More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[JediTricks]

Roberts needs to work on ideas more than "teh feelz" though. He does good character moments. But, I am not sure how much he has had to say since "Last Stand of the Wreckers" (which he co-wrote with Roche). Like Bendis, he is readable. But, I tend to think of ideas as an extra in his work, rather than the focus.

You are not seeing past your prejudices. Where are we in the current story? Oh yeah, the crew is traveling through time to stop a madman who may be a double-agent or may be trying to change history for the perceived "betterment" of his people by killing Megatron, but may be underestimating the positive changes that the revolution of the Decepticons under Megatron created in Cybertronian society, much less ignoring that his mission may cause the very uprising he seeks to undermine. All about teh feelz is pretty fucking far afield from that. What was the past storyline? Oh, how a maniac "good guy" stole a planetoid and was using it to judge all who do not meet his insane definition of correctness. And in the interim there was a story about an entirely unrelated group of battling, transforming robots had infiltrated their ranks. Stories of faith, of loyalty, of duty, of discovery, of the spirit of adventure, that's what MTMTE has been. I deny you even one shred of this derision of yours, it's utter shit that falls into the blindest of fan opinions.

How so? I am not saying there is anything wrong with what he is doing. TF is a good book to build a career from. Roberts can cultivate readers from a pre-existing fan-base. And, hopefully, they follow him to other projects. Nothing wrong with that at all. (I think you are seeing me as more cynical than I am on this front.)

You used the word "just" in the context - Roberts is just building a portfolio and a fan-base - which suggests he has nothing but ulterior motives here, no investment or interest. By saying it that way, you can't argue it was cynical and derisive... well, you can try to argue that, but you'll fail.

Some things that are important and dramatic in real life don't make for good fiction. Yes, drama is built around conflict. But not all conflict in drama is interesting, and watching Transformers fight over what they do and don't have a right to turn into and how that used to affect their society millions of years ago just isn't very compelling. The fact that its' an old problem adds to that. It's not really relevant to modern day Transformer society. It's like me complaining about the social pecking order from when I was in high school. Yeah, it affected me back then and I can remember it, but it's long since in the past. It would make no sense to keep going back to that again and again.

First off, I'll refer you to my first paragraph in this post, I think it informs here as well.

Secondly, this isn't high school pecking order, this is the very foundation of prejudices and beliefs and disagreements that drive the Cybertronian people. People are killing each other, even martyring themselves, over these beliefs in these stories. Yeah, they're told from personal perspectives, but that doesn't undermine the overarching story they create. They define why Megatron rebelled, why Decepticons followed him to destroy, why some bots don't like others, why there's robobigotry and robokinship. It is their foundation, it is a warning of who they were and may become again. It helps define the differences between factions.

[andersonh1]

Secondly, this isn't high school pecking order, this is the very foundation of prejudices and beliefs and disagreements that drive the Cybertronian people. People are killing each other, even martyring themselves, over these beliefs in these stories. Yeah, they're told from personal perspectives, but that doesn't undermine the overarching story they create. They define why Megatron rebelled, why Decepticons followed him to destroy, why some bots don't like others, why there's robobigotry and robokinship. It is their foundation, it is a warning of who they were and may become again. It helps define the differences between factions.

My point isn't the severity, but the fact that it's no longer an issue. It's in the past. The war eradicated the old government and the old society. It was never an issue during all those years and all those series before Roberts, so why is this dead and buried bit of prejudice from Cybertron's past suddenly a problem again?

I know you want the level of storytelling and depth of the Transformers franchise to grow and expand, but it's killing my interest in IDW's take on it. Every time we peel away another layer of Cybertronian society it's evil racist governments, suicide clinics, forced mutilation and stripping out of emotions, discrimination based on what Transformers turned into... on and on it goes, and the whole thing gets uglier and uglier. Why am I supposed to enjoy this dark, twisted reflection of our own society? I used to want to delve into Cybertron's past, but now that we have and it's one depressing situation after another, I've changed my mind. I don't want to know. I'd rather just wonder. Because the answers are no fun at all, and that's why I read these books in the end. For fun and enjoyment. And it's hard to find these days, given the subject matter.

If I want to see racism and bigotry and all sorts of depressing things, I'll turn on the news. I'm reading books like Transformers to get away from all that for a few minutes, but I can't. Even there, it's all present and accounted for. I'm finding that I really resent that.

And then there's the moral relativism with regard to the planet-killing Decepticons. Anyone remember the six phase process by which these monsters, under Megatron's leadership, infiltrated and stripped planets of all resources while destroying the local population? Anyone remember how they killed over a billion human beings during All Hail Megatron? Ah, but they were all really just mostly decent guys caught up in a good cause gone bad. Please.

