagon-jumping whore, y'know what I've been *really* digging lately? One Piece. That show rules.

BWprowl wrote:Might sit down and check the whole thing out one a' these days. How long is it, anyhow?

Four seasons of thirteen eps, so a good round 52 by my count.

The writing of BW may only be a bit above other shows (especially stuff like Other Voices, which is just iffy all around), but the animation and directing push it pretty far. Yeah, the CGI looks like Wii Grafix, but the way the characters *move* is just...WORLDS better than the CGI we have in shows today. It's so subtle, and nuanced and, dare I say, realistic. When Cybertron has Scattorshot wiggling his arms up and down to denote surprise, and BW actually has characters emoting, in individual ways, in reaction to things that happen, it makes you wonder if audiences years from now will wonder which came first (and Cybertron was animated by Gonzo, a company that's well-known for quality visuals). And the directing... they really get the most out of the voice actors, who actually come off like they're *acting*, instead of shouting shrill, cartoonish melodrama like, well, a lot of other cartoons. The whole thing just *works*.

What are you exactly comparing BW to, here? You bring up Cybertron, for example--but Cybertron 'sucked' and was below-par for even its own time. You can't try to use *that* as an example of an average cartoon, you have to use something contemporary. For example, Animated's writing was no better nor worse than Ben 10: Alien Force, a show that it aired alongside for the most part. To make a fair comparison, you need to compare BW to other action cartoons of the 90s era.

My point is that, yeah, BW has the characters emoting and it has capable voice acting. Uh, when did that kind of thing stop being *standard* and *expected* of shows? Why is BW instantly OMG AWESOME because it did...what every other cartoon in 1998 was doing? (And it has to be 1998, because BW didn't even get that good until Season 2.)

I still like Bleach myself, but 75% of why I'm there is for the art. If you really wanna call me a bandwagon-jumping whore, y'know what I've been *really* digging lately? One Piece. That show rules.

The One Piece bandwagon left years ago, you're just late.

I could not stand Samurai Jack. It was ugly to look at, and bland to watch. It had a sort of "we are so good we are not obligated to even try" feel to it.

The Ascending I might agree with on that point, but not The Gathering.

What exactly was being said with "The Gathering"?

BWprowl wrote:

The writing of BW may only be a bit above other shows (especially stuff like Other Voices, which is just iffy all around), but the animation and directing push it pretty far. Yeah, the CGI looks like Wii Grafix, but the way the characters *move* is just...WORLDS better than the CGI we have in shows today. It's so subtle, and nuanced and, dare I say, realistic. When Cybertron has Scattorshot wiggling his arms up and down to denote surprise, and BW actually has characters emoting, in individual ways, in reaction to things that happen, it makes you wonder if audiences years from now will wonder which came first (and Cybertron was animated by Gonzo, a company that's well-known for quality visuals). And the directing... they really get the most out of the voice actors, who actually come off like they're *acting*, instead of shouting shrill, cartoonish melodrama like, well, a lot of other cartoons. The whole thing just *works*.

I can agree that BW was above the average for the time, as I saw a good many 90s cartoons. But, the average was pretty low. Yeah, there was some good stuff, like "Batman: The Animated Series". But, this was also the decade that gave us "Street Sharks", "Gargoyles" (which Disney lacked the intellectual capital to handle correctly), "GI Joe Extreme", and "Exo Squad" (wow, a WWII parable where the good guys fight so stupidly I wind up rooting for the Nazi-proxies).

So, yeah, BW was good. And, much of what we had to compare it to was so much worse.

And, lets face it, fans tend to ignore the fact that seasons 2 and 3 had some really weak episodes.

Dom
-has not watched a cartoon regularly in years.

Dominic wrote:What exactly was being said with "The Gathering"?

The lost stasis pods of course, and as it was in the Beast Wars cartoon, how important those potential troops would be for either side.

But, this was also the decade that gave us "Street Sharks", "Gargoyles" (which Disney lacked the intellectual capital to handle correctly), "GI Joe Extreme", and "Exo Squad" (wow, a WWII parable where the good guys fight so stupidly I wind up rooting for the Nazi-proxies).

Gargoyles I have say I thought was very boring when it was originally on in the 90's, but I caught a few reruns last year, and I have to saw I appreciate it more now than when I was younger. Exo Squad though, I always thought that was an awesome cartoon. I just wish they hadn't left off with a cliff hanger...

And, lets face it, fans tend to ignore the fact that seasons 2 and 3 had some really weak episodes.

What weak episodes in seasons 2 and 3? In my view, Beast Wars only got better and better.

Season 3 definitely had some rough spots. 'Go With the Flow' comes to mind.

No matter how good a show is, it always has weak episodes. To pick an example, I'm a big fan of DS9. The show as a whole is really strong, but there are some flat-out dull or weak episodes in every season. The same thing is true of Beast Wars, in my view. The series as a whole is really strong, but it definitely had some sub-part episodes.