multiversal musings

[Shockwave]

And just to make it worse, isn't a multiverse just a collection of alternate universes?

And Animated referrence the G1 cartoon as "history tapes" so I guess technically that could fall into the "G1 Multiverse" as well?

[Sparky Prime]

And just to make it worse, isn't a multiverse just a collection of alternate universes?

Pretty much.

And Animated referrence the G1 cartoon as "history tapes" so I guess technically that could fall into the "G1 Multiverse" as well?

The history tapes scene I'd call more of a homage to G1, of which Animated has plenty of, as well to other TF continuities. But I'd say Animated itself is unique compared to other continuities that puts it in its own category rather than making it a part of another "multiverse cluster".

[BWprowl]

Actually, Animated itself *is* linked to other alternate universes, per The Allspark Almanac.

Though it also would seem to have its own corresponding versions of TransTech and Shattered Glass, so make of that what you will.

Going back to IDW, it's worth noting that, if you believe Perceptor in the last issue of MTMTE, 'alternate timelines' didn't actually exist for that continuity prior to them dinking around with Brainstorm's briefcase, so.

I think a distinction does need to be made between 'alternate timeline', 'alternate universe', and what I could really only call 'other universe' or maybe 'alternate dimension'. The Dead Universe in IDW would really fall into that last category, being itself basically still a 'part' of the IDW universe, just an alternate dimension thereof. It couldn't really be considered its own separate continuity/thing; the various characters that owe their origins to it wouldn't be considered 'crossover' characters, y'dig? Similarly, the bonus timeline seen in the latest MTMTE arc is purely the result of a time-travel side-trip and is completely dragooned into that story, you couldn't really say it's the same as a whole other universe in a multiverse.

My opinion of the best use of the actual 'Multiverse' thus far in TF would probably be ReG1, where Furman simply acknowledged it, and that he was 'cutting off' the Marvel G1 universe from it. It was very nicely done, and an effective nod to just how TF has grown since the last time that continuity ended.

[Shockwave]

I generally tend to look at the franchise as a whole as a multiverse. Which basically means that any given character is essentially the same character just interpreted differently into the various different settings. Like, G1 Optimus is the same as Armada Optimus, but Armada Optimus is G1 Prime for the Armada setting. Maybe a bad example, but the best way I can phrase it.

[BWprowl]

I tend to dislike that idea not only because it encourages the recycling of idiomatic characters even in obstinately 'new' settings, but also because of how much disparity there can be. Armada Optimus may be pretty similar to G1 Optimus, yeah, but does that mean Beast Wars Optimus is obligated to be grouped in with these guys? Animated Optimus is a very different individual as well. Is Armada Cyclonus essentially the same as G1 Cyclonus? Is Energon Strongarm the same as RID15 Strongarm?

Generally, in new/alternate universes, I find the best way to regard characters like that is that they are a 'new' character who exists in homage to the older character, but are themselves still an individual. Granted, Hasbro themselves don't play by these rules (see their idiotic setups for some Hall of Fame characters; G1 Starscream, Armada Starscream, and Movie Starscream don't even play by the same rules you weirdos what are you even doing?!) but it still makes more sense then trying to rationalize that Beast Wars Airazor is somehow the same as ROTF Airazor.

[Sparky Prime]

Actually, Animated itself *is* linked to other alternate universes, per The Allspark Almanac.

Though it also would seem to have its own corresponding versions of TransTech and Shattered Glass, so make of that what you will.

Linked? I think that's a different concept than what I was talking about. I just meant Animated is its own thing, like the G1 universes is not the same as the Unicrion Trilogy universes. Animated has it's own "multiversal cluster". Something the Transtech's have recognized in how they categorize the universal streams, giving each continuity family its own unique universal identifier.

[Dominic]

Code: Select all

 Wait, so I'm confused, are we listing the different continuities or are we only discussing genres of TF that have had in story multiverses?   

I am focused more on the latter. But, I listed Hasbro content because Hasbro is the ultimate arbiter. And, they had a specific mutliverse (TF Universe) not longer after their first major reboot ("Robots in Disguise").

The history tapes scene I'd call more of a homage to G1, of which Animated has plenty of, as well to other TF continuities. But I'd say Animated itself is unique compared to other continuities that puts it in its own category rather than making it a part of another "multiverse cluster".

It is listed as part of the multiverse, complete with an overly complex designation.

Though it also would seem to have its own corresponding versions of TransTech and Shattered Glass, so make of that what you will.

Yup. Damn, I hate "Animated".

My opinion of the best use of the actual 'Multiverse' thus far in TF would probably be ReG1, where Furman simply acknowledged it, and that he was 'cutting off' the Marvel G1 universe from it. It was very nicely done, and an effective nod to just how TF has grown since the last time that continuity ended.

I can see that.

