TF Views

Um... I have to point out a glaring inconsistency with the internal continuity of BW. Y'see, while they DO bring in elements of the G1 continuities to flesh out the story, they make sure to keep it all to roughly hearsay and rumor; yes, we DO see the Ark and the Nemesis and the Transformers within, but the story of HOW they ended up there had been reduced to error-filled speculation and Arthurian legend, as if NO ONE in the TF future really knows what happened during the Great War. Yet we have already established TWO people who have studied that history thoroughly (Dinobot and Blackarachnia, as seen in "Possession"), and thanks to Ravage's appearance, we know that CHARACTERS FROM THAT TIME PERIOD ARE STILL AROUND. Oh, yeah, they said that the Maximal Elders had all knowledge of the past sealed up and rendered Earth off-limits to everyone, but c'mon; with all of this evidence as to what really happened laying about for just about anyone to pick up and learn from, why are the characters acting like it's all a big mystery? Was this done on purpose to quell hateful emails from fans pointing out the inconsistencies, sort of a way of saying "Well, they don't really KNOW what happened, so don't blame us if they got some details wrong"? Why put in so many references to the original series(es), only to make it seem all mystical and inconclusive, and then add in elements that CONTRADICT your reasons for making the references so cryptic?

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Um... I have to point out a glaring inconsistency with the internal continuity of BW. Y'see, while they DO bring in elements of the G1 continuities to flesh out the story, they make sure to keep it all to roughly hearsay and rumor; yes, we DO see the Ark and the Nemesis and the Transformers within, but the story of HOW they ended up there had been reduced to error-filled speculation and Arthurian legend, as if NO ONE in the TF future really knows what happened during the Great War.

I'm trying to remember all the instances where G1 events were 'error-filled', and the only thing I can really think off offhand is that both Primal and Megatron assert that the Nemesis shot down the Ark, which obviously isn't what happened. Most of the references to G1 are factually accurate. Starscream lies about how his body was destroyed, but Blackarachnia is able to learn the truth and confront him. The story about Megatron inscribing the message in the golden disk is a retcon, but doesn't contradict anything in G1. There are numerous minor references to G1 such as Starscream's appearance in Cheetor's dream early in the show, or Waspinator's imitation of Shrapnel. At the end of the show, the Ark is sticking out of the side of the mountain as it should be, and the Nemesis is presumably on its way to South America.

I'm probably missing a few events here and there, but I can't really agree with your premise, that no one really knows what happened. The events of the Great War seem to be fairly well known, or at least some major events and figures are well known. The only real comic-only reference in the show is Primus, and possibly the names of the Ark and the Nemesis, since neither were named in the cartoon that I can remember.

BW was also a re-launch of the franchise. There had been no content for about 2 years, and no show for nearly 10. (And, I hate to say it, outside of the rabid fan-base, nobody gives a rat's arse about the obscure post "Rebirth" stuff.) BW was a cleaner attempt at what DC did with "Man of Steel" in 1986.

I tend to take the middle ground articulated by Anderson, that reboots are okay so long as they are internally consistent. I will even go so far as to say reboots are necessary to prevent a franchise from becoming too insular.

The problem is that the reboots can become license to write on the fly with no planning and even less to actually say. And, as much as I like idea based stories, (such as "All Hail Megatron", the better "Spotlight" editions, or the high points of the Beast-era or the Unicron Trilogy), "Transformers", (like most comics), is an event driven story. Too many big events pull the story out of perspective. And, sloppy continuity robs the purely even driven stories of what little meaning they have, making them a complete waste of time.

Dom




Nemesis digression: The Ark *crashed* as a result of the Nemesis attacking. As a kind of lazy short-hand, I can see that being compressed into "the Ark was shot down". If any members of the Axalon's crew were teachers, they may well have corrected the error. Similarly, Dinobot, a student of history, would have likely rankled. Or, maybe in the re-launch, the Nemesis did broad-side the Ark.

andersonh1 wrote:

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Um... I have to point out a glaring inconsistency with the internal continuity of BW. Y'see, while they DO bring in elements of the G1 continuities to flesh out the story, they make sure to keep it all to roughly hearsay and rumor; yes, we DO see the Ark and the Nemesis and the Transformers within, but the story of HOW they ended up there had been reduced to error-filled speculation and Arthurian legend, as if NO ONE in the TF future really knows what happened during the Great War.

