The Transformers (IDW, formerly "Robots in Disguise")

[BWprowl]

After watching Jazz still agonizing about killing a human a few issues back, it's a good reminder of the type of attitude I prefer in Autobots. Spike may well deserve retribution, but I'd rather see Prowl rise above that.

But, like, you already have Jazz for that characterization, along with like 90% of the Autobots. What's so wrong with having one with a different perspective in the mix? Villainous Autobots have been a thing since the Marvel UK comics, and as seen in stuff like AHM Coda and LSotW, Prowl does genuinely believe in the Autobot codes and morals, and rather does what he does out of a desire to propagate The Greater Good. In the hands of a competent writer, that makes for some fascinating stuff, and I just don't grasp how having him be a 'Beep Boop Save The Day' generic good guy is preferable to that, from a storytelling perspective.

I mean, do you also dislike seeing Thundercracker acting heroic? (Is he still a good guy? I'm obviously not keeping up)

Granted, anything would be better than the stagnant mess Barber's made of Prowl's current characterization, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[andersonh1]

I'm not sure how having Prowl value life, even Spike's life, makes him a "generic good guy". Absolutely I'd rather he held that attitude. And for that matter, he doesn't seem too concerned about all the people in Blackrock's base who are not Spike, but who will likely be injured or killed when Devastator smashes the place open to get at the enigma of combination.

[Dominic]

Gave the recent issue a quick flip-through.

I'm not sure how having Prowl value life, even Spike's life, makes him a "generic good guy". Absolutely I'd rather he held that attitude. And for that matter, he doesn't seem too concerned about all the people in Blackrock's base who are not Spike, but who will likely be injured or killed when Devastator smashes the place open to get at the enigma of combination.

Because the good guy buying in on sanctity of life is such a cliche' in comics that even calling out the cliche' has become cliche'.

If nothing else, maybe the main characters should have sophisticated enough ethics to recognize moral distinctions between individuals? Maybe some adversaries are worth killing while some are not?

I can detail my family tree back maybe 200 years, and it starts to get patchy well before then.

200 years is impressive.

Barber really piles on by having Blackrock describe his family history for thousands of years...

Damn, I am glad that I did not just pick this issue up on impulse. (And, I am not going to blame Hasbro or anyone other than Barber for the above plot-point.

Blackrock claims that this is how so many technological developments through history happened. I guess that would follow logically from the idea that it would allow Transformers minds to merge into a functioning entity along with their bodies, as opposed to the flawed combiners we've seen so far.

That is.....dumb. Barber is stumbling back in to the 70s with this.

Groups of people led to innovation because having a surplus of labour meant that some guys could devote time and energy to things not immediately related to survival. It was not foo-foo-ass, new-age, hive-mind bull-shittery.

And, most of the innovations discoveries before the late 1800s were made in relative solitude.

He needs him long enough to get inside Blackrock’s hidden bunker, and then he and the Constructicons form Devastator and attack the place, declaring Spike a target of opportunity.

I admit that this made me laugh.


Still happy that I dropped the book though.

[BWprowl]

I'm not sure how having Prowl value life, even Spike's life, makes him a "generic good guy". Absolutely I'd rather he held that attitude. And for that matter, he doesn't seem too concerned about all the people in Blackrock's base who are not Spike, but who will likely be injured or killed when Devastator smashes the place open to get at the enigma of combination.

How bad do you feel when you run over a squirrel on your way to work?

(Also, isn't Blackrock a villain in this piece, making all the dudes working in his base Bad Guys by association? Why is it okay to kill Bad Guys when they're robots but not when they're humans?)

Also, not to give the man-shaped-blob passing for a writer known as John Barber too much credit, but I'd say having Jazz agonize over killing a human in the same space as Prowl not giving it too much thought is a nice contrast of the two, a microcosm of their methods and attitudes towards maintaining the Autobot cause. Jazz is more about the means, while Prowl's firmly set on the ends.

[andersonh1]

Because the good guy buying in on sanctity of life is such a cliche' in comics that even calling out the cliche' has become cliche'.

If nothing else, maybe the main characters should have sophisticated enough ethics to recognize moral distinctions between individuals? Maybe some adversaries are worth killing while some are not?

I don't think Devastator is making much of a distinction about anyone in that base, from what I can tell. I guess any deaths are just "collateral damage" for the "greater good", right?

(Also, isn't Blackrock a villain in this piece, making all the dudes working in his base Bad Guys by association? Why is it okay to kill Bad Guys when they're robots but not when they're humans?)

I'm not sure he's been established as a villain. And in any case, even if he is a card carrying evil guyTM, I doubt everyone working for him is in on his nefarious plans and thus deserve instant bloody death.

Also, not to give the man-shaped-blob passing for a writer known as John Barber too much credit, but I'd say having Jazz agonize over killing a human in the same space as Prowl not giving it too much thought is a nice contrast of the two, a microcosm of their methods and attitudes towards maintaining the Autobot cause. Jazz is more about the means, while Prowl's firmly set on the ends.

Those "the ends justify the means" individuals usually end up doing some pretty reprehensible things in pursuit of their goals, don't they? Prowl's gotten away with a lot, and one of the better things Barber has written was having Prowl recognize that when he was under Bombshell's control no one could tell the difference. And now, on Earth, Galvatron can tell Arcee that Prowl murdered General Witwicky (when Galvatron actually did) and Arcee has no problem believing it. But Prowl is so wrapped up in "the big picture" that he seems unable to see just how far off the deep end he's gone toward becoming the thing he hates.

He hates Decepticons and their cause, but he's the core member of Devastator. And Prowl seems unable to grasp the irony.

[BWprowl]

I don't think Devastator is making much of a distinction about anyone in that base, from what I can tell. I guess any deaths are just "collateral damage" for the "greater good", right?

I mean, yeah? That is kind of actually Prowl's characterization.

These aren't heroes, you know? They're soldiers. In armies. I would guess that there isn't anywhere on the page where Barber is going "What Prowl is doing is super-awesome and appropriate and you should be emulating him in your own behavior!"

I mean, do you get bent out of shape in Star Wars each time the Rebels blow up a Death Star filled with dudes?

[andersonh1]

These aren't heroes, you know? They're soldiers. In armies.

No they're not. The war is over. Maybe they're still stuck in old patterns of behavior, but they aren't soldiers any more.

I'm trying to think of a military equivalent to what these guys are now and I really can't. They aren't acting like police either. They're pretty much armed gangs of thugs running around shooting at each other and fighting, with innocents being caught in the crossfire.

[BWprowl]

I'm trying to think of a military equivalent to what these guys are now and I really can't. They aren't acting like police either. They're pretty much armed gangs of thugs running around shooting at each other and fighting, with innocents being caught in the crossfire.

I could make a million snide remarks about actual militaries here, but instead I'll point out that this has pretty much always been what TFs are, to the point that "Get off our planet and quit screwing it up with your war!" is a recurring plot point in the franchise.

[andersonh1]

I think we've had this conversation about Prowl before. I'm getting major deja vu. Probably from before Barber's big reveal about Prowl being controlled by Bombshell.

[BWprowl]

Probably because it still comes down to my same question of "Why do you need Prowl to be a Good Guy Autobot character when you've already got a bajillion Good Guy Autobot characters?"

Also still kinda interested in answers to the questions I posed about your thoughts on Good Guy Thundercracker, and the Rebels blowing up Death Stars.