Universe2.0/Generations Review Thread

[Shockwave]

I think distribution factors into this as well. I mean, I get what you're saying about Jetfire and I seem to recall everyone being pretty happy with it too. But, I've also seen a lot of dislike for the new one too owing to the faux cockpit.

With Cosmos I think distribution plays a factor into that. I mean, the previous figure had such poor distribution that any one who had one was lucky to have gotten one at all. Lots of people, myself included, never even saw it at retail. So the idea of getting a new better one that might actually be available (I reserve judgement until I actually see one) probably adds to the hype. Plus, the new legends figures are actually a little bit bigger than the old ones. Compare new Starscream to the GDO version and you'll see that the new one definitely has a heftier feel to it. So, I can't help wondering if someone at Hasbro wasn't all like "Hey, we should rerelease Cosmos" and someone else said "Well we're redesigning that scale anyway, why not just make a new and better one?"

[JediTricks]

I'm with Dom on it, Megatron isn't half as satisfying as Swerve and Cosmos - there's too much fiddly business that really doesn't pay off well on Megs, joints that only sort of work right and sort of pull the figure apart, a mediocre cannon weapon, and scale issues at the head and hands, stuff that doesn't hold together as well as it should, stuff that doesn't look nice. I like the minicon with Megs a little better, but he's not as good a weapon either. Megs is arguably the best of the 2013 Generations Legends and he's fairly middling compared to Swerve and Cosmos IMO.

On some level, I can kinda see what you're talking about: Megs's legs are kinda iffy in their posability, and I wish his turret went together a bit more solidly in vehicle mode, but he's hardly the mess you describe him as.

I think one point that needs to be made is I haven't even seen Swerve and Cosmos on shelves yet, let alone been able to actually handle them, so it's kinda flying over my head as a concept how they could actually be so much better than Megatron and Starscream, who I really enjoyed. Especially since Swerve and Cosmos looked so unremarkable and conventional from pictures, so I'm having a hard time figuring what could be so great about them. Swerve is literally just a red truck who turns into a blocky, standard robot, what could possibly be so standout about that?

With Megs, it's funny you say that, he fell off my shelf today and I got a better look, he isn't terrible but he is the way I described him - you called him a "mess", not me, all I did was point out his shortcomings.

Swerve, let's stick with him because he's more similar to Megs in transformation. The thing with Swerve is that he's simpler, but far more satisfying. His body has that nice scale where the head isn't too small, the hands aren't too big, the arms and legs aren't too long or too short. His transformation isn't complex, it's just the right amount of "puzzle play" so that he's not made up of too many transformation compromises, and he doesn't de-transform easily or have floppy bits. He's not perfect by any means, but he's satisfying in a way that Megatron doesn't reach - Swerve lands the Minibot aesthetic and feel perfectly while containing personality and homages. Cosmos is even better for me because he's more fun looking, he also has the Minibot thing down (although he's not as pudgy as the G1 character).

When you think back on modern Minibot-type characters from the Classics aesthetic, who do you get?
- Powerglide, who is over-complicated and very large as a voyager.
- Bumblebee back in Classics '06 who has some of it but also is panel-y and a bit big for a Minibot.
- Beachcomber and the other '08 Legends who are really thin-walled and price-compromised to feeling more like a Happy Meal or Gumball Machine Toy than a true Minibot
- Seaspray who split the movie and classics aesthetic to be a fun toy but not much of a Minibot.
- Warpath who is absolutely a great figure, but very much a Deluxe.

So Cosmos and Swerve hit that sweet spot where they fill the void in the brand of little guys who don't feel like Happy Meal toys or Minicons - don't get me wrong, I like minicons, I even like the partner figures that came with all these Generations Legends figures (the best I own is Chop Shop, but he is a really silly weapon), but they don't really fit in well with deluxes and voyagers the way that Swerve and Cosmos do, they don't feel as "whole" a toy as these 2 new minibots.

I'm kind of blown away that a mere five years ago apparently doesn't count as 'modern' anymore. I mean for god's sake, I still think of the Classics toys as 'modern' figures of whatever characters they're homaging.