I'm trying to remember all the instances where G1 events were 'error-filled', and the only thing I can really think off offhand is that both Primal and Megatron assert that the Nemesis shot down the Ark, which obviously isn't what happened. Most of the references to G1 are factually accurate. Starscream lies about how his body was destroyed, but Blackarachnia is able to learn the truth and confront him. The story about Megatron inscribing the message in the golden disk is a retcon, but doesn't contradict anything in G1. There are numerous minor references to G1 such as Starscream's appearance in Cheetor's dream early in the show, or Waspinator's imitation of Shrapnel. At the end of the show, the Ark is sticking out of the side of the mountain as it should be, and the Nemesis is presumably on its way to South America.

I'm probably missing a few events here and there, but I can't really agree with your premise, that no one really knows what happened. The events of the Great War seem to be fairly well known, or at least some major events and figures are well known. The only real comic-only reference in the show is Primus, and possibly the names of the Ark and the Nemesis, since neither were named in the cartoon that I can remember.

Here's the problem; while they DO give a good amount of accurate information about the G1 continuity, they throw in just enough doubt into its veracity as the characters remember it to render it Arthurian lore - Optimus lamenting how they knew so little about Starscream, because of how his files were sealed, or the somewhat-inaccurate retelling of the Ark/Nemesis battle. They give us just enough "ifs" and "as I've heard its" from the characters themselves about their own history, that we're halfway-convinced that information HAS been left out or corrupted, and they may NOT have the full answer, most likely as a backdoor for the writers to save their asses if they're pegged by the fans over continuity inconsistencies (as I said before, essentially saying "Well, this is how they were told it, but they don't know EXACTLY how it happened, so they could be wrong"). BUT, then we have stuff like Ravage's appearance in "The Agenda", clearly showing that he (and other G1 Transformers from his time frame) were still alive at that point, AND had full knowledge of the events in question. And yet, even with that little kick to the lugnuts, clearly showing that the full, unambiguous truth of the events in G1 is out there and ripe for the plucking, each time a new G1 plotpoint comes up, the characters react as if it were still Arthurian lore, cloudy and ambiguous. In other words, they tried so hard to make us believe that the Maximals and Predacons don't have full records of the events of G1, that the full and true details about those events have become lost and corrupted in the mists of time...then bring in a character that proves that no, they DO have full records of those events, and there is no way in HELL the details should be so vague...and then try to convince us to ignore that and continue to believe that they DON'T have all the details, for dramatic convenience. It's like, being told fantasies about Santa Claus, then being handed a book that clearly details the life of St. Nicholas and proves that, while he was a real man, the mystical stuff he supposedly did never happened...and then having the book taken away from you and being told those same fantasies again, expecting your perception of the man to not change. It's illogical; you're purposely making something ambiguous and trying to convince us that the characters don't have all the facts about their own history, then bringing in an expert on those events that can clearly erase that ambiguity and fill in all the missing spaces in their records, and then having you go back to believing everything's ambiguous, again, after the expert's left. That doesn't work.

Y'know Synjo, did it ever occur to you that maybe the BW guys just...weren't that up on their history? No, seriously, can you recall and recite every little detail of every event from your country's founding up until now? I'd wager not. It'd likely be an account riddled with "I think this happened" and "I don't really recall what happened here". I mean sure, you've got guys like Dinobot and Blackarachnia who seemingly actually paid attention in history class, but the rest are all pretty average in that respect.

Also, just because Ravage is still around doesn't mean everyone has records of previous events. I don't think Ravage especially cares if historical records of the Great War are freely available, especially since they'd mainly detail him getting his ass kicked by Hound repeatedly. Plus, Ravage is a secret friggin' agent, it would only make sense for information regarding him and where he came from to be hard to find (Although Primal at least knew that he'd been granted amnesty, the bit about him being rebuilt as a Predacon agent was only 'rumored').

Ravage is "one of the few Decepticons granted amnesty."

Which basically implies it's probably him and like six other guys.

