The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Money, violence, sex, computer graphics, scatalogical humor, racism, robots designed to be rednecks but given European accents, and maybe another sequel to the saga... what's not to love? TF m1, Revenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon and now Age of Extinction.
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onslaught86
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by onslaught86 »

I find that extremely debatable. AHM goes no where slowly and the holes in it are certainly much more than fringe.
Hmm. That strikes me more as a debate about whether the explanations given for plot holes is acceptable than whether there was explanation given at all - AHM's base storyline is fluid and easy to understand, stuff happens and is then concluded in a natural fashion. Regardless of whether you or I are happy with the conclusions reached, those conclusions are there.

A comic, to be fair, is biased by its medium; you can't rewind the movie to check facts and figures and plot points when you're watching it in the theatres, thus is it much easier to be distracted by red herrings, explosions, and shiny visual stimulation than it is when you're reading a book or a graphic novel.

While I'd definitely call ROTF entertaining and a good watch, the poor story had a stronger negative impact on my opinion of the film than it would have if it hadn't pretended to have a story at all. Why do they bother hiring writers when they could just hire choreographers and copy-paste a romantic comedy's script for the filler scenes?
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

onslaught86 wrote:Hmm. That strikes me more as a debate about whether the explanations given for plot holes is acceptable than whether there was explanation given at all - AHM's base storyline is fluid and easy to understand, stuff happens and is then concluded in a natural fashion. Regardless of whether you or I are happy with the conclusions reached, those conclusions are there.
Ideally, you don't want plot holes at all, regardless of if they tried to explain it or not. Just having a fluid, easy to understand base storyline isn't enough to make a good story. Really, I think more stuff could happen in AHM given it is 12 issues long and I felt that 9 of those barely had anything going on as it was. And in both, ROTF and AHM, I think they could do a better job with explaining some of the conclusions.
A comic, to be fair, is biased by its medium; you can't rewind the movie to check facts and figures and plot points when you're watching it in the theatres, thus is it much easier to be distracted by red herrings, explosions, and shiny visual stimulation than it is when you're reading a book or a graphic novel.
You can always watch the movie again, and seeing it multiple times allows for picking out details missed before.
While I'd definitely call ROTF entertaining and a good watch, the poor story had a stronger negative impact on my opinion of the film than it would have if it hadn't pretended to have a story at all. Why do they bother hiring writers when they could just hire choreographers and copy-paste a romantic comedy's script for the filler scenes?
I wouldn't say the story of ROTF itself was poor, rather the execution of some of it was lacking.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by andersonh1 »

I went and saw ROTF on Saturday, and I have mixed feelings about it.

The positive:
- I enjoyed the use of Transformers mythology to create the story, specifically the inclusion of the Fallen, the importance of Primes to Transformers, and an interesting use for the Matrix of Leadership.
- Optimus Prime was much more recognizable in this movie. We saw his more thoughtful side in the first movie, but I was annoyed that Megatron tossed him around like a ragdoll. This time, Optimus was the all around awesome fighter that he should be, particularly during the fight in the forest where he takes on three Decepticons, including Megatron and Starscream, and very nearly wins the fight. In fact, I'd have to say that whenever Optimus is onscreen, the movie's good. The character and performance by Cullen is the highlight of the movie. The fact that he's missing for so much of the middle of the movie is a detriment.
- Interesting to see Megatron as a second banana. That's a new idea.
- It was good to see more of the traditional Megatron/Starscream dynamic. And Starscream gets beat with his own arm. Hah!
- Soundwave was a highlight of the movie. He seemed very much in character to me, particularly with his behind the scenes role and his use of communications to track and coordinate. Excellent.
- I liked the human characters in the first movie, and so I enjoyed their return. The Sam/Mikaela plot wasn't bad, and at times became pretty strong, particularly when the two of them are sticking together when they're in mortal danger. Some of the material with Sam's parents ("We're all going together!") was genuinely touching. Mikaela may be on the screen as eye candy, but she's also a strong character in her own right.
- Nice to see some nods to Pretenders, and also nice to see the Prime/Jetfire combination, possibly in a nod to Armada.
- Just to get political for a moment, I enjoyed the jabs at the Obama administration. Their representative in the movie is a mealy-mouthed idiot (hence Ratchet's amusing comment about him) who wants to negotiate with the Decepticons and who blames the Autobots for the trouble. I love the way he's dumped off the plane at the end of the movie, and the way the general just hangs up on him. Awesome.
- I really enjoyed the camaradierie between the (embarassingly named) NEST soldiers and the Autobots. There's a scene where some dead soldiers are brought back to the airbase and everyone stands at attention. Contrast that with the return of Prime's dead body to the base where he's dumped on the runway. But it does go to show that both sides make sacrifices.
- One of my favorite scenes was the one where Sam meets the ancient Primes and they give him the Matrix. Sam really does behave heroically, as do so many of the other human characters, and it's good to see that acknowledged and rewarded.