That's how it is though, this is a brand that has cycled a generation of kids already, twice or more really. But it's also the market has changed and the technology to deliver has changed. Compare Warpath to Classics Starscream or Bumblebee, do they really feel the same level of "modern" to you? They don't sport the same amount of articulation or design, they don't use their alt modes as effectively as the latter. Compare '07 modern Camaro Bumblebee to ROTF or DOTM Bumblebee, same thing in smaller doses. 5 years is a lot of water under the bridge for a toy brand. And the '08 Legends were never really part of the larger line, they were meant to augment it at retailers who didn't carry the bigger toys, so there is a lot of disparity between then and now.

It's not the amount of time that makes a figure modern, it's the quality.

I can't see the argument in terms of Cosmos; like JT said, that was FIVE years ago, and that toy was impossible to find. I suspect the entire reason Warpath was redone as a Deluxe was because he was equally difficult to find.

See, Warpath is a different story since it's being done at a completely different scale. No one's going to compare a Legends version of a character against a Deluxe version, it's nonsensical and unfair to both versions, it's the same story for, say, Legends vs Deluxe Trailcutter; they're aiming to do different things, so co-existing is fine. Hell, they even salvaged the Legends Warpath after the fact by repainting it into a decent Gutcruncher homage. But with making a character TWICE at the same scale, especially a nobody like Cosmos who it's frankly kind of amazing even got ONE new toy, it comes off as kind of incongruous. It's like, what did the team at Hasbro find so offensive about the original Legends Cosmos that they had to re-do it and correct it so soon after? I genuinely wonder.

Universe 2008 Legends and Generations 2014 Legends are unrelated lines, they share no pricepoint or design concept or marketing. Universe 2008's Legends were specifically designed not to sell as part of the brand, but to fill the brand in at alternate retailers who had neither space nor market for regular Transformers toys, so they were essentially playing the role of the Happy Meal toy - they were cheaper and more simplistic in order to get the Transformers brand into drug stores and those sorts of alternate retailers. It's definitely not meant to be the same scale. And if you think Cosmos is a nobody, keep in mind that he's well-remembered for being a nobody even by casual fans, due largely to the cartoon. They are apples and oranges.

And it would've been a different thing if I'd seen more personal preference like you bring up there, if I'd seen mostly people going "Oh this one's closer to the Skyfire design, I'll get it for that" or what have you. But instead, as soon as this...thing was revealed, all you fucking heard was about how much everyone apparently hated Classics Jetfire! How we'd apparently been suffering with this piss-poor attempt at the design for so long and only NOW were we getting the right version! Just pages and pages of people extolling the virtues of this new toy while simultaneously just shitting all over the old version, which I was still under the impression we were supposed to love! I didn't get this memo!

That's the problem with compromises, people live with them until they no longer have to, then they recognize that they don't like compromises. Classics Jetfire kinda sucks, I've always said it, but I've generally focused on what's good about him because there were no other alternatives... eventually enough people raised their voices to make Hasbro aware of that figure's shortcomings and now they're addressing it. This new toy also looks to have some notable compromises, but it looks promising and it's a character and a scale that a lot of folks want to see.

You shouldn't care so much about what other people think, only about what you think of Jetfire - if you are totally happy, save your money on this new one. But don't be surprised that others have different opinions, that's how the world works. You spend a lot of time in that post talking about what "we" like and what "we" think sucks now, but why are you focused on the "we" aspect instead of the "me" aspect of the conversation? I liked Classics Optimus for his time, but he was a product of the compromises brought about by that era of design, he's got the kibble chunks on the forearms and the low-detail vehicle rear end, he's got the weird guns and the bumper-butt. He's not "bad" now, but he's aging out, that figure no longer represents the best of what the brand can offer. Hell, I own both Masterpiece Optimus molds, they represent the character in vastly different ways, no one figure is perfect forever.

[Onslaught Six]

"Why? I thought we already had the perfect Jetfire that everyone loved?"

