Are toys dying? How can Hasbro spice up TFs?

[BWprowl]

I was thinking more "good representations of the characters", not SD junk. "Heroes of Cybertron" sold because those were the best figures of G1 characters anybody could have expected at the time.

Implying tiny unposable figurines that don’t transform aren’t just as ‘junk’-y as little SD representations, get off your high horse. The PVCs were worthless as actual toys, when I first saw them reviewed on Ben Yee’s page a million years ago, I considered them more akin to trading cards than action figures. They’re a half-step above cardboard standees.

I dunno. 25-30 years ago, any forays to the toy section (or Toys R Us) generally consisted of me looking for toys from the tv show/comic/movie that I liked. I was prioritizing for media by the time I was 7 or so. There were a few exceptions. But, they were rare, and included gifts.

We can go round and round in anecdotal circles if we want, but can you honestly say you were an example of a typical child consumer at that point? Kids buy cool toys because toys look cool; no one specifically grabs a Nerf gun because it was in a tie-in cartoon. TFs, especially at that point in the franchise, were the same way, selling themselves on their own merits, with the media being supplemental. You (or at least I) went in for TF cartoons and comics because I had the toys and liked them and wanted to see them ‘in action’. I didn’t even know Beast Wars had a cartoon tie-in until many months into the toyline, when I already had plenty of the toys.

In the case of SW and Marvel, Hasbro justifies the "Premium" label on what used to be standard figures by releasing simplified junk as the regular figures. As Hasbro tells it, regular figures in 2014 have 5 points of articulation and few (if any) accessories. The regular of yesterday is the "Premium" of today.

Stuff like Marvel Legends never used to be the ‘standard’, those were always marketed as ‘Premium’ special figures where high detail and cracked-out articulation was the ‘feature’. It’s a common model, with Mattel doing similar things between gimmicky kids’ figures and ‘Movie Masters’ figures sold concurrently. The difference now (with SW Black being the prime example) is that the toys are now aggressively being marketed as adult-targeted, collector-oriented figures, but the sculpts, paint, and quality control are in no way up to snuff, and that’s partially because they’re still trying to keep them at department-store prices, which is just completely unfeasible in the current economy.

One of the first rules of selling is to not give your customer a chance to not spend their money. A casual buyer might make a causual purchase if they happen to run across something they sort of like. But, buying online takes a series of deliberate steps. "Accidental" finds online are still related to the deliberate purchase that somebody is making. Amazon is not likely to suggest action figures to somebody who normally does not even search for toys. And, casual buyers may not even know/remember that an action figure exists to be searched for.

I half pay attention to Marvel figures, and am never really sure what is coming out, and cannot always be troubled to check.

Indeed, I’ll admit it isn’t the same as walking into a store and being confronted with all available product. Motivating your customer base to form habits is one way around it (there’s no reliable way to know what or when new Figuarts are being released, so I’ve gotten in the habit of just checking AmiAmi every few days to see what’s coming in. They list all their new releases and pre-orders in a big glut on the front page as they become available, it’s not uncommon for me to impulse-order other things I see on the ‘shelf’ while I’m there.)

And, if they just (reasonably) assume that the thing they bought is representative of the standard figures, they are not likely to buy anything else.

Getting burned on something you were excited for can affect you on that forever. I was so massively unhappy with the initial four Jazwares Street Fighter figures that I immediately gave up on the entire line, and now instinctively pass over anything made by the company.

[Shockwave]

Then there's issues with companies being inconsistent, sometimes even within a single line. Case in point: Neca's God of War figures. The first release Kratos figures were great, with awesome articulation and fantastic detail, paint and accessories. Then, GoW II they were... little more than statues with virtually no articulation at all. I think the real failure with the Star Wars Black line (at least for the 3 3/4 inch line) is choice of characters. I've only bought one figure so far and that was only because it was the only OT character in the line that I didn't have yet. But, that one figure was pretty decent, good articulation, paint accessories, etc... and it was still only $10. This quality and price point used to be the standard and it's unfortunate to hear that this is no longer considered the "standard" figure. Putting out figures with a mere 5 points is such a huge step backward, almost to 1980's level spec and that's wrong. Things should get better as the get newer, not worse.

