More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[andersonh1]

The idea that it's not important for Transformers to transform just seems a bizarre argument to try and make. Transformation from one mode to the other is the entire concept that the line is built around. To call transformation "trivial" or "unimportant" just makes no sense.

I really can't fault the writers when I've never really seen "disguise" to be a core concept, despite the theme song. I mean, when the Transformers originally took on Earth forms in G1... They were in stasis lock, and Teletraan 1 just went to work on its own with out really any explanation of why they needed to take on local forms, and then they immediately ran into some humans, never once pretending to just be ordinary vehicles. Heck, the only time I can recall a Transformer actually using their altmode as a disguise in G1 was Soundwave to trick Spike into taking him onto the Ark.

"Infiltration" made good use of alt modes as disguise. So did "Escalation", though Skywatch and the Machination knew enough to figure out who was real and who wasn't by that storyline. But yes, we have seen the disguse angle played up from time to time.

Even in the G1 cartoon, there was Soundwave hiding from Bumblebee only a few minutes into the first episode by turning into a lamppost or something. Masquerade has Autobots disguising themselves as Stunticons using vehicle modes. Disguise was a factor in "Armada" in quite a few episodes. " Transformers Prime" has the characters careful not to be seen in robot mode except to the few humans who are aware of them.

[Shockwave]

I'm not saying it's an unreasonable expectation.

Lol, yeah ya kind of are. This whole debate started because Prowl was complaining about not seeing Transformers actually transform in almost 3 years of issues and you replied with something along the lines of "Transformers doesn't have to have robots transforming in it." Yeah sure, for maybe one or two issues, but I think the real question here is where do you draw the line? At what point does not showing the title concept mean that you're no longer writing that property? Honestly, I think Prowl has a point. The core concept with this franchise has been absent from the comics for so long or been shown so sparingly that I can't help wondering why those stories had be told in this setting? If transformation wasn't part of those stories then why are they in TF and not some other book. Like this "Gotham Central" thing you and Prowl mentioned that I'd never heard of until this thread. Or, screw that, something just brand new entirely? Now, I'm not saying stories without it are bad necessarily, in fact, I've still been enjoying RID and MTMTE in spite of the lack of transforming, but I just think that a writer shouldn't get too far away from the concept of the property that they're writing for.

Now the one thing I will say for Roberts is that he is at least acknowledging and using the concept, even if he's not showing it and at least he's also explaining in continuity why he's not showing it. I'm not saying that's especially great, but at least he's not just forgetting that it's there.

[Dominic]

It is trivial in the sense that it does not automatically make fir good comics.

The disguise element falls apart pretty quickly after even a little scrutiny (which good comics would obligate). IDW's early run focused on how the disguises were flawed. This was mostly illustrated by virtue of the TFs not behaving according to their disguises. But, it would be an issue with various other types of observation (checking weight or density of a subject).


Why is it such a problem if the concept is lost or the property changes as long there are still good comics (or whatever) coming out of it?

[Shockwave]

It is trivial in the sense that it does not automatically make fir good comics.

Why is it such a problem if the concept is lost or the property changes as long there are still good comics (or whatever) coming out of it?

It's not trivial to expect a writer to adhere to or include the original premise of a given property. And, I would further argue that a story that can't run with a premise and maintain that consistency is not a good story and is therefore not good comics (or whatever). By extension a writer is not a good writer is he/she can't tell a good story while sticking to a certain premise or setting.

Also, you often talk about getting "good" comics like there's a set standard. There isn't. One man's crap is another man's gold. And this pretty much applies to everything. Your standard of good might not be the same as mine. In fact, I would actually say they aren't. You have often stated that as long as a comic can convey an idea that it's good. That standard isn't necessarily going to fly with me. Mostly because simply having an idea isn't going to make for good TRANSFORMERS comics. And when I read comics, that's what I'm looking for: For it to be good within that context and setting.

[BWprowl]

It is trivial in the sense that it does not automatically make fir good comics.

The disguise element falls apart pretty quickly after even a little scrutiny (which good comics would obligate). IDW's early run focused on how the disguises were flawed. This was mostly illustrated by virtue of the TFs not behaving according to their disguises. But, it would be an issue with various other types of observation (checking weight or density of a subject).