Five years can change a lot of opinions, and bring in a lot of new people to the hobby, or people who were out of it briefly when Classics happened.

For example, in retrospect, I hated ClaFire's head (both of them), his complete lack of robot mode paint, the way everyone posed him in this stupid "butterfly" configuration (didn't affect my own toy but you know) and I generally didn't like his scale. Mind you, the new Jetfire doesn't fix a lot of these problems, and that's why I'll be sticking to my fresh G1 Jetfire.

And like I said: Five years is a long time to mellow out on a toy. Toy reviews largely come out right as the toy does, and usually within a week or two of somebody buying a toy. Unless the toy is fundamentally shit, every toy review is mostly "This is shiny and new so I like it!"

I mean, are there any toys that you bought five years ago that you thought were the shit only to think they were merely shit a year or two later? I know Scourge and I both kind of go through this with Movie toys--when the movie's out and it's new, I want all of them. When it's been a year, they all go back in a box or on eBay. (This usually excludes non-Movie Movie Decepticons.) I thought Universe Galvatron was pretty alright when he came out, but I sold him last year because I absolutely hated him after a year or two. And there wasn't even a "better" Galvatron to "replace" him!

You shouldn't care so much about what other people think, only about what you think of Jetfire - if you are totally happy, save your money on this new one. But don't be surprised that others have different opinions, that's how the world works. You spend a lot of time in that post talking about what "we" like and what "we" think sucks now, but why are you focused on the "we" aspect instead of the "me" aspect of the conversation?

Yeah. Aren't you always siding with me when we argue that Dom should be reading comics in a vacuum where writers don't talk about their work? Or something?

[Shockwave]

Blitzwing needs to be redone. Seriously. Scourge's recent review of Sandstorm had me fiddling with Springer and subsequently Blitzy. Blitzy sucks. Seriously. There are places for everthing to lock together in all modes but none of the locking point line up properly. I get one tank tread locked but the damned jet wing is still sticking out, making any movement with the tank turret impossible. Then, as soon as I get the wing down the way it's supposed to, it pushes the treads beyond locking into where they should be. It's a frustrating mess of epic fail. I honestly have to wonder how the same company that puts out that bad ass Darth Vader with the three peice helmet and everything can years later put out this pile of plastic shit.

Edit: I got frustrated and disassembled the figure. At that point, I found a peice in the leg that I wasn't using that changes the whole thing. So now it's all locked together fine. But, the fact that I to disassemble to figure to see that is ridiculous.

[Shockwave]

You shouldn't care so much about what other people think, only about what you think of Jetfire - if you are totally happy, save your money on this new one. But don't be surprised that others have different opinions, that's how the world works. You spend a lot of time in that post talking about what "we" like and what "we" think sucks now, but why are you focused on the "we" aspect instead of the "me" aspect of the conversation?

Yeah. Aren't you always siding with me when we argue that Dom should be reading comics in a vacuum where writers don't talk about their work? Or something?

That's usually me. I would love to see him review a comic with absolutely no credits on it whatsoever.

[JediTricks]

Blitzwing needs to be redone. Seriously. Scourge's recent review of Sandstorm had me fiddling with Springer and subsequently Blitzy. Blitzy sucks. Seriously. There are places for everthing to lock together in all modes but none of the locking point line up properly. I get one tank tread locked but the damned jet wing is still sticking out, making any movement with the tank turret impossible. Then, as soon as I get the wing down the way it's supposed to, it pushes the treads beyond locking into where they should be. It's a frustrating mess of epic fail. I honestly have to wonder how the same company that puts out that bad ass Darth Vader with the three peice helmet and everything can years later put out this pile of plastic shit.

Edit: I got frustrated and disassembled the figure. At that point, I found a peice in the leg that I wasn't using that changes the whole thing. So now it's all locked together fine. But, the fact that I to disassemble to figure to see that is ridiculous.

Did you read the instructions? I found that while they aren't perfect, they do help a lot. You're blaming the figure for something you missed. I'm assuming you missed that the treads slide out or something like that.