[BWprowl]

I think the real failure with the Star Wars Black line (at least for the 3 3/4 inch line) is choice of characters. I've only bought one figure so far and that was only because it was the only OT character in the line that I didn't have yet. But, that one figure was pretty decent, good articulation, paint accessories, etc... and it was still only $10. This quality and price point used to be the standard and it's unfortunate to hear that this is no longer considered the "standard" figure. Putting out figures with a mere 5 points is such a huge step backward, almost to 1980's level spec and that's wrong. Things should get better as the get newer, not worse.

I should probably specify at this point that I was primarily talking about the 6-inch SW Black figures, which are the ones getting the big push as 'Premium' figures. The 4-inch figures are basically the same SW figures we've always been getting, and are fine for it, to Hasbro's credit.

The 5 POA Saga Legends figures are just a budget line meant to provide cheaper buying options for kids, there's a similar Avengers line out alongside the Marvel Legends and Universe figures. They aren't the new 'standard' anymore than Legion/Legends or Titan Heroes are the new 'standard' for TF figures, and accusing them of somehow limiting the line when the regular, fully-articulated SW toys are still RIGHT THERE next to them isn't being entirely fair.

[Sparky Prime]

I dunno. 25-30 years ago, any forays to the toy section (or Toys R Us) generally consisted of me looking for toys from the tv show/comic/movie that I liked. I was prioritizing for media by the time I was 7 or so. There were a few exceptions. But, they were rare, and included gifts.

We can go round and round in anecdotal circles if we want, but can you honestly say you were an example of a typical child consumer at that point? Kids buy cool toys because toys look cool; no one specifically grabs a Nerf gun because it was in a tie-in cartoon. TFs, especially at that point in the franchise, were the same way, selling themselves on their own merits, with the media being supplemental. You (or at least I) went in for TF cartoons and comics because I had the toys and liked them and wanted to see them ‘in action’. I didn’t even know Beast Wars had a cartoon tie-in until many months into the toyline, when I already had plenty of the toys.

I think Dom makes a good point about how the media influences the toy sales. I remember when I was a kid, I was always more interested in the figures of characters (or versions of the characters) that actually appeared in the media. Things like 'Lightning Strike' Batman from TAS toyline for an example never interested me because I knew he'd never wear that costume in anything, I didn't see any point to a figure like that. Beast Wars was a bit different since so many of the toys were characters not in the show. I did get a few of those non-show figures because I thought they were cool, but primarily, my interest was focused on collecting the figures of the characters that were in the show.

[Shockwave]

I think the real failure with the Star Wars Black line (at least for the 3 3/4 inch line) is choice of characters. I've only bought one figure so far and that was only because it was the only OT character in the line that I didn't have yet. But, that one figure was pretty decent, good articulation, paint accessories, etc... and it was still only $10. This quality and price point used to be the standard and it's unfortunate to hear that this is no longer considered the "standard" figure. Putting out figures with a mere 5 points is such a huge step backward, almost to 1980's level spec and that's wrong. Things should get better as the get newer, not worse.

I should probably specify at this point that I was primarily talking about the 6-inch SW Black figures, which are the ones getting the big push as 'Premium' figures. The 4-inch figures are basically the same SW figures we've always been getting, and are fine for it, to Hasbro's credit.

The 5 POA Saga Legends figures are just a budget line meant to provide cheaper buying options for kids, there's a similar Avengers line out alongside the Marvel Legends and Universe figures. They aren't the new 'standard' anymore than Legion/Legends or Titan Heroes are the new 'standard' for TF figures, and accusing them of somehow limiting the line when the regular, fully-articulated SW toys are still RIGHT THERE next to them isn't being entirely fair.

Oh ok. I only have R2-D2 in that scale and was not impressed. The fact that they used a gimmick that was fail in the smaller version of that I found nigh unforgiveable and it pretty much soured me to the rest of the line in that scale. Maybe if I had started off with another character and this disappointment be limited to R2 by virtue being a droid. Maybe I'll get another one just to see what I think of a regular figure but it's not going to be high on my toy buying priority list.