The negative:
- Skids and Mudflap: two of the most foul-mouthed and annoying characters we've ever seen in Transformers. Hated both.
- And along those lines, what was up with all the off-color "humor"? Devastator has testicles? Mention of how Sam got his "cherry popped"? Sam's mom eats marijuana laced brownies? Wheelie humps Mikaela's leg? All of this really soured me towards the movie as a whole. There were a few instances of this in the first movie, but they amped it up times ten in this one, or that's how it seemed to me. And I have to say, I've been to a few fraternity parties and none of them were filled with strippers. Has Bay ever been to college? What was the deal with that absolutely idiotic astronomy professor?
- Devastator is wasted. Absolutely wasted. He assembles in order to fight... Simmons and the twins? And then he tears the top off the pyramid, which one supposes any Transformer could have done. And then he's blown away by an incredibly blatant plot device/previously unseen superweapon that is used once. Terrible.

Overall, I generally enjoyed parts of the movie, but I'm finding that all the material I disliked is really dragging it down. I have to say that despite the fact that there were many things about ROTF that improved on the first one, I can't really say that the movie as a whole was better than the first.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

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andersonh1 wrote:- I enjoyed the use of Transformers mythology to create the story, specifically the inclusion of the Fallen, the importance of Primes to Transformers, and an interesting use for the Matrix of Leadership.
This bothered me! Why is it the Matrix of Leadership? Its use here makes even less sense than in AHM. (At least AHM is just following precedent.)
- Optimus Prime was much more recognizable in this movie. We saw his more thoughtful side in the first movie, but I was annoyed that Megatron tossed him around like a ragdoll. This time, Optimus was the all around awesome fighter that he should be, particularly during the fight in the forest where he takes on three Decepticons, including Megatron and Starscream, and very nearly wins the fight. In fact, I'd have to say that whenever Optimus is onscreen, the movie's good. The character and performance by Cullen is the highlight of the movie. The fact that he's missing for so much of the middle of the movie is a detriment.
See, this is a problem I have. I love Cullen and I love his Prime Voice.

...But it's not working.

Fact is, Cullen's Old, and it shows--his Prime now is definitely a wise, old Autobot who would do better as an Obi-Wan Kenobi type than the movie's Luke Skywalker. The ruthless, nearly bloodthirsty Prime that's beating the hell out of Decepticons and saying lines like "I'll take you ALL on!" and "GIVE ME YOUR FACE!" clashes so much with Cullen's performance. Maybe twenty years ago, I could believe it--because Cullen's Prime was a lot younger then--but not now.

I am in no way saying this is Cullen's fault as an actor, and I'm glad he's 'there.' What I'm questioning is his writing in the movie itself. In the first movie, it worked out better--Prime kills Bonecrusher, sure, but really look at what he does--even in 'that' fight he pretty much gets his ass kicked until he hides behind a pillar and decapitates the hate machine. And then Megs basically winning the entire fight, and Prime expressing extreme self-doubt ("If I cannot defeat Megatron...") showed, to me, that Movie Prime is clearly an old man, and his badass action hero performance in ROTF conflicts with that.

I'm also in no way saying that I'm sad Prime has turned into a badass like this, either, I'm just saying I feel a major disconnect.
- Interesting to see Megatron as a second banana. That's a new idea.
And it sucks. Megatron's one of my favourite TF characters ever, period, and part of it's that he just 'does not' compromise. Even staring what is virtually Satan in the face in TFTM, Megatron bargained for a position, and even 'after' that, his influence and rebellion carried on through Galvatron. Megs here is just some dude working for the Big Bad, and it undermines him and makes him suck--much the same way that Cobra Commander instantly sucked the moment Golobulus showed up.
- I really enjoyed the camaradierie between the (embarassingly named) NEST soldiers and the Autobots. There's a scene where some dead soldiers are brought back to the airbase and everyone stands at attention. Contrast that with the return of Prime's dead body to the base where he's dumped on the runway. But it does go to show that both sides make sacrifices.
This whole thing bugged me. Sam dies and we get the whole slow-motion-barely-any-sound-muffled-explosions bit. Prime dies and they just hunk off his body like it's nothing. Bogus.
- Skids and Mudflap: two of the most foul-mouthed and annoying characters we've ever seen in Transformers. Hated both.
Well, that's 'cuz you a pussy.
And I have to say, I've been to a few fraternity parties and none of them were filled with strippers. Has Bay ever been to college?
Yes! College is nothing like this! And what God damn college doesn't allow freshmen to have cars? (Although, honestly, I'm starting to think it's a line Sam fed to 'Bee to get him off his back.)
What was the deal with that absolutely idiotic astronomy professor?
Apparently this is based on a film professor Bay once had, or something. He liked to sleep with female students.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by andersonh1 »

Onslaught Six wrote:
See, this is a problem I have. I love Cullen and I love his Prime Voice.