The 'disguise' aspect is one I'm less attached to than just the transformation itself. 'Beast Wars' integrated transformation well, including in battle scenes, for some very unique elements unlike what you could get in other 'Boys toys' cartoons. 'Beast Machines' made masterful use of transformation as a plot point on multiple levels. Both those shows were great, they didn't shirk the concept out of contempt and then scorn the audience for wanting it.

Why is it such a problem if the concept is lost or the property changes as long there are still good comics (or whatever) coming out of it?

Because the entire point of stories from different franchises and genres is so we can get entertainment with different elements and parameters? A good story can come out of literally anywhere, and I can get it from anywhere. It's why I try new comics, new shows, etc. But there are franchises I am a *fan* of that I come back to because I enjoy specific elements of them. Kamen Rider and Super Sentai tell some great stories, of varying types and ideas, but each installment ALSO includes kickass transformation scenes into nicely-designed suits for well-choreographed battles using fun-looking toys and silly special effects. If they excised that element, I'd probably leave the series, since that's something they offer that I can't get from, well, pretty much any story.

In the same way, a lot of my love of TF is in seeing the robots and their transformations demonstrated in interesting, engaging ways. Without that, I have less reason to engage the story, since there's less defining or 'special' about it then. Stories about civil wars, or featuring robots, or in the case of MTMTE, about lovable assholes snarking at each other in space, are not hard to come by in the macrocosm of fiction.

I like TFs as toys. I get them as those first, generally. So when I see a new Transformer appear in media, my first questions are immediately: "What does that one turn into? How does it work?" (The War Within delivered viscerally on this level with Figueroa's designs for it, it was wonderful). Isolating things somewhat, I think a big point I've been sticking to on MTMTE since its 'Second Season' began is Megatron: Autobot Megatron was THE concept they sold me on to give this series another chance, and part of that was this big, kickass new Autobot body he's got, and they STILL won't show us what he transforms into and it is *driving me fucking insane*. And not only will Roberts not show me what he transforms into, he goes and tells me what a monster I am for caring what he transforms into. Fuck you too, dude!

The other side of it is another bout of the ol' Crippling Fear Over The Line's Direction(TM), being that there are SO many people reading MTMTE who think this is what Transformers is 'supposed' to be, and that absolutely terrifies me. These are people who would want a new Brainstorm toy in the exact opposite of what we got: Instead of a cool transforming spaceship with some guns and a little detachable head-robot guy and a flip-out data readout, they'd want just a static, untransforming action figure with a briefcase accessory. A boring piece of shit like that? No, hell no. Those people have no idea why Transformers are really cool and they need to stay the hell away from my toyline.

[Sparky Prime]

"Infiltration" made good use of alt modes as disguise. So did "Escalation", though Skywatch and the Machination knew enough to figure out who was real and who wasn't by that storyline. But yes, we have seen the disguse angle played up from time to time.

Even in the G1 cartoon, there was Soundwave hiding from Bumblebee only a few minutes into the first episode by turning into a lamppost or something. Masquerade has Autobots disguising themselves as Stunticons using vehicle modes. Disguise was a factor in "Armada" in quite a few episodes. " Transformers Prime" has the characters careful not to be seen in robot mode except to the few humans who are aware of them.

The point was, it's never really been a "core concept" of the franchise as a whole. As you say, it's been used as an angle on a few occasions, but that's about it. Many Transformers series haven't even bothered with the idea of using the altmodes as disguises (Beast Wars and Animated as a couple examples).

Lol, yeah ya kind of are.

Not at all. I'm saying it's not the "end all, be all" of why people are interested in those characters or franchises. There are plenty of other factors why people enjoy them as well.

This whole debate started because Prowl was complaining about not seeing Transformers actually transform in almost 3 years of issues and you replied with something along the lines of "Transformers doesn't have to have robots transforming in it." Yeah sure, for maybe one or two issues, but I think the real question here is where do you draw the line?

I never said that it doesn't have to have transforming robots in it in the least. It is Transformers after all. Again, the point I was making what that it's not the whole reason people are reading Transformers, not strictly just to see robots transforming. Besides, it's not like they've never transformed in 3 years. We see them transform quite often in MTMTE actually, but for some reason it seems a lot of that is being overlooked.

[Shockwave]

Not at all.

Sure you are. My position is that transformation should be included in a comic titled "Transformers" and you're trying to argue against that. Unless you really aren't and maybe you're just arguing against me and not the point I'm making in which case, what the hell? So which of those two people do you wanna be?