As for the saga statues, my comment was obviously based on misunderstanding your comment, so I'll concede that point about them not being the standard, but I still think it's a huge step backward. Since Hasbro can do better, they should do better and it's especially irksome when the difference is right there on the peg next to each other.

I'm also with Sparky and Dom on the show accurate thing, which was especially bad during the 90's. Toyfare, back when it was in publication, would often joke about "Neon Night Attack Batman" and would apply that to other figures (an example would be Neon Night Attack Skeletor). I've always wanted the toys and the fiction to line up as closely as possible.

[BWprowl]

I think Dom makes a good point about how the media influences the toy sales. I remember when I was a kid, I was always more interested in the figures of characters (or versions of the characters) that actually appeared in the media. Things like 'Lightning Strike' Batman from TAS toyline for an example never interested me because I knew he'd never wear that costume in anything, I didn't see any point to a figure like that. Beast Wars was a bit different since so many of the toys were characters not in the show. I did get a few of those non-show figures because I thought they were cool, but primarily, my interest was focused on collecting the figures of the characters that were in the show.

That's stupid though, the toys came first, thus it should follow that the media is supplementary, acting as support to them, not the other way around (to say nothing of it being way easier for a kid to stumble upon the BW toys than to come across the show). When I was a kid, I was excited when the transitions to Transmetals and TM2s occurred in the show because I already had those toys and was eager to see them in action. When toys I had didn't appear in the show, that was the fault of the show, nothing to do with the toys being 'non-show' in their own (I bought them because they looked cool, I didn't need the show to tell me what I thought was cool). In fact, if the only point of the toys was to give people an option to buy the characters as seen in the show, then why did they even bother making the non-show characters? Again: The toys came first, so they can't have been made to capitalize on people wanting characters from the show, the toys exist to make you watch the show, which really just exists to provide context and fuel your imagination when you're playing with the toys.

The way you're putting it, no one would want to buy Nerf guns or non-licensed Lego sets just because there was no cartoon to go along with them, but that's obviously not true.

[Shockwave]

I don't think that's really a fair comparison. Nerf and Lego have different appeal than action figures. Figure lines are character driven, the others are... I don't really know how to put it, but it would be like saying no one would want a baseball because there's not tv show about a baseball. But there are tv shows about characters. Sometimes the toys come first and sometimes the fiction does (like in the case of Star Wars or Marvel). I do agree that in cases where the toys come first generally you would start with getting the cool toys and then watch the show with them doing stuff. That's very much how it was back in G1 when new toys would get released faster than the fiction could keep up. So you'd go buy a new Transformer and then wait for it to show up in the show and comics. Unless it was Skids who never showed up because fuck that guy. But I digress. BW was a bit different because, for me at least, watching the show is what got me interested in the toys. As such, the toys I wanted to get were the characters I saw doing stuff. Sometimes that would lead to getting other toys that were cool just because they were cool. But, for the most part, most people are going to want toys of guys they see on screen. That's why Blackarachnia goes for like $60-$100 while Bonecrusher goes for $6 after shipping. Because a lot of people saw BA doing stuff on tv and no one saw Bonecrusher doing anything.

[Sparky Prime]

That's stupid though, the toys came first, thus it should follow that the media is supplementary, acting as support to them, not the other way around (to say nothing of it being way easier for a kid to stumble upon the BW toys than to come across the show). When I was a kid, I was excited when the transitions to Transmetals and TM2s occurred in the show because I already had those toys and was eager to see them in action. When toys I had didn't appear in the show, that was the fault of the show, nothing to do with the toys being 'non-show' in their own (I bought them because they looked cool, I didn't need the show to tell me what I thought was cool). In fact, if the only point of the toys was to give people an option to buy the characters as seen in the show, then why did they even bother making the non-show characters? Again: The toys came first, so they can't have been made to capitalize on people wanting characters from the show, the toys exist to make you watch the show, which really just exists to provide context and fuel your imagination when you're playing with the toys.

