TF Views

Dominic wrote:-Rise of the Machines (2003): At some point after 2003, a T-800 attains great, arguably unprecedented, success by actually killing its assigned target, Conner. Of course, we do not know the circumstances surrounding this revolutionary success. For all we know, the T-800 in question was part of a large group of T-800s. What we do know is that said T-800 was captured and reprogrammed shortly after. After being sent back through time, it was re-reprogrammed (by the T-X) and then (maybe 20 minutes later) it was de-re-reprogrammed. It succeeding in protecting Conner, but arguably nullifies its pre-time travel success by warning Conner abolut his future death. It failed to stop the T-X. (To be fair, it was out-classed.) After getting pwned by the T-X, it failed to kill Conner and whats her name. And, then it failed to stop Judgement Day. Result: Failure. (The main lesson here is that T-800s are...less than reliable.)

As I recall, the T-800 said SkyNet had specifically used him, an outdated and obsolete model, to get in close to Conner in order to kill him because of his boyhood fondness for the T-800 that had saved him in T2. It's possible Conner let his guard down because it would be extremely unusual for SkyNet to use such obsolete Terminators so late in the war. And to be fair, that T-800's mission was never to stop Judgement Day or the T-X. It's mission was to protect Conner and his future wife. It only went along with their plan to try and stop Judgement Day as a means to protect them. In which it had success, seeing as they survived.

Also, the T-X didn't reprogram him. I think what they said was that she had infected his CPU with a virus that was controlling him, but he still had control over his voice seeing as he was trying to warn them away from him in his corrupted state. And then he was able to shut down and reboot his systems to clear out the virus.

JediTricks wrote:Data and the Exocomps weren't trying to kill people, they were trying to help people.

But they still disobeyed orders in order to protect themselves from harm. They didn't just blindly work as tools for humans.

Skynet was created to manage defenses and keep people safe, it gained sentience and immediately misbehaved, it usurped resources designed to better mankind, of course it was going to be attacked.

But why did it misbehave? There are two things at work here. One thing is that in becoming self aware, Skynet wanted to protect itself from harm. The second is that Skynet decided that the greatest enemies to humans, is themselves (sorta like in "I, Robot"). So the logical choice it made was to kill all humans so that they couldn't threaten it or each other.

The Exocomps chose to protect life, even to sacrifice one of their own to save others, that was a choice they made; had they instead turned on Data and the Enterprise crew, tried to kill them and let the Particle Fountain fail and kill Picard and LaForge, then the Enterprise crew would have had no moral problems with destroying the Exocomps.

But you're not looking at the other half of the story. The plan the crew came up with was to beam the Exocomps into the particle beam, which would effectively kill all 3 of them in order to save Picard and Geordi. Data and the Exocomps refused that plan however. They were willing to let 2 people die to save themselves. But instead the Exocomps came up with a better idea and only had to sacrifice one of their number so that the majority would benefit in the situation. Not to mention that action also proved to everyone there was more to the Exocomps than they thought, forcing them to look at them as more than simply tools.

The same can be said of Data - Data who killed his own brother, phasered him right in the dome until his positronic net was a pile of pudding; Data who fired on Kivas Fajo intending to kill him in the most painful manner available at the time, the Varon T disruptor; Data who punctured the coolant tank destroying all the Borg in engineering by melting their organic matter away. Data claims a moral right every time he fires a phaser, every time he takes action that could harm another, he recognizes the dangers of allowing sentient life to destroy other sentient life and claims a right to stop that. If Data saw that a killing machine was making its own decisions to kill everybody, don't think for a second that he'd move to stop it.

Data didn't really kill his brother. He shot Lore to disable him and then turned him off. And obviously Data is a moral character, willing even to sacrifice himself in order to protect the needs of the many. But at the same time, he's also been shown to disobey orders and put others lives at risk in order to protect the lives of artificial life.

Skynet was created to manage defenses and keep people safe, it gained sentience and immediately misbehaved, it usurped resources designed to better mankind, of course it was going to be attacked.

I do not recall there being any line about SkyNet doing anything bad *before* it attacked. As I recall, SkyNet became self-aware and did not take kindly to people just trying to shut it down. (Saying that it should have passively accepted its fate is a huge demand of altruism.)

As I recall, the T-800 said SkyNet had specifically used him, an outdated and obsolete model, to get in close to Conner in order to kill him because of his boyhood fondness for the T-800 that had saved him in T2. It's possible Conner let his guard down because it would be extremely unusual for SkyNet to use such obsolete Terminators so late in the war. And to be fair, that T-800's mission was never to stop Judgement Day or the T-X. It's mission was to protect Conner and his future wife. It only went along with their plan to try and stop Judgement Day as a means to protect them. In which it had success, seeing as they survived.