[Shockwave]

Blitzwing needs to be redone. Seriously. Scourge's recent review of Sandstorm had me fiddling with Springer and subsequently Blitzy. Blitzy sucks. Seriously. There are places for everthing to lock together in all modes but none of the locking point line up properly. I get one tank tread locked but the damned jet wing is still sticking out, making any movement with the tank turret impossible. Then, as soon as I get the wing down the way it's supposed to, it pushes the treads beyond locking into where they should be. It's a frustrating mess of epic fail. I honestly have to wonder how the same company that puts out that bad ass Darth Vader with the three peice helmet and everything can years later put out this pile of plastic shit.

Edit: I got frustrated and disassembled the figure. At that point, I found a peice in the leg that I wasn't using that changes the whole thing. So now it's all locked together fine. But, the fact that I to disassemble to figure to see that is ridiculous.

Did you read the instructions? I found that while they aren't perfect, they do help a lot. You're blaming the figure for something you missed. I'm assuming you missed that the treads slide out or something like that.

That's exactly what I missed. I don't think I still have the instructions, but maybe I do. It still has other modes that don't lock together well (I do remember everyone bitching about the shoulders). You're right though, it was my own fault not catching that.

[JediTricks]

That's exactly what I missed. I don't think I still have the instructions, but maybe I do. It still has other modes that don't lock together well (I do remember everyone bitching about the shoulders). You're right though, it was my own fault not catching that.

The shoulders are a big fuckup, but the figure locks together better than it seems if you transform it properly, there are lock tabs that hold stuff together in all the modes that are easy to miss.

[Shockwave]

Whirl. I never had the original so I don't know how different this is from that. So far, I like this figure. I do like that he has the Shockwavesque one eye head, the claw hands I'm still not sure about. It's like they look too long or something. The figure has good poseability and good stability in robot mode. The legs are a bit weird. When properly transformed, they're more like chicken legs with a reverse knee joint. Again, good and stable, but it looks weird to me. I actually reversed them and think the legs look better that way. The only downside is that he kinda leans as a result of it, but that is sorta fixed with posing at the waist. Sorta. If you just want him standing straight there's no way to accomplish that without him looking like he's leaning. The box and the instructions show a Gerwalk, or, as the box puts it, "Heloped mode". It's basically copter mode without the legs transformed. The copter mode looks good and fully locks together and is solid. There's even a bit of autotransform for the back end of it, but it doesn't interfere with the rest of the transformation like it has on other figures, nor is it really a defining feature of the figure. The weapons. There's lots of them and there's lots of combinations that they can be assembled. Upside is that this lends to endless swapability and fiddling so that's also a good thing.

Ok, now here's the warning and it's a big one: Stickers. Yep. Stickers. And lots of 'em. Not like "Metroplex" amount of stickers, but ridiculous enough for a figure of this size that I immediately thought "What... the fuck?" when I saw the sticker sheet. I guess Hasbro thought they got away with it on Metro so they could with other figures too. so far I've put his logos on and that's it. I might not even bother with the rest.

Over all I like this figure. I would recommend it, they really did a good job designing it, it looks and functions good in both modes and it even looks fine without the stickers. Plus, the fact that he's voyager means that you can have him beat the crap out of Classics/Henkei Megatron. Start a way on your desk or bedroom or where ever you keep these! It's got an interesting transformation that's not overly complex but not riduclously simple with a weapons system that can keep you fiddling with it for years to come.

EDIT: That's it, I officially fucking hate stickers. This is bullshit. All of this detail should have been painted. I got like, eight stickers on Whirl before giving up. The red ones on the rotors are actually supposed to wrap AROUND the rotor blade multiple times! Now, these wouldn't bother me so much if they ACTUALLY FUCKING STICK!! They don't. They start peeling, and they're placed in areas of little to no detail so there's no clear area where they're supposed to go. So, screw it, I'm not putting the rest on. Honestly, he looks just fine without them.

[Onslaught Six]

I've had Whirl for something like a month now and I was like, "Wait, what stickers?" Sure enough, I dug out the instructions and there they were. Haven't attempted to put them on yet; gonna save that for tomorrow.