All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

The modern comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade. Oh wait, and now Skybound, wheee!
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Sparky Prime
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

JediTricks wrote:By that argument, you could say that a TF's spark is in his left toe and cut away everything else.
That isn't what my argument suggests at all. We've seen the Transformers can take a lot of physical damage and still survive. This is no secret. What I'm saying is one single shot, even to the head, is far from what we've seen it takes to kill Transformers.
And the whole headmaster-Hunter thing with Sunstreaker shows that their personalities are in their noggins, you take out a big chunk of that and just like a person, you kill them.
Again, the material contradicts that idea with the evidence of Scorponok having half of his head blown up, yet still very much still alive.
Yes, comic books (especially those based on toy lines) play fast and loose with death, but rarely are they so directly cheaty about it, they usually go for a much more convoluted cheat because the writers know that no audience is going to buy the character instantly surviving that sort of thing.
It's not as rare to be so "directly cheaty" with death in comics as you'd think. For a few examples, Peter Parker has died (twice!!) in the past few years, simply to shed his dead form and emerge with a few new powers for no real apparent reason. Which then subsequently all disappeared after making a deal with the devil to undo his marriage and save Aunt May, making both ordeals even more pointless. Looking at DC comics, Spoiler recently died in Batman having been beaten to death only for it to be revealed not very long later that she simply faked her death and somehow switched bodies with a girl who had overdosed. Not to mention DC's ultimate cheat of having Superboy Prime simply punch the "wall of continuity" that brought back Jason Todd.
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Dominic
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Citing one of the worst runs of "Spider Man" is not the best arguement.

Your whole case seems based on a "well AHM cannot do anything so I will mis-read it and deny a basic plot-point". Can you really deny McCarthy's intention was to have SW kill TC? And, again, why are you assuming the worst cliches for the genre and the specific franchise?



JT, AHM is well worth picking up. You want me to find you a compilation of the first 6 issues? Who told you it was "Shattered Glass"?

I would not say that Thundercracker had drive or vision. According to his character profile, it is arguably a lack of those things that lead him to be a Decepticon. (He needs something to believe in, but cannot come up with something better than Decepticon philosophy.)


As far as CoIE goes, it is not a question of liking Barry or Wally better as characters, but the importance of Barry's death and the precedent it was intended to set. I doubt any comic, including AHM, will every rival CoIE in importance. This is not to say that CoIE is the best comic ever. (It is not even close.) But, it was, and is, tremendously important for reasons beyond the "stuff wot happened" in its pages.


Dom
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Sparky Prime
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Dominic wrote:Citing one of the worst runs of "Spider Man" is not the best arguement.
It works as a good example of comic creators being extremely "cheaty" in terms of undoing things.
Your whole case seems based on a "well AHM cannot do anything so I will mis-read it and deny a basic plot-point". Can you really deny McCarthy's intention was to have SW kill TC? And, again, why are you assuming the worst cliches for the genre and the specific franchise?
Again, I'm hardly misreading it when the end of the scene is left so ambiguous. And you appear to be ignoring the fact that the writer himself when asked if Thundercracker is dead replied: ""His fate is now out of my hands..." which does indeed suggest it was McCarthy's intention to leave Thundercracker's fate undetermined for a future writer to decide if they want TC alive or not, and provided the perfect loop hole that would allow it either way. All the signs of this cliche are there, you seem to be the one that wants to deny it.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

It's moreover a hope of Dom's that TF doesn't *have* to abide by this cruddy rule. For the most part, IDW--being an indy publisher--is less likely to fall into the kinds of cruddy mistakes that the big two make on a day to day basis. They can (sort of) afford to make fans pissy, because they know fans will buy it, and buy it in droves, no matter what they do. IDW doesn't have that kind of power, and also Thundercracker isn't that much part of the status quo. Barring a few continuity errors (Bumper, for example) a dead guy usually stays dead.

That said, we don't have anything that unambiguously states Thundercracker Is Dead. It is probably McCarthy's intent that he's dead, though, and if not dead then at least severely crippled. Truthfully, seeing Thundercracker is a heavily damaged, but living, state will probably make for more interesting storytelling than him being a corpse in the ground.

