"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something." Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"
these reasons for why they don't WANT to do it are just a bunch of excuses for laziness on the writers' part; I UNDERSTAND WHY they would give those excuses, but they're still excuses. You want to say that the survivors are too much in hiding to give their testimonies, or they're being kept watch over by the government, then SHOW THAT. Oh, wait, I forgot, the current Timelines and Universe continuities have shown that THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN. So, even now, the writers are cockblocking us out of both a definitive answer to these continuity issues, and/or a definitive answer to why they CAN'T resolve the continuity issues, and are holding on to their precious subjectivity and mysticism for dear life. Great, just great. I'm sorry, but this is one thing I refuse to argue with: they CAN do it, and they're REFUSING to do it to keep the mysticism, and it's BULLCRAP.
The problem is that the more specific the writers get, the more likely they are to run afoul of some detail. And, their source material is so contrary that there is little incentive for them to be specific, or to adhere too slavishly to source material that was over a decade old at the time. And, in context, it does make sense for the TFs to be ignorant. People are ignorant of history.
Example: For all the talk of terrorism and counter-insurgency one hears, nobody talks about effective counter-insurgency methods used by countries that do not get along with the US. This is partly political. But, ignorance plays a role as well. Information is available, but people do not seek it out. (I have no clearance. But, I have read about the Seige at Hama without going too far out of my way. However, I have met people with opinions on counter-insurgency who never even heard of the event. And, others will discount it because it was a Syrian operation, not an American one. Willful ignorance and political expediancy trump availabilty and accuracy of information.
Exactly. The Maximals may have been ignorant of their history simply by virtue of being explorers, not historians (And I can definitely see guys like Rattrap and Cheetor being offered info on Great War events, only to shrug it off as something that didn't matter to them). But just because they didn't know some stuff, it doesn't mean that all information about the Great War was sealed up/lost to legend.
Seriously, I think the only stuff they say was sealed up was Starscream's records. Crap, now I have to go watch 'Posession' again...
I'm not convinced, but again, I'm not discounting your suggestions as good reasons.
My problem is mainly the air of mysticism and ignorance the writers were trying to convey in the show; it's clear they wanted to give a portrayal of the general BW populace as being more or less ignorant of most of their history, and gave various reasons for why, but then they brought in all this evidence that suggests they didn't HAVE to be that ignorant, thus shattering the suspension of disbelief they were asking of us, and then they go right back to having the mysticism again. It's really jarring, honestly, and part of the reason why I don't really buy any of the reasons given despite my understanding them; it's like if they portrayed Buffy and the Scoobies as being ignorant to how to kill vampires and demons, and then halfway through the series, Giles shows up to help, and we learn they KNEW about him, all along, though they give a convenient excuse for them not using him, because he kept on hiding away from them when they tried to contact him. Is it an understandable excuse? Yes, depending on how they use it; does it lessen the betrayal and confusion felt when you realize "Hey, why are they running around blindly and dimwittedly like they have been when they don't need to"? Absolutely not. You've pretty much been strung along into buying their line until BAM! Instant sucker punch to the groin with the sudden reveal.
And, again, there's the inconsistency of the Maximals banning all of this stuff while the Predacons have free access to it; yes, the Maximals would go ballistic if they knew about the G1 source of Protoform X, but they can be placated by their own government with lies like "It was for the good of the Transformer race" or something like that. Imagine how pissed off the PREDACONS would be if THEY learned about it; they'd use it as a rallying cry for a revolution, throwing it in the face of their overseers that the Maximals are corrupt and need to be taken down. So, it's like, one or the other, man, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Stop burning your candles at both ends, put back the wooden nickels, stop listening to the Weird Al song, and learn to be smarter about this, writers.
SynjoDeonecros wrote:And, again, there's the inconsistency of the Maximals banning all of this stuff while the Predacons have free access to it;
Do we really get a sense that the Maximals banned a lot of stuff from the Great War? Really the only thing I recall they ever said was banned was information about Starscream, no doubt as a direct result of the Protoform X experiment in order to keep the whole thing "hush hush". But as for all other information about their history, it seemed to me like the Maximals had free access. It could be the Predacons just seemed more knowledgeable about the history given they knew they were headed toward Earth and researched it beforehand (even Waspinator recognized the markings of Earth's moon), while the Maximals were in the dark about where/when they were through most of the show having just followed the Darksyde.