What does it matter if the toys came first or the show does? Not every series has started out with the toys, sometimes the media comes first. And either way, it doesn't change the fact that the media can impact the sales of the toyline. After all, that was pretty much the reason why Hasbro wanted a cartoon/comic series for Transformers to begin with: to help sell the toys. There's a reason why some people jokingly refer to the cartoons as half-an-hour long commercials. The point is just that the show characters will probably sell a bit better because of their added publicity for being featured in the show. It generally adds more interest for those characters for the general audience. But that's not to say it's any fault of the show for not featuring all of the toys, or that those figures not featured in the show don't sell.

The way you're putting it, no one would want to buy Nerf guns or non-licensed Lego sets just because there was no cartoon to go along with them, but that's obviously not true.

Like Shockwave said, I don't think that's really a fair comparison given those have a totally different appeal to them then action figures do. Besides, I'm not saying that it's the cartoon is what sells the toys like you seem to be suggesting, I'm saying the cartoon helps to sell the toys, particularly of the characters that it features because it gives the audience added interest for those characters.

[BWprowl]

But, for the most part, most people are going to want toys of guys they see on screen. That's why Blackarachnia goes for like $60-$100 while Bonecrusher goes for $6 after shipping. Because a lot of people saw BA doing stuff on tv and no one saw Bonecrusher doing anything.

Well that's what *we* want now, because we're media-focused fanboys who focus on the franchise and the characters and the lore itself. But the *target audience*, the kids in the toy store who just want cool toys? The cartoon isn't going to matter to them, they might not even be aware of it, hence the toys being able to sell themselves.

That's the thing: If the point of the toys was to be sold by the show, then why does a toy like Bonecrusher even exist? Why were there entirely more non-show characters in the BW line than ones actually featured in the cartoon, with the line still performing quite well despite this supposedly-primary media hawking only a fraction of the product? We can ask these questions about any toyline: Yeah, we've all had a good laugh at Neon Night Attack Batman, but when you're done laughing, do you stop to consider why that toy even exists in the first place, why dozens of other Batman toys just like it also exist, and why they KEEP existing even in the Batman toylines of today? The companies aren't making them just for kicks, they're making fun, cool toys because fun, cool toys are what sell regardless of media support. Transformers is the same way, moreso because the figures themselves are so, so much more than just 'action figures', so that even a line like TFPrime where the media takes so much of a lead that the show models are designed first with no regard for the toys (causing them to have to be designed with cheats and fake kibble and the like) they still include plenty of toy-only characters like Rumble and most of the Predacons, as well as toyline-original vehicles and Beast Hunter upgrades. If the consumers were only going in for toys specifically based on the cartoon, then why is all of that shit even there, like it has been for over thirty years?

Like Shockwave said, I don't think that's really a fair comparison given those have a totally different appeal to them then action figures do.

Well I don't know about you, but I generally grab a Transformer for the same reason I pick up a Nerf gun or a DX Kamen Rider belt: Because it looks entertaining to play with.

[Shockwave]

Ok now I'm not even sure where you're going with this. It kind of sounds like you think Sparky and I were implying that hasbro should make the fiction first and the toys second which is not what we were saying at all. At least it's not what I was saying. I was just pointing out that figures of characters seen on tv and in comics are more desired than toys that aren't. Secondary market prices confirm that. Bonecrusher exists because BW is a toy line first and the show was based on that. But, the end result of that is that, now, years later, the characters that made it into the show are more popular and valuable than those that weren't. I think the way it should work, ideally, would be for the toys to be made first and then all of those characters show up in the fiction. Unfortunately, a lot of times, toy releases move much faster than the fiction can keep up and that's why you wind up with characters that have toys and nothing beyond that. As for Neon Night Attack Batman, I think you're giving toy companies too much credit. They make toys like this because there's very much a mentality in the toy industry that a toy has to have some goofy gimmick in order to sell to kids. Which is bullshit. And I think that's the point that Dom, Sparky and I are making is that even when we were kids, when we saw the '89 Batman film, we wanted to own Batman figures that looked like they did in that thing we saw, not Batman figures that look like they were rejects from a 1980's WHAM! music video. Action figures are unto themselves fun to play with and they don't need extra bullshit gimmicks to sell them. The sooner toy companies realize that, the happier everyone (kids, collectors, fans) will be.