The more I think about this book, the more I dislike it. It's turned a fun franchise into something dark and dreary and depressing. At least it has for me.

[Sparky Prime]

My point isn't the severity, but the fact that it's no longer an issue. It's in the past. The war eradicated the old government and the old society. It was never an issue during all those years and all those series before Roberts, so why is this dead and buried bit of prejudice from Cybertron's past suddenly a problem again?

Just because it's in the past doesn't mean it isn't an issue, or at least isn't still relevant in moving foward. Sure it didn't matter during the war, but they were a bit busy just trying to survive, especially once Cybertron had become uninhabitable for them. Now however, they have the time to rebuild their society, and some of those old ways could creep back in if they aren't careful. That's the whole reason Megatron doesn't want to divulged his Spark type in MTMTE, because he feels it would invite the old prejudices. We as readers kinda need to see some of the pre-war Cybertron to get that context. Not to mention, Roberts is trying to make Megatron a sympathetic character here, it helps to show he had good reasons in starting the war, rather than just being evil for the sake of villainy.

[Dominic]

What was the past storyline? Oh, how a maniac "good guy" stole a planetoid and was using it to judge all who do not meet his insane definition of correctness. And in the interim there was a story about an entirely unrelated group of battling, transforming robots had infiltrated their ranks.

Stuff that happened after I dropped the book.

"More than Meets the Eye" has its moments. But, Roberts himself said "look forward to more feels" in the back-matter to the first post-"Dark Cybertron" issue.

You used the word "just" in the context - Roberts is just building a portfolio and a fan-base - which suggests he has nothing but ulterior motives here, no investment or interest. By saying it that way, you can't argue it was cynical and derisive... well, you can try to argue that, but you'll fail.

I do not see it as that bad. I should have phrased it in more speculative terms than you quoted above (as I do not have insider information). But, I would not see it as so bad if Roberts were building a portfolio for the sake of moving on. (Books like this are perfect to launch careers.)

It's in the past. The war eradicated the old government and the old society. It was never an issue during all those years and all those series before Roberts, so why is this dead and buried bit of prejudice from Cybertron's past suddenly a problem again?

For the most part, I think the problem is supposed to be the consequences of the past actions. While there may not be many functionists in the present, the damage that the old conflicts did is still a thing.

The more I think about this book, the more I dislike it. It's turned a fun franchise into something dark and dreary and depressing. At least it has for me.

On the other hand, fiction arguably works better as a thought experiment. What is a better "Superman" comic, "Red Son" or "Superman punches Lex Luthor....Again". Yes, Morrison did a great scene where Superman punched Luthor in "All Star Superman". But, that was unusual for being worth reading.

What about "Mastermen"? Would you really have rather had some Silver Age thing where Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters fought Nazis.....just like in the 70s?

I am not the biggest fan of Roberts' run. But, I would rather have good comics than nice comics.

And then there's the moral relativism with regard to the planet-killing Decepticons. Anyone remember the six phase process by which these monsters, under Megatron's leadership, infiltrated and stripped planets of all resources while destroying the local population? Anyone remember how they killed over a billion human beings during All Hail Megatron? Ah, but they were all really just mostly decent guys caught up in a good cause gone bad. Please.

Some of this is answered by the fact that "this is comics". Past a certain point, regardless of what your inner fanboy says, some stuff ain't relevant. At this point, I would say that nothing pre-Costa is actually relevant. It can, and will be, ignored. That is just how comics work. (How many times has the Scarlet Witch turned on the Avenbers? And, she is still on the team and all of her past lunacy is forgotten...until the next time to tries to murder everybody.) Similarly, how many MicroMasters have been showing up, despite the fact that they were origionall presented (by Furman) as being non-Cybertronian who eventually (as seen in Abnett's "Heart of Darkness") got turned in to Sweeps?

On page though, it does make sense. And, the moral greys are nothing new.

The suicide clinics and the implication about how the Decepticons went so bad make sense. And, they are necessary to explain how an entire faction would have descended that far in to barbarism.

The non-TFs killed are only going to factor in so much because....they ain't TFs. How much time do you spend worrying about member of other species? (I have personally heard more than one complaint about how I should "stand for people" the way I "stand for animals".) Even as an Autobot, Megatron still calculates the value of non-TFs as being lower. (He specifically said that he would risk himself for Cybertronians, but not non-Cybertronians, before another crew member called him on it.