As long as we see that Thundy has actually been 'hurt' by this shot and probably takes some time to recover (or be rebuilt or captured by humans or something) then I'm alright with him surviving. Now, if they cop out, and Skywarp "missed" or Thundy shows up with no explanation, then I'll be pissy.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

O6 nailed it. I really hope IDW does not go with the cliche of "well you never saw the body". Given the fact that AHM is written a bit more thoughtfully than average gives me hope that this is the case. I do not even want to see Thundercracker injured by alive, trapped in a lab. I want him to stay dead.

No, Thundercracker is not Barry Allen, nor is "All Hail Megatron" like "Crisis on Infinite Earths". But, it would be nice to see something actually stick.

I misread Sparky's example re: "One More Day". I agree, it was extremely cheaty, (and kinda sucked to boot). The fact that Marvel and DC are pretty much making a "thing" of bad comics is all the more reason to hope that IDW aims higher. DC has been pretty much making bad comics their theme in recent years. When you have characters acting as an authorial mouth-piece saying "well, he (Martian Manhunter) will probably be back", and "nothing means anything anymore, but keep reading this crap anyway because it is a story and it is inherently good" (Wonder Woman), and then having the most obnoxious characters speaking for fans (Blackhand complaining about death never sticking being the most recent example), that is a problem.

And, DC is taking a hit for their recent folly.

By the way, when did Bumper come back? I recall him dying in "Megatron: Origions", but not him showing up later.


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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:Given the fact that AHM is written a bit more thoughtfully than average gives me hope that this is the case.
More thoughtfully than average? To me, AHM is the biggest train wreck IDW has done with Transformers given the various continuity errors and lack of explanations, on top of terrible pacing. It could have been much more thought out. And given McCarthy's comment as to the fate of TC, that suggests to me they did indeed leave that cliche open to possibly use in the future.
-is buying "Blackest Night" for train-wreck value.
What are you talking about? Ever since the Sinestro Corps war, Green Lantern has been the best comic book out there and it has only been getting better as Blackest Night has approached. If you want a train wreck, look into Marvel's Ultimatum series, where they are literally destroying what was their best selling Ultimate Universe. Personally, I see most of Marvel's stories going rapidly down hill while DC has been stepping up lately with the best stories lately.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

AHM had ideas beyond "TF is kewl", which is more than I can say for 2/3 or so of IDW's stories, (and 90% of Furman's recent output). The continuity errors were, most likely, the result of an editorial directive to change directions because the books were not selling even after a block-buster movie. (Every shop-owner I talk to around Boston tells me that the books was not selling. And, only 1 was actively poisoning the well.) I am not sure about current sales. But, I can poke around a bit. And, "stuff what happens" errors can be fixed, and are forgivable provided they are not the result of trying to justify later fixes or simply writing for "rule of cool".


"Blackest Night" is not the multi-faceted parade of horribles that "Final Crisis was. But, "Final Crisis" was idea based, (even if the idea was bad), which gave it additional depth. "Blackest Night" is the first event after DC pretty much came out and said (with "Countdown" and "Final Crisis"), "yeah, we produce crap, and none of it matters, even the stuff we tell you matters is really just noise". Having read "Countdown" twice (bad idea, trust me), I am pretty sure that DC intended for that to be a train-wreck, as a piece of performance art about bad comics. "Countdown" actually gets incrementally worse, and is thematically consistent enough with "Final Crisis" that I have to assume the whole thing was planned.


I am pretty sure Marvel's sales have averaged a bit higher than DC's the last few years, but I could be mistaken. Either way, Marvel is generally a bit more honest than DC, though also a bit more crass.

The problem with "Ultimates" is that Marvel created a series of bastardized books. They wanted "new reader" friendly, and they went for "edgy sophistication" that would only appeal to long-time comic readers. The stories ultimately (heh, puns are fun) had little to say beyond "look how maturezors we is". And, after the intitial talk of "bold new directions", Marvel produced basic (if a bit "grittier") capes and tights books, often rehashing old stories in the process.


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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by 138 Scourge »

I will never understand why Dom insists on mainly buying comics that he knows he's gonna hate. Is it just because it makes for better blogging fodder?

Anyhoo, I haven't touched Green Lantern in about five or six years, because I hated "Rebirth" so much. "Yeah, Hal wasn't dead, he never even really turned evil, and all the signs of aging and interesting development on that character that you, Scourge, liked? Alien space bug." Maybe it's just me, but the story that undoes the bad 90's story shouldn't be dumber than the bad 90's story. But yeah, see, that experience tells me not to buy Green Lantern comics until Geoff Johns stops writing 'em.