But, I still lean towards "Target: 2006", and the absolutely ruthless use Furman made of the idea. He had a character on page consider the possibility of the multiverse (alternate timelines, whatever) as way to resolve the story. This also allowed for a back door that Furman (and the rest of the UK office) could use to explain away inevitable mistakes later.

Generally, in new/alternate universes, I find the best way to regard characters like that is that they are a 'new' character who exists in homage to the older character, but are themselves still an individual. Granted, Hasbro themselves don't play by these rules (see their idiotic setups for some Hall of Fame characters; G1 Starscream, Armada Starscream, and Movie Starscream don't even play by the same rules you weirdos what are you even doing?!) but it still makes more sense then trying to rationalize that Beast Wars Airazor is somehow the same as ROTF Airazor.

At this point, it is helpful to step back. If the comics are good, buy 'em. If not, skip 'em.

For example, IDW "GI Joe" specifically has alternate timelines, by virtue of being part of two "Infestaton" events. But, 99% of the time, there is no need to consider other Joe comics when reading IDW Joe comics.

Something the Transtech's have recognized in how they categorize the universal streams, giving each continuity family its own unique universal identifier.

And, that is the crazily complex listing system I mentioned earlier.

The "clusters" are parts of a whole multiverse (assuming somebody really needs to reconcile things that badly).

[Shockwave]

I tend to dislike that idea not only because it encourages the recycling of idiomatic characters even in obstinately 'new' settings, but also because of how much disparity there can be. Armada Optimus may be pretty similar to G1 Optimus, yeah, but does that mean Beast Wars Optimus is obligated to be grouped in with these guys? Animated Optimus is a very different individual as well. Is Armada Cyclonus essentially the same as G1 Cyclonus? Is Energon Strongarm the same as RID15 Strongarm?

Generally, in new/alternate universes, I find the best way to regard characters like that is that they are a 'new' character who exists in homage to the older character, but are themselves still an individual. Granted, Hasbro themselves don't play by these rules (see their idiotic setups for some Hall of Fame characters; G1 Starscream, Armada Starscream, and Movie Starscream don't even play by the same rules you weirdos what are you even doing?!) but it still makes more sense then trying to rationalize that Beast Wars Airazor is somehow the same as ROTF Airazor.

Well like I said, it's a pretty poor example, but the Airazor comment is generally how I tend to think of it. Sort of. It would be more accurate for me to say that ROTF Airazor is just that universe's version of Airazor because BW Airazor doesn't exist in that continuity and this character essentially exists in place of that character.

Really this is all predicated on the "rock in the river" theory of time travel, which was conceived of to resolve the grandfather paradox. We all know the theory: You go back in time and kill your grandfather before your father was born, thus causing you not to be born, thus preventing you from going back thus... But, if you go back and kill your grandfather, it creates an alternate universe where you don't exist. The real question would be what happens to the time traveler in that scenario once they return to their own time. Do they return to their own universe, where the grandfather is still alive, or do they return to the future of the universe where they succeeded in killing him? Target: 2006 assumes the former, which is essentially how Hot Rod, Kup and Blurr, beat Galvatron. On a side note, I would have loved to see a follow up story where Skywarp gets repaired and wakes up still painted to look like Starscream. The two universes were one until that point where they diverged. Branching off of this theory is the idea that every decision we make essentially creates an alternate universe where the opposite decision was made. This would mean that there is already an infinite number of alternate universes for just our own existence. For example, let's say there is a universe where the Nazis won WWII. So now there's an America where everyone speaks German and is under Nazi rule. It's entirely possible that I could still exist in that universe, but I could be very different. I could even be a different gender, I'd be fluent in German rather than English and a whole host of other differences as well. That version of me would be very different than the me of this universe, but it would still be me since this version of me doesn't exist in that universe. That's essentially how I tend to think of the different various versions of Transformers. And with those different universes, sometimes characters will exist in one but not another. Side Burn never existed in G1, but Bumblebee and Ironhide never existed in RID.

Personally, I believe that in reality there is only one timeline, one universe, one version of us. I also don't believe that time travel is possible. I don't believe that we can go either forward or back in time and I don't think we could visit other timelines/realities/universes. I know, I know, scientists want us to believe that if you go fast enough that you'll travel back in time. Personally, I think that's bullshit. I think, since our vision is based on light, that we would appear to be going back in time, but I think it would be one of those times when we wouldn't be able to trust our eyes. And really, I actually think that once we break the light barrier we would be able to see just fine. Using the sound barrier as an example. Going Mach speed means you're going faster than you can hear. But, when we're going that fast, we don't hear things backwards. we hear on loud sonic boom when we break the sound barrier and after that we hear normally. I believe something similar would happen with light speed. There would be a bright flash of light and then we would just be going really really fast. No special effects, no time travel, nothing.

What was I saying? Oh right, different TF continuities/multiverses. Anyway, my perspective has actually come up in fiction. I'm reminded of a TF book (paperback) that was based on G1, but it had aliens pulling TFs from various different continuities and making them fight each other. One match involved Armada Smokescreen vs. G1 Smokescreen. There was even an acknowledgement on page that the two had essentially nothing in common except for the name but they were both regarded as "the" Smokescreen of their respective universes.