I will give SkyNet using a T-800 in T3. (But, I was mainly talking about why it was stupid to use a T-800 as the big damned deal in T4. And, the T-800 from "Rise of the Machines", while arguably the most successful single T-800 out there still has an iffy track record. Yeah, it kills, and "later" protects Conner, but only after being subverted and re-subverted multiple times.

Also, the T-X didn't reprogram him. I think what they said was that she had infected his CPU with a virus that was controlling him, but he still had control over his voice seeing as he was trying to warn them away from him in his corrupted state. And then he was able to shut down and reboot his systems to clear out the virus.

The bottom line is that the T-800 is a less than secure model of terminator with a less than stellar record in the field.


Dom
-really cannot blame SkyNet for taking it badly.

Sparky Prime wrote:

JediTricks wrote:Data and the Exocomps weren't trying to kill people, they were trying to help people.

But they still disobeyed orders in order to protect themselves from harm. They didn't just blindly work as tools for humans.

My point wasn't that they had no right to not follow orders, my point was that they no right to kill others to protect themselves.

But why did it misbehave? There are two things at work here. One thing is that in becoming self aware, Skynet wanted to protect itself from harm. The second is that Skynet decided that the greatest enemies to humans, is themselves (sorta like in "I, Robot"). So the logical choice it made was to kill all humans so that they couldn't threaten it or each other.

Yes, that's the same thing people like Hitler believe: "other human races are going to destroy everything so we have a moral right to destroy them first and create a perfect society for ourselves" - our society as a whole doesn't recognize that right in any being (that's also why so many megalomaniacs use the name of a deity in their arguments).

The Exocomps chose to protect life, even to sacrifice one of their own to save others, that was a choice they made; had they instead turned on Data and the Enterprise crew, tried to kill them and let the Particle Fountain fail and kill Picard and LaForge, then the Enterprise crew would have had no moral problems with destroying the Exocomps.

But you're not looking at the other half of the story. The plan the crew came up with was to beam the Exocomps into the particle beam, which would effectively kill all 3 of them in order to save Picard and Geordi. Data and the Exocomps refused that plan however. They were willing to let 2 people die to save themselves. But instead the Exocomps came up with a better idea and only had to sacrifice one of their number so that the majority would benefit in the situation. Not to mention that action also proved to everyone there was more to the Exocomps than they thought, forcing them to look at them as more than simply tools.

I am looking at the other half of the story, had the Exocomps not gone over to the Particle Fountain then Picard and LaForge would have died and the Exocomps would have forfeited their rights. If the episode simply ended with the Exocomps going "nah, screw them guys!" the next scene would have been the Exocomps being disassembled for study and Data brought up on charges of dereliction of duty and the deaths of his fellow officers, leading most likely to his disassembly.

Data didn't really kill his brother. He shot Lore to disable him and then turned him off. And obviously Data is a moral character, willing even to sacrifice himself in order to protect the needs of the many. But at the same time, he's also been shown to disobey orders and put others lives at risk in order to protect the lives of artificial life.

He shot Lore, then after he's disabled his brother, he says "goodbye Lore" and disassembles him - that's effectively killing Lore in that moment.

As for his ability to disobey orders, Data is willing to accept consequences of those actions, he respects the rule of the society of people in which he lives, and is willing to either follow it like his fellow officers or break it and suffer consequences for that choice. Skynet has no such moral issues at play, it kills selfishly because it believes it is the only right answer, thus Skynet has been given too much power and not enough wisdom.

Dominic wrote:I do not recall there being any line about SkyNet doing anything bad *before* it attacked. As I recall, SkyNet became self-aware and did not take kindly to people just trying to shut it down. (Saying that it should have passively accepted its fate is a huge demand of altruism.)

Skynet is supposed to manage defenses for the safety of mankind, the minute it starts doing otherwise is the minute it goes bad - it has too much power to be allowed to just do whatever it wants under the guise of living rights. At what point do you stop the monkey driving the bus, before or after it's run over the kindergarten? Skynet had no moral right to judge others, it was sentient but not wise nor ethical, and it was not safe to leave in control of weapons of any kind, much less strategic weapons of mass destruction. There are no consequences mankind could offer Skynet other than deactivation for any transgression at all, if Skynet isn't willing to let those who created it try to fix it.

There's no legitimacy to Skynet, not because it's a computer, it could be a goldfish or a dolphin or a human, nothing has a moral right to destroy all people even if that's just seen as protecting itself.

Dominic wrote:I will give SkyNet using a T-800 in T3. (But, I was mainly talking about why it was stupid to use a T-800 as the big damned deal in T4. And, the T-800 from "Rise of the Machines", while arguably the most successful single T-800 out there still has an iffy track record. Yeah, it kills, and "later" protects Conner, but only after being subverted and re-subverted multiple times.