SynjoDeonecros wrote:And, again, there's the inconsistency of the Maximals banning all of this stuff while the Predacons have free access to it;
Do we really get a sense that the Maximals banned a lot of stuff from the Great War? Really the only thing I recall they ever said was banned was information about Starscream, no doubt as a direct result of the Protoform X experiment in order to keep the whole thing "hush hush". But as for all other information about their history, it seemed to me like the Maximals had free access. It could be the Predacons just seemed more knowledgeable about the history given they knew they were headed toward Earth and researched it beforehand (even Waspinator recognized the markings of Earth's moon), while the Maximals were in the dark about where/when they were through most of the show having just followed the Darksyde.
There was also the revelation that the Maximal High Command banned the entire Terran system, which - combined with the Starscream coverup - seemed to indicate that they WERE covering up quite a bit of past history. And that's why I say it's inconsistent for the Maximals to have that ignorance but not the Predacons; it's clear WHY the Maximal Elders wanted this information sealed from their own people, but why would they let the Predacons have access to it? Again, as I said, if the general Maximal populace found out about the Protoform X incident and the Starscream link to it, they'd be pissed off, but they could be placated by the Elders with some bullcrap line about it being for "the good of Cybertron" or something, but if the PREDACONS find out about it, they can use it as proof that the Elders are corrupt and as justification for rising up and going back to their conquering ways. It would seem more prudent to me to have the records sealed from the Predacons, if no one else. But you NEVER hear of ANY of these things being barred from the Predacons, ONLY the Maximals. Does that make any sense? Why keep this information from JUST your allies when it's your ENEMIES that you need to worry about getting a hold of it? It's bullcrap. Hell, NONE of the Maximals even KNEW what was on the Golden Disk, it being just some random historical artifact from the Council Archives that had no real relevance or significance to them, yet the Predacons seem to know full well the kind of information was on it, almost like the Elders prevented any deep investigation into its contents from their own faction, but - as always - let the Predacons, THE ENEMY THAT COULD USE WHAT'S ON IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE AGAINST THEM, have free reign. It makes no sense; it's clear they want to keep it hushed up for a reason, and those reasons are sound in theory, but they're sabotaging themselves by hushing it up from THE WRONG PEOPLE.
Actually, I can think of a very good reason that they would ban the Terran system. Not because they were covering up their history, but because, combined with Transwarp technology, it would be very easy for an enterprising Transformer to go back and screw with a very important part of Great War history. Like, uh, what happened in 'The Agenda'.
SynjoDeonecros wrote:There was also the revelation that the Maximal High Command banned the entire Terran system, which - combined with the Starscream coverup - seemed to indicate that they WERE covering up quite a bit of past history.
Making the Terran system isn't necessarily an indication the Maximal Elders were covering up history. As BWprowl said, that could have simply been the Maximals attempting to avoid anyone changing history with Transwarp drive. Or, it's also possible humanity finally got tired of the Transformers fighting on their planet and asked that they leave, resulting in the Maximal Elders banning travel there.
It would seem more prudent to me to have the records sealed from the Predacons, if no one else. But you NEVER hear of ANY of these things being barred from the Predacons, ONLY the Maximals
I'm sure the Maximals enforce some of their laws over the Predacons. We are given an indication from the Tripredacus Council that they do have to answer to the Maximals government. But the Maximals can't control everything and the Predacons are bound to have their own records.
Hell, NONE of the Maximals even KNEW what was on the Golden Disk, it being just some random historical artifact from the Council Archives that had no real relevance or significance to them, yet the Predacons seem to know full well the kind of information was on it
That's not entirely true. Optimus was aware the Golden Disk had the location of a large energon deposit on it, which may have been what initially got the Predacons attention. We don't know how much if anything was known about Megatron's secret message on the disk prior to that.
Making the Terran system isn't necessarily an indication the Maximal Elders were covering up history. As BWprowl said, that could have simply been the Maximals attempting to avoid anyone changing history with Transwarp drive. Or, it's also possible humanity finally got tired of the Transformers fighting on their planet and asked that they leave, resulting in the Maximal Elders banning travel there.
Good catch Sparky.
There is a difference between being allowed to go someplace, or even study it closely, and being allowed to know about it at all. (Try using Google Maps, even w/o the street view, in industrial centers. The images are often redacted.)
But, study was clearly allowed. Nobody blinked when Dinobot said he had studied *military* history in "Possession". It seemed that every assumed information was available. Rhinox could justify his ignorance on the subject by virtue of having studied engineering. Rattrap seemed to have work experience, and practical expertise. And, Cheetor was young enough that it would be almost acceptable, if frustrating, for him to be ignorant.
*sigh* You guys are STILL harping on the reasons why they WOULD NOT WANT to research, instead of why they COULDN'T research? What is your fixation on it? What, do you not recognize the difference?