So where does that leave us? It's not so much that same named characters are the same as each other, but really, perceiving the franchise as a collective multiverse basically just allows us to enjoy any given TF story in it's own setting and on it's own terms without having to reconcile it with other unrelated or contradictory stories. The alternative would be to either go completely insane trying to reconcile the inconsistencies in the stories or just write all of it off as crap. Personally, I like being able to enjoy each thing for what it is.

[Dominic]

The alternative would be to either go completely insane trying to reconcile the inconsistencies in the stories or just write all of it off as crap. Personally, I like being able to enjoy each thing for what it is.

But, why is a the idea of a multiverse needed to read a comic (or watch a show) as it is?

The multiverse idea is primarily a crutch to allow obsessive fans to easily reconcile everything if they really want to "make it all fit". But, it is not needed.

From 1986 to 2006, DC had no formal multiverse. In fact, they specifically ruled the idea out. (Every so often, a writer would try to sneak the idea in. But, the only two sanctioned examples were Morrison's "Earth 2" and Byrne's "Pocket Universe". The later was a quick-fix that was destroyed immediately after it was used.)

DC never once felt the need to reconcile then current comics with "Batman: the Animated Series", the Burton/Shumaker "Batman" movies, "Justice League: Unlimited" or "Teen Titans Go!". DC never once tried to reconcile their "Elseworlds" books with mainline comics. (In fact, it was rare for an "Elseworlds" book to get a sequel, never mind to cross-over with another book.)

For the purposes of their comics, DC specifically ruled out a multiverse for decades, but never had problems publishing unrelated content.

The real question would be what happens to the time traveler in that scenario once they return to their own time. Do they return to their own universe, where the grandfather is still alive, or do they return to the future of the universe where they succeeded in killing him? Target: 2006 assumes the former, which is essentially how Hot Rod, Kup and Blurr, beat Galvatron.

Another take on this is that the time traveller is effectively isolated from the changes that they (or other time travellers) would make if they travelled to a point before the changes were made. "Crisis on Infinite Earths" was an example of this at first. (Later, it was less clear which characters were directly impacted and/or remembered.) The Terminator movies are another example, as Skynet is shown to be able to "remember" scenarios and circumstances across changes to the timeline, and is able to ensure its creation even after its original "birth" had been prevented.

Similarly, in TF, Furman's "Time Wars" assumed that the the characters who traveled through time were isolated from changes to the timeline. (Rodimus and the others left the year 2008 as the timeline was collapsing. When they returned, time had restabilized. However, history had changed significantly.)

I also don't believe that time travel is possible. I don't believe that we can go either forward or back in time and I don't think we could visit other timelines/realities/universes.

I actually travelled through time *and* space this morning. I left home at around 8am, and arrived (several miles away) at work roughly an hour later. (And, I swear that the local transit system exists in slow-time because I left at least 5 minutes early and caught an earlier train, but I nearly missed a connecting bus that always leaves at the same time.)

Going Mach speed means you're going faster than you can hear. But, when we're going that fast, we don't hear things backwards. we hear on loud sonic boom when we break the sound barrier and after that we hear normally. I believe something similar would happen with light speed. There would be a bright flash of light and then we would just be going really really fast. No special effects, no time travel, nothing

There is some evidence that gravity and speed influence the "speed" of time. But, the science for this (and observation impact on quantum/probability) is still very rudimentary .

There was even an acknowledgement on page that the two had essentially nothing in common except for the name but they were both regarded as "the" Smokescreen of their respective universes.

You are talking about "Transformers: Universe" #1. That was the first comic that I had to "count" purely because it was official, even though it read like fanfic. (I used to have a mutual friend with the artist, Dan Khanna. Khanna told my buddy that "Universe" was "Avengers Forever" with Transformers. In other words, "Universe" was derivative of another comic that in and of itself read like fanfic.)

I do not recall there being any mention on page about it being "Smokescreen v/s Smokescreen". If I am remembering correctly (and I can check later tonight), it was a visual gag that *everybody* and their mother picked up on.

(And, really, why should two guys with the same name have to be related in any way? There is a guy who works in this office suit who has the same name as me. The wrestling promotion I used to help out at had enough guys with the same first names that some guys ended up being known by last names or ring names for the sake of identification. Hell, when I was in school, there was another student with the same first and last name as me. But, in TF, when two guys have the same name, they are the same guy.....even across different universes.)

[Shockwave]

You are talking about "Transformers: Universe" #1.

No, I'm not. This was not a comic book, it was a paperback novel. And, it was one out of a trilogy. This is not to be confused with the recent trilogy of books taking place in the "aligned" universe. In fact, I think this particular trilogy was released during Dreamwave's run. But, like I said, paperback novel, not comic book.