IDW Autobots were willing to let Earth burn (as they did so many other planets) during "Escalation". Costa's run was the turning point for some characters. But, characters like Prowl, Optimus and Thundercracker were likely the exceptions more than the rule.

[JediTricks]

Secondly, this isn't high school pecking order, this is the very foundation of prejudices and beliefs and disagreements that drive the Cybertronian people. People are killing each other, even martyring themselves, over these beliefs in these stories. Yeah, they're told from personal perspectives, but that doesn't undermine the overarching story they create. They define why Megatron rebelled, why Decepticons followed him to destroy, why some bots don't like others, why there's robobigotry and robokinship. It is their foundation, it is a warning of who they were and may become again. It helps define the differences between factions.

My point isn't the severity, but the fact that it's no longer an issue. It's in the past. The war eradicated the old government and the old society. It was never an issue during all those years and all those series before Roberts, so why is this dead and buried bit of prejudice from Cybertron's past suddenly a problem again?

But it's not just in the past, it's foundational to their present and their future; it's part of each Cybertronian's identity and each reacts differently to that. These people are either descendants of the old society or were actually part of it. We are still fighting battles from hundreds of years ago here on Earth - hell, in our own society black people were a lower class and fought for equal rights in the generation just before yours and mine, women didn't get the vote until 2 generations before ours, these things still resonate. It's not Star Trek in TF, they haven't advanced that far ahead of the societal ills, they simply covered it up with war the way the US and Russia did during WWII, but once the war is over, those other issues crop back up.

I know you want the level of storytelling and depth of the Transformers franchise to grow and expand, but it's killing my interest in IDW's take on it. Every time we peel away another layer of Cybertronian society it's evil racist governments, suicide clinics, forced mutilation and stripping out of emotions, discrimination based on what Transformers turned into... on and on it goes, and the whole thing gets uglier and uglier. Why am I supposed to enjoy this dark, twisted reflection of our own society? I used to want to delve into Cybertron's past, but now that we have and it's one depressing situation after another, I've changed my mind. I don't want to know. I'd rather just wonder. Because the answers are no fun at all, and that's why I read these books in the end. For fun and enjoyment. And it's hard to find these days, given the subject matter.

Those things are in their past, but MTMTE takes a positive view of how they can moving forward from them, it's generally a very positive outlook.

What was the past storyline? Oh, how a maniac "good guy" stole a planetoid and was using it to judge all who do not meet his insane definition of correctness. And in the interim there was a story about an entirely unrelated group of battling, transforming robots had infiltrated their ranks.

Stuff that happened after I dropped the book.

No, that's all the stuff that ended before Dark Cybertron.

I do not see it as that bad. I should have phrased it in more speculative terms than you quoted above (as I do not have insider information). But, I would not see it as so bad if Roberts were building a portfolio for the sake of moving on. (Books like this are perfect to launch careers.)

The way you phrased it was saying it was the ONLY reason he was writing for TF, that's what I took umbrage with.

[Dominic]

I dropped the book well before "Dark Cybertron" and got back in with the cross-over.

[JediTricks]

I dropped the book well before "Dark Cybertron" and got back in with the cross-over.

Seriously? You dropped out when it was starting to culminate all its storylines? That's an odd one. You missed out.

[andersonh1]

Some of this is answered by the fact that "this is comics". Past a certain point, regardless of what your inner fanboy says, some stuff ain't relevant. At this point, I would say that nothing pre-Costa is actually relevant. It can, and will be, ignored.

You don't have to be a fanboy to expect stuff on the page to be adhered to. Given the relatively small pool of writers and relatively short time this universe has been in existence (about 9 years), there's no reason to start throwing stuff out.

Indeed, as Dark Cybertron proved, it's all fair game. They'll go all the way back to Spotlight Shockwave and the Dead Universe if needed to tell their story.

[Dominic]

"Dark Cybertron" also undid the end of Costa's run (Ironhide's vision of the future). And, Micromasters have been showing up,contrary to what Furman established in "Revelation".


IDW has had the TF license for not quite a decade now (giving it the longest consecutive run with the license). That is long enough for old stuff to be ignored.

[BWprowl]

And, Micromasters have been showing up,contrary to what Furman established in "Revelation".

Are the 'Micromasters' that have been showing up actual Micromasters, though, or are they just old Micromasters reinterpreted here as normal TFs? The 'Micromasters' from the end of Furman's run were a separate species, but I don't think any of them were identified as specific G1 Micromasters. It's the same way we've got Chromedome and Brainstorm hanging around, but they aren't Headmasters.