We're given no indication how many G1 TFs are still alive and functioning in this day and age. Even the Wreckers, the (now non-canon?) Botcon stories from the BM era, show that only a few guys like Hot Rod, Cyclonus and Arcee are surviving to this day.

Add in the fact that TFs are *notoriously* known for having no records of their history. In various continuities, the G1ers forgot that they A) Had a god B) Were built by Quintessons C) Used to budd off of each other to reproduce. Even in ROTF, Prime himself says, "All records of our race were contained within the AllSpark." TFs simply *do not* have a lot of time to be thinking about what happened a long time ago. They're too busy...having a war, usually.

BWprowl wrote:Y'know Synjo, did it ever occur to you that maybe the BW guys just...weren't that up on their history? No, seriously, can you recall and recite every little detail of every event from your country's founding up until now? I'd wager not. It'd likely be an account riddled with "I think this happened" and "I don't really recall what happened here". I mean sure, you've got guys like Dinobot and Blackarachnia who seemingly actually paid attention in history class, but the rest are all pretty average in that respect.

Also, just because Ravage is still around doesn't mean everyone has records of previous events. I don't think Ravage especially cares if historical records of the Great War are freely available, especially since they'd mainly detail him getting his ass kicked by Hound repeatedly. Plus, Ravage is a secret friggin' agent, it would only make sense for information regarding him and where he came from to be hard to find (Although Primal at least knew that he'd been granted amnesty, the bit about him being rebuilt as a Predacon agent was only 'rumored').

His presence signified that there WERE Transformers from the G1 era alive and available to give an accurate account of the Great War. Sure, I can accept that the average Maximal or Predacon may not care that much about history, but the show seems to want us to think that this is true for ALL Maximals and Predacons, the entire PLANET of Cybertron is that ignorant of its history, and Ravage's presence in the cartoon proves that is not the case. If not Ravage, then surely some of the other Autobots or Decepticons that survived and retired could've come forward and offered to fill in the gaps of history.

The point is, we're told to believe that, for all intents and purposes, the history of the Great War was ambiguous and mythologized, and there was no way anyone could get the full history of it out. Ravage's presence shattered that image, as it proved that there WERE Transformers from that era alive that, if need be, could have set the record straight. And THEN, after HE leaves, we're told to go back to believing that the Great War was ambiguous and mythologized, once again. And as you pointed out, it was clear that even the Maximals and Predacons THEMSELVES knew there were Great War survivors that could set the record straight, making why a good deal of the history surrounding it was reduced to mere rumor and speculation. It's like trying to demonstrate how no one knows the truth about the Vietnam War and make every bit of "history" surrounding it be ambiguous, then bring in a veteran from that war to give a short lecture, then shuttling him out of the way to continue to demonstrate how no one knows the truth about the Vietnam War; your methods of trying to keep the history ambiguous fails when you demonstrate there ARE experts out there to answer questions about it if need be, especially if you're going to continue to keep the history ambiguous AFTER you brought in the experts. Once you know that there ARE experts and survivors from the Great War still alive in the Beast Wars, and understand that the Maximals and Predacons KNEW of these experts and survivors, trying to pass off the Great War as Arthurian lore pretty much fails. Once you show that the experts DO exist and the characters ARE aware of their existence, the viewer is left to wonder why there isn't more of the history known, and why so much of it is ambiguous and mythical, ESPECIALLY when there wasn't a war going on, at the time.

SynjoDeonecros wrote:If not Ravage, then surely some of the other Autobots or Decepticons that survived and retired could've come forward and offered to fill in the gaps of history.

Unless the Maximal Elders were all, "Hey, you guys shut the hell up about all that 'Great War' stuff, and we'll give you This in return."

It may very well be that the only reason they're even running around in the first place is that they agreed not to talk.

And THEN, after HE leaves, we're told to go back to believing that the Great War was ambiguous and mythologized, once again.

Ravage is around for three episodes (one of which he shows up at the end of, if I'm not mistaken) of the entire series. And most of the time he's either talking to Megs about the Golden Disk, or he's trying to kill everyone.

And then after that, he's dead.