...But it's not working.

Fact is, Cullen's Old, and it shows--his Prime now is definitely a wise, old Autobot who would do better as an Obi-Wan Kenobi type than the movie's Luke Skywalker. The ruthless, nearly bloodthirsty Prime that's beating the hell out of Decepticons and saying lines like "I'll take you ALL on!" and "GIVE ME YOUR FACE!" clashes so much with Cullen's performance. Maybe twenty years ago, I could believe it--because Cullen's Prime was a lot younger then--but not now.
I couldn't disagree more. I think his voice has improved with age and it suits the character well. He carries more authority now than the character did back in the day. And Cullen may be aging (he's 64), but he hasn't hit the stage where his voice starts to sound thin and aged. He doesn't have that 'old guy' voice yet.

Look at is this way: this is likely the last time we'll hear him play the part. Assuming we get another movie or two, and Cullen plays Prime, and then that's it for live action, he really will be too old after that. Enjoy his presence in the fiction while we can. He's not over the hill yet.

As for the character, it was quite a relief to me to see Prime acting more like the powerhouse that he is than he did in the first movie. I get tired of Optimus Prime getting trashed because he holds back.
I am in no way saying this is Cullen's fault as an actor, and I'm glad he's 'there.' What I'm questioning is his writing in the movie itself. In the first movie, it worked out better--Prime kills Bonecrusher, sure, but really look at what he does--even in 'that' fight he pretty much gets his ass kicked until he hides behind a pillar and decapitates the hate machine. And then Megs basically winning the entire fight, and Prime expressing extreme self-doubt ("If I cannot defeat Megatron...") showed, to me, that Movie Prime is clearly an old man, and his badass action hero performance in ROTF conflicts with that.

I'm also in no way saying that I'm sad Prime has turned into a badass like this, either, I'm just saying I feel a major disconnect.
I think you're misreading the Bonecrusher fight. Prime gets tackled and pushed over the edge of the freeway, but he's the one who hits Bonecrusher (hard enough to knock his optic loose) and sends him over the edge the second time. Prime then goes after him, uses the pillar for cover, and finishes Bonecrusher off in five seconds flat. In no way was Bonecrusher winning the fight, even temporarily.

On the other hand, Prime's not very effective in the fight against Megatron, when the two should be nearly equal. Where was his fighting spirit there? His return to form in ROTF was a welcome change.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by Dominic »

Optimus Pogrom was one of my least favorite bits of the movie. There is a difference between killing an opponent efficiently, (Bonecrusher), and playing with one's food, (Demolishor).
- Just to get political for a moment, I enjoyed the jabs at the Obama administration.
I do not know if that was intentional. Most action movies, especially the bad ones, have a standard "the man is against the good guys" moment. The named mention of Obama was passing, and likely intended to keep the movie "current", much like the clownish Bush proxy in the first movie.

I doubt it was even inteded to be an abstract comment on leadership, (like the AF1 moment in AHM was).


The worst part about Devastator's robotesticles was that they designed the animation model for a cheap summer comedy. trash-joke.


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-well, "Rise of Cobra" might be worse.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

andersonh1 wrote:I couldn't disagree more. I think his voice has improved with age and it suits the character well. He carries more authority now than the character did back in the day. And Cullen may be aging (he's 64), but he hasn't hit the stage where his voice starts to sound thin and aged. He doesn't have that 'old guy' voice yet.
Oh, but he does! Cullen's 80s Prime was more youthful and lighter, while now it's much deeper and bassier. And it's not just abstract processing and effects doing it--you can hear it when he does the same voice for commercials on Cartoon Network and the like. (It's either that, or he's purposefully doing it deeper now than he did in the 80s, but I'll err on the side of caution.)
Look at is this way: this is likely the last time we'll hear him play the part. Assuming we get another movie or two, and Cullen plays Prime, and then that's it for live action, he really will be too old after that. Enjoy his presence in the fiction while we can. He's not over the hill yet.
I'm not saying I wish Cullen wasn't in the movies, I just wish that Prime was being written more to how Cullen's voice is. In actuality, it's the exact same situation as Welker/Weaving for Megs's part--Welker's voice (supposedly?) wouldn't work with Megatron's personality, look and lines, and Weaving's performance does. (And I must say, in ROTF, Weaving makes me believe Bay was right.) It was even said that the model for Prime's actions and general behaviour in the first movie was a Liam Neeson-type, which brings--to me, at least--images of Qui-Gon Jinn and Ducard/Ra's al Ghul--two characters who are older, wiser and significantly less Main Action Hero-types.