I'm saying it's not the "end all, be all" of why people are interested in those characters or franchises. There are plenty of other factors why people enjoy them as well.

It is as far as what draws people to the franchise to begin with. The other stuff is what keeps them around. But that initial "Hey, check this shit out" factor is the robots transforming. Then people stay for the "Holy shit, not only do they transform, but they've actually got depth of character as well and it's a good story". But, it all starts with that core concept. That's why it's on all the promos and advertising and commercials and what not is because transformation is what Hasbro is selling. Period. It's the sole starting point. You can't look at a picture and get good characterization from promo art.

I never said that it doesn't have to have transforming robots in it in the least.

Dammit, I hate it when I have to go back 6 pages just to see who wrote what. But anyway, yeah, sorry it was actually Dom that said that. Whatever, my point about it still stands, regardless of who said it.

[Sparky Prime]

Sure you are. My position is that transformation should be included in a comic titled "Transformers" and you're trying to argue against that. Unless you really aren't and maybe you're just arguing against me and not the point I'm making in which case, what the hell? So which of those two people do you wanna be?

Where have I ever said that transformation shouldn't be included? I haven't. Once again, my position has ALWAYS been that it's not the end all, be all of the comic. Transformation is just something the Transformers can do, that doesn't make the characters who they are. And that's what seems to be the major focus of MTMTE, the characters themselves.

It is as far as what draws people to the franchise to begin with. The other stuff is what keeps them around. But that initial "Hey, check this shit out" factor is the robots transforming. Then people stay for the "Holy shit, not only do they transform, but they've actually got depth of character as well and it's a good story". But, it all starts with that core concept. That's why it's on all the promos and advertising and commercials and what not is because transformation is what Hasbro is selling. Period. It's the sole starting point. You can't look at a picture and get good characterization from promo art.

Transformation is a fun gimmick that is at the core of Transformers, but again, it's not all there is to it. You remember the toylines the Transformers were originally based on actually failed in Japan right? Transforming robots wasn't enough in that case. So why should it be now? Besides promo-art what else was on the boxes? Character bios. I mean, especially after all this time, who's going to look at Optimus Prime and just think "oh cool, a transforming truck"? No, they look at him and they say "oh cool, it's Optimus Prime". It's not just transformation Hasbro is selling, there's a reason why they developed a fiction to support the toyline in the first place.

Dammit, I hate it when I have to go back 6 pages just to see who wrote what. But anyway, yeah, sorry it was actually Dom that said that. Whatever, my point about it still stands, regardless of who said it.

Toldja that wasn't me. I'd agree with you that Transformers should transform, but again, it also isn't all there is to the franchise. There is a lot more to it than that, which a lot of people enjoy.

[Shockwave]

it also isn't all there is to the franchise. There is a lot more to it than that, which a lot of people enjoy.

Yeah and I enjoy the more to it too. But transformation again, is the core concept and what's in the title and what INITIALLY draws people in. Yes, there's more to it than that, but that's what people find AFTER they've been drawn in by the ORIGINAL CORE CONCEPT. The other stuff doesn't matter to this argument BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE DEBATING!!! Yes, there's more to it, but you constantly bringing that up is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed. The main point here is that, in a property called TRANSFORMERS, characters should frequently be seen turning into stuff. Period. That's all Prowl and I are saying. That one titular concept should be a constant element in any stories featuring these characters.

EDIT: Y'know, I can't help wondering if these epic ten page misunderstandings on one of the main reasons why we don't have more traffic here.

[Dominic]

I think a big point I've been sticking to on MTMTE since its 'Second Season' began is Megatron: Autobot Megatron was THE concept they sold me on to give this series another chance, and part of that was this big, kickass new Autobot body he's got, and they STILL won't show us what he transforms into and it is *driving me fucking insane*.

Megatron is almost certainly a tank. No great twist there. But, Roberts is not writing about Megatron turning in to a tank. He is writing about those loveable assholes in space.

These are people who would want a new Brainstorm toy in the exact opposite of what we got: Instead of a cool transforming spaceship with some guns and a little detachable head-robot guy and a flip-out data readout, they'd want just a static, untransforming action figure with a briefcase accessory.

Why not include the brief case though?

like TFs as toys. I get them as those first, generally.

I have not done that for years, decades even ("Cybetron" being the one exception, and I do not spare it much thought now).

I might grab a non-page/screen TF. But, I almost always prioritized for screen/page characters, even as a kid.