So, really--who the hell *else* would they ask about the Great War? They all know only what they've learned and been told before--and nothing else. They can't ask Ravage what really happened because Ravage is dead, and it's not like they can ask the guys on the Ark what happened because it technically *hasn't happened yet.* (Plus that would screw with the timestream in so many ways, it's not even funny.)

The next time they run into anyone who might have this information is, uh, well, never. Because they go back to Cybertron and Megs took it over.

Onslaught Six wrote:

SynjoDeonecros wrote:If not Ravage, then surely some of the other Autobots or Decepticons that survived and retired could've come forward and offered to fill in the gaps of history.

Unless the Maximal Elders were all, "Hey, you guys shut the hell up about all that 'Great War' stuff, and we'll give you This in return."

It may very well be that the only reason they're even running around in the first place is that they agreed not to talk.

And THEN, after HE leaves, we're told to go back to believing that the Great War was ambiguous and mythologized, once again.

Ravage is around for three episodes (one of which he shows up at the end of, if I'm not mistaken) of the entire series. And most of the time he's either talking to Megs about the Golden Disk, or he's trying to kill everyone.

And then after that, he's dead.

So, really--who the hell *else* would they ask about the Great War? They all know only what they've learned and been told before--and nothing else. They can't ask Ravage what really happened because Ravage is dead, and it's not like they can ask the guys on the Ark what happened because it technically *hasn't happened yet.* (Plus that would screw with the timestream in so many ways, it's not even funny.)

The next time they run into anyone who might have this information is, uh, well, never. Because they go back to Cybertron and Megs took it over.

That's the Maximals; the Predacons had no such laws, if Dinobot and Blackarachnia were any indication. And besides that...that brings up another plot hole; Optimus stated he knew so little about Starscream, because the Maximal Elders sealed those records from the rest of the Maximal population, yet in "Bad Spark", he stated that Rampage was a creation of a Maximal experiment to duplicate the mutation that made Starscream's spark indestructible. That seems to indicate that he was PRIVY to the details of the experiment, INCLUDING the records of the Decepticon they based the experiment on. So why claim to not know anything about the 'con if he DID know?

As for who they could've talked to...who ever said they couldn't have asked BEFORE they took their trip? True, they probably didn't need the knowledge, at the time, not expecting to be thrown back to prehistoric Earth, but they were on a mission with ties to the events of the Great War; you'd think that they'd try to bone up on their history a bit to make sure they knew what to expect, even if it meant going out of the Maximal Elders' jurisdiction and talking with one of the surviving Autobots or Decepticons about Starscream. Oh, and once they joined the team, Dinobot and Blackarachnia COULD'VE shared with them the research they did on the Great Warl, giving them more of a leg-up on the subject.

The bottom line is, the writers clearly showed that there were experts and survivors of the Great War that could've filled out the missing pieces of the era's history for their descendants, and the Maximals and Predacons had AMPLE opportunities to explore those, both before AND during the Beast Wars, and they DIDN'T. They COULDN'T; it would have ruined the faux mysticism the writers were trying to surround the war's events with, and screwed with their storytelling. But, since they DID show that they COULD'VE, it was ruined, anyway.

SynjoDeonecros wrote:And besides that...that brings up another plot hole; Optimus stated he knew so little about Starscream, because the Maximal Elders sealed those records from the rest of the Maximal population, yet in "Bad Spark", he stated that Rampage was a creation of a Maximal experiment to duplicate the mutation that made Starscream's spark indestructible. That seems to indicate that he was PRIVY to the details of the experiment, INCLUDING the records of the Decepticon they based the experiment on. So why claim to not know anything about the 'con if he DID know?

Just because Primal knew the Protoform X project was an attempt to create an indestructible spark like Starscream's doesn't really indicate how privy Primal was to all the details of the experiment, let alone of Starscream. Given the secrecy of the project, I'd assume Primal was only given a 'need to know' briefing on Protoform X, so Primal would know how important it was that Protoform X was properly deposed of and why they couldn't just imprison him or kill him. As such, Primal probably only knew that one detail on Starscream, and that wouldn't be very useful in fighting Starscream, not to mention he probably would be trying to keep the secrecy of Protoform X at the time given X was still in orbit.