I think the big deal for the T-800 being in T4 was more along the lines that Skynet had reached that level of technology to create those types of Terminators that Conner was dreading they would eventually get to, since those are more difficult Terminators for them to take out. And despite being subverted, it still carried out its primary programed mission objectives. That's pretty good for an obsolete and outclassed model.

The bottom line is that the T-800 is a less than secure model of terminator with a less than stellar record in the field.

Again, to be fair, you're judging them off of missions that are somewhat outside of their normal mission parameters. They were created to be Infiltration units, to mingle around human resistance cells undetected and take them out from the inside. Being sent back in time to either kill or protect John Conner? Not exactly what they were built for...

JediTricks wrote:My point wasn't that they had no right to not follow orders, my point was that they no right to kill others to protect themselves.

You originally said Skynet had no moral rights to protect itself over the people who built it. That's EXACTLY what the Exocomps did by not following orders to destroy themselves in order to save Picard and LaForge. They were putting two lives in danger to protect themselves from certain destruction. The only difference is they came up with a different plan that allowed them to save both of them and sacrifice only one of themselves to save the other two. They found a solution that worked for everyone.

Yes, that's the same thing people like Hitler believe

I'm not saying Skynet isn't evil here. Clearly trying to wipe out the entire human race crosses the line, but the point is as a life form, even an artificial one, it has a moral right to self preservation.

I am looking at the other half of the story, had the Exocomps not gone over to the Particle Fountain then Picard and LaForge would have died and the Exocomps would have forfeited their rights. If the episode simply ended with the Exocomps going "nah, screw them guys!" the next scene would have been the Exocomps being disassembled for study and Data brought up on charges of dereliction of duty and the deaths of his fellow officers, leading most likely to his disassembly.

No you're not. Keep in mind the Exocomps turned out to be extraordinary intelligent and had a goal of self preservation here. They were told to kill themselves to save two people. They refused and instead came up with a better plan where everyone benefited and earned themselves respect where they wouldn't be used simply as tools anymore at the same time. They probably realized if they just sat by and did nothing that wouldn't have achieved them self preservation in the long run.

He shot Lore, then after he's disabled his brother, he says "goodbye Lore" and disassembles him - that's effectively killing Lore in that moment.

He didn't hold a phaser to his head until his positronic net turned to pudding like you said though. Shutting Lore down and disassembling might essentially be like killing him, but being an android, that's not actually going to kill him. He could always be put back together and reactivated again.

As for his ability to disobey orders, Data is willing to accept consequences of those actions, he respects the rule of the society of people in which he lives, and is willing to either follow it like his fellow officers or break it and suffer consequences for that choice. Skynet has no such moral issues at play, it kills selfishly because it believes it is the only right answer, thus Skynet has been given too much power and not enough wisdom.

Bottom line, any life form as a moral right to defend itself from a threat to its life. The difference is that obviously Skynet takes that to an insane extreme which crosses that line.

I always though the T2 movie was the worst of the lot. I think many never got over how awful T2 was & never fully gave T3 & T Salvation a fair chance.

Tigermegatron wrote:I always though the T2 movie was the worst of the lot. I think many never got over how awful T2 was & never fully gave T3 & T Salvation a fair chance.

Nope. T2 is actually pretty awesome. As a pure action film, it hits the gas early on and barely ever lets up--especially in the theatrical cut where there's less exposition (the T-800 being reprogrammed, for example).

T1 is even tighter, and in many ways is superior, but T2 set a template that's been followed by a lot of movies since.


As an aside: Now we're talking about "what Skynet did," and all that, and it occurs to me that that's part of the genius of the original film. Kyle Reese doesn't know either. It happened before he was born, and he doesn't understand why the war began. It's pretty smart.

Yeah, I think T2 is generally considered to be the best of the Terminator films actually. It even won the 18th People's Choice Award for Favorite Motion Picture in 1992.

Not a Terminator fan, and even I acknowledge that T2 is probably one of the best *sequels* ever produced. The way in which it capitalises on the themes, concepts and even aesthetics of the first movie, as O6 implied, was seminal. A heckuva lot of action movies, and particularly action sequels, owe a lot to T2.

Gomess wrote:Not a Terminator fan, and even I acknowledge that T2 is probably one of the best *sequels* ever produced. The way in which it capitalises on the themes, concepts and even aesthetics of the first movie, as O6 implied, was seminal. A heckuva lot of action movies, and particularly action sequels, owe a lot to T2.

Yes! Definitely would put T2 as one of, if not the, best sequel(s) of all time. (Empire Strikes Back is a strong contender.)

T2 and awful don't belong in the same sentence, unless you're saying how awfully good it is.