Anyone needs me, I'll be over here reading "Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers", because it's awesome.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Much of it is just for blogging fodder. As much as I like books like AHM, they do not deliver the same thrill as "Countdown" did.

What gets me is the fact that so many main-line books are bad, and that DC seems *focused* on making bad books.

I agree with Scourge's take on "Rebirth". But, I could have forgiven "Rebirth" if DC had just come out and completely undone the 90s with "Infinite Crisis". If DC just erased all of "Emerald Twilight" from continuity, along with all of "Final Night" (at least Hal's sacrifice), that would have been one thing. But, in IC #7, they make a point of saying "Emerald Twilight" still counts.

But, DC wants to keep that oh so important story in context while avoiding any of the fall-out.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:AHM had ideas beyond "TF is kewl", which is more than I can say for 2/3 or so of IDW's stories, (and 90% of Furman's recent output).
What ideas? I really didn't see much of anything going on in this series before it goes back to the classic "giant robot toy death match". It started out with some promise but didn't follow up on any of it.
The continuity errors were, most likely, the result of an editorial directive to change directions because the books were not selling even after a block-buster movie.
Given these books are supposed to be in the same continuity as the previous stories, there is no excuse for there to be such errors. Besides that, it doesn't make sense for the editorial directive to blatantly ignore those errors only to go back with the Coda issues to try and fix it. More likely, they went with what ever McCarthy wrote, and when fans started to complain about the continuity errors, decided to try and fix it with Coda.
(Every shop-owner I talk to around Boston tells me that the books was not selling. And, only 1 was actively poisoning the well.) I am not sure about current sales. But, I can poke around a bit. And, "stuff what happens" errors can be fixed, and are forgivable provided they are not the result of trying to justify later fixes or simply writing for "rule of cool".
From the numbers I've seen according to Diamond, AHM really did not do any better than the previous series:

AHM #1 - 15,700, #2 - 13,356, #3 - 13,234, #4 - 12,835, #5 - 12,384, #6 - 11,841, #7 - 11,830, #8 - 11,729, #9 - 11,477, #10 - 12,182, #11 - 12,292, #12 - exact amount not yet known, estimated index ranking is 12.51

Now looking at Transformers Devastation to use as a basis for comparison:
#1 - 15,688, #2 - ???, #3 - 13,329, #4 - 13,594, #5 - 13,176, #6 - ???

I couldn't find the listing for Devastation 2 and 6, but this still gives you a general idea that the numbers didn't change all that much. Really if anything, Devastation actually has somewhat consistently higher numbers than AHM. And I don't see that "stuff what happens" errors are all that forgivable. Minor mistakes do happen, but these are much more than minor oversights.
"Blackest Night" is not the multi-faceted parade of horribles that "Final Crisis was. But, "Final Crisis" was idea based, (even if the idea was bad), which gave it additional depth.
So you're claiming Blackest Night has no ideas and therefore no depth? Clearly you haven't been following Green Lantern for very long then. The planning and ideas that have gone into this story and leading up to it has been sensational. They've actually been dropping hints and building up to it since Rebirth.
The problem with "Ultimates" is that Marvel created a series of bastardized books. They wanted "new reader" friendly, and they went for "edgy sophistication" that would only appeal to long-time comic readers. The stories ultimately (heh, puns are fun) had little to say beyond "look how maturezors we is". And, after the intitial talk of "bold new directions", Marvel produced basic (if a bit "grittier") capes and tights books, often rehashing old stories in the process.
Have you actually read any of the Ultimate titles? Ultimate Spider-Man was originally intended to be a stand alone story that retold his origins in a new modernized somewhat more realistic way as well as to interest new readers who didn't want to be bogged down with all the continuity of 616. It turned out to be a huge success though so they continued with the line and eventually branched out. Ultimate Spider-Man would go on to consistently out sell Amazing Spider-Man as Marvel's top selling book until Mark Bagley left the title. And it's been downhill ever since Jeph Loeb started destroying the Ultimate Universe. And it's hardly ever been a rehash of the 616 stories. None of the characters are exactly who or what they are in the 616 universe.
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