I'm not really blaming Cullen at all, here--the man is churning out what is probably the most high-profile work he's done in years, and it's 'good.' None of Prime's lines ever feel forced or anything; it's moreover just that Prime's 'actions' don't match up well with his words, nor his performance.
As for the character, it was quite a relief to me to see Prime acting more like the powerhouse that he is than he did in the first movie. I get tired of Optimus Prime getting trashed because he holds back.
And I'm still not saying Prime being a badass is a bad thing in general, it's just...I don't see it working with Cullen's performance here. I mean, try to imagine Cullen, as he is now, 64, doing 'any' of the things Prime is doing in the movie. Or, perhaps as a stronger/better comparison, try to compare Clint Eastwood in the 70s with Clint Eastwood now. Clint Eastwood is an Old Dude now, so he can't do all the things 70s Eastwood did. Trying to buy Clint Eastwood now in a starring role in a 'huge action movie' with lots of fight scenes would be odd and disconnecting.

I dunno, it's just something that kinda bothered me, but I'm not gonna push the point any further because I don't want to drag out an argument.
On the other hand, Prime's not very effective in the fight against Megatron, when the two should be nearly equal. Where was his fighting spirit there? His return to form in ROTF was a welcome change.
Says what, though? Even in G1, it was heavily implied that Prime and Megs were not the same age--in an early episode, Prime calls Megs "old hardware, outdated, ready for the scrap heap," which says to me that Megs is a great deal older than the idealistic young Prime. Although Traditional G1 Prime eventually evolved into being an older character, and these days you could probably peg them as about the same.

It 'also' has no bearing on the situation in the movies, either, being that the situation would be reversed--young Megs, old Prime. I dunno. Thinking out loud. I'm tired.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Onslaught Six wrote:This bothered me! Why is it the Matrix of Leadership? Its use here makes even less sense than in AHM. (At least AHM is just following precedent.)
They do explain it is a relic of the Dynasty of Primes who were/are the leaders of the Cybertronian race. It makes sense the Matrix would also be being part of that leadership, given the whole 'it has to be earned' thing the Primes tell Sam. And it didn't do anything in AHM except get stolen. Here it at least was used for a purpose.
Onslaught Six wrote:And what God damn college doesn't allow freshmen to have cars?
The college I went to certainly didn't allow freshman to have cars, save for certain situations. The whole point of which is to get more money by forcing freshman to live in the dorms.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

Hm. I must go to a screwy one, then, because I've always commuted. Probably because I live within a certain distance.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: The Spoileriffic Movie Discussion Thread

Post by andersonh1 »

Onslaught Six wrote:
andersonh1 wrote:I couldn't disagree more. I think his voice has improved with age and it suits the character well. He carries more authority now than the character did back in the day. And Cullen may be aging (he's 64), but he hasn't hit the stage where his voice starts to sound thin and aged. He doesn't have that 'old guy' voice yet.
Oh, but he does! Cullen's 80s Prime was more youthful and lighter, while now it's much deeper and bassier. And it's not just abstract processing and effects doing it--you can hear it when he does the same voice for commercials on Cartoon Network and the like. (It's either that, or he's purposefully doing it deeper now than he did in the 80s, but I'll err on the side of caution.)
I agree, it's clearly deeper. Whether it's Cullen doing that deliberately, or a natural change in his voice, or effects work, I don't know.

I think we just have different impressions of what an 'old' voice sounds like. Most older folks that I know have voices that have become higher and weaker as they've aged. That varies by individual of course, and there are exceptions, but that's the general trend that I've observed. That's probably why hearing the Prime from the movies compared to the Prime in the old cartoon hasn't left me the impression that he's too old. I don't equate deeper with older.
I dunno, it's just something that kinda bothered me, but I'm not gonna push the point any further because I don't want to drag out an argument.
Not an argument, just a friendly discussion. We'll just have to disagree on this one I suppose.
Says what, though? Even in G1, it was heavily implied that Prime and Megs were not the same age--in an early episode, Prime calls Megs "old hardware, outdated, ready for the scrap heap," which says to me that Megs is a great deal older than the idealistic young Prime.
I've always viewed that scene as Prime trash-talking Megatron rather than really saying anything about his age. Though admittedly Megatron is later shown to be older than Prime in "War Dawn", where the Aerialbots witness Prime's creation after Megatron has already begun the war. The War Within comics follow this to some extent, with Megatron and the war predating Optimus Prime, though he did exist in his non-Prime form.

In any case, I was referring to the physical prowess of the two leaders, not their respective ages, and they've almost always been on pretty much equal footing when it comes to combat ability.
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