Maybe if I used small, simple words, you'd finally be able to understand where I'm coming from. *ahem* "Would" is if they WANTED to learn the information; "Could" is if they were ABLE to learn the information. All of my research into the show and the subsequent comics all indicate that they COULD NOT learn it. COULD NOT, not WOULD NOT, as in EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO, they WERE UNABLE TO.
Let's take a look at the evidence: None of the Maximals knew what the Golden Disk was, outside of being a relic (and I have to say bull on Optimus knowing it lead to a cache of Energon, because if I remember correctly, he came to that conclusion AFTER they had crashed and discovered what Megatron could do with the Energon on the planet). Starscream's file was sealed, with the implication that more than that one file was shut down. Earth was declared off-limits with NO EXPLANATION GIVEN (to hell with your speculation, and mine, the simple fact is that there was no reason given for why it was outlawed to go there). And, most telling of all, until Ravage showed up, NO MENTION OF ANY AUTOBOT OR DECEPTICON SURVIVORS WAS MADE. For all intents and purposes, the evidence suggests that this ignorance of their history was NOT out of their UNWILLINGNESS to learn, but of their INABILITY to learn, due to the lack of info
With Ravage and the knowledge of all of the other survivors out there, we know now that they WERE ABLE to learn, if they wanted to, and that shatters what they were trying to establish. As such, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY WERE WILLING TO LEARN OR NOT, they WERE ABLE to learn, and THAT is the important thing, and the thing I'm arguing about, here. Again, it would be like Buffy and the gang fumbling around for half the series killing demons with no knowledge of how to do so beforehand, with the implication that they didn't HAVE a way of learning it, but then having Giles show up during the middle of season 4 with information about the demon being killed that episode, and Buffy saying "Oh, we know who you are; we've always known". It doesn't matter if we learn, later, that Giles was kept from helping out due to some Watcher rule, THE SIMPLE FACT THAT THE REST OF THE CAST KNEW OF HIM, AND COULD'VE GONE TO SEE HIM AT ANY TIME, DESTROYS THE IMPLICATION THAT THEY HAD NO ONE TO SEE ABOUT THIS BEFOREHAND. It doesn't MATTER if they WANTED to or not, the simple fact is that they COULD HAVE, when we were lead to believe that they COULDN'T. And THAT is what I'm arguing about.
And, again, ONLY THE MAXIMALS SEEM TO HAVE THIS RESTRICTION LAID OUT AGAINST THEM. Who did all the research about Starscream and gave most of the exposition about the Ark and the Great War? The Predacons. Who knew what the Golden Disk was all about? THE PREDACONS. Almost every single bit of exposition about their past continuity has ALWAYS come from the Predacons, further emphasizing that the Maximals COULD NOT learn anything about their own past. And when we hear about the restrictions put on that past, it's always done by the MAXIMAL ELDERS, and it's ALWAYS put ON THE MAXIMALS. Not only does that make no sense, since - again - most of the data the Elders were trying to seal would've been MORE detrimental in the Predacons' hands than in the Maximals', but it also means that the Maximals STILL HAD A WAY OF LEARNING, once again destroying the sense that they COULDN'T in a roundabout way. How hard would it have been for the Maximal Elders to flex their Big Brother status and confiscate the records the Predcons had? Seriously, you CANNOT tell me that the Maximals - with as paranoid as they seemed to be about this info getting out, and with the Predacon government smooching at their skidplates - would NOT insist on having ALL records sealed, Maximal AND Predacon.
I'm sorry, but I stand firm on this; nothing I've been able to research on this point on ANY of the wikis OR the shows or comics themselves seem to disprove this point; they tried to make the Maximals ignorant of their own past by giving us the impression that they HAD NO PHYSICAL WAY OF RESEARCHING IT, but not only failed to include the Predacons into that, but also showed us that they DID have a way of researching it with the survivors of the Great War. The reasons given for why the Maximals CHOSE not to are IRRELEVANT; they tried to show us that they COULDN'T, but then showed us that they COULD, and that is stupid storytelling, in my opinion.
Don't suppose it counts for anything that the show only gives us one confirmed survivor from G1, does it? I mean, that's hardly a lot of 'em. Yes, I know the comics and whatnot have shown others, but they're not the show, and didn't have Bob n' Larry writing 'em.
Yeah, I know, Starscream, too, but he was a ghost, and as such, can't really be called a survivor, can he?
Dominic wrote: too many people likely would have enjoyed it as....well a house-elf gang-bang.
