More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Dominic]

The 20th MP Optimus at some stores in the USA sold for around $60. The 25th MP Optimus depending on the USA store you bought it from cost anywhere from $69.99 to $80. Both the 20th & 25th MP Optimus toys were major shelf warmers,Most USA stores did mass clearance sales on both toys near the 50% price. Fans had plenty of chances to score a mass-clearance MP Optimus.

I scored mine for something like....$15. A buddy of mine picked one up for $20, marked it up for me. I gave him a retailer incentive (that I paid cover price for) of a Dreamwave TF book (back when that was a hot thing) and $12. Yeah. We ripped each other off.

When BW was airing, and The Agenda happened, nothing pissed me off more than the fact that I didn't have an Optimus Prime for BW Megs to kill.

Exactly. Because Optimus matters.

And what about the argument for making newer toys based on guys that already have perfectly fine toys?

You clearly have lower standards than I do if you think that Rattrap has ever had a good toy.

That’s what I’m complaining about here: These people don’t like Transformers Toys, they like Generation 1 and Optimus Prime and Jazz.

They want good/modern toys of those characters. But, again (as stated above) different standards....

What on earth is wrong with the original Armada Red Alert? That whole trilogy made a career out of toys that looked just like the show, and Red Alert didn’t even have a lot of the problems other Armada figures had (namely, crippled articulation).

It could do with better proportions. But, the toy itself is pretty good.

Again, what the heck is wrong with Classics Mirage? ‘Showing its age’ nothing, Hasbro’s ability to sculpt robots has not appreciably improved since that figure came out, you can stick it next to Universe Hound and RTS Perceptor and Generations Trailcutter and it looks fine. There’s hardly any room for improvement in articulation. Would you seriously pay another $12 and change just to get a Mirage with wrist swivels?

I want modern hands. And, again, we have never gotten a good G1 style Mirage. I want a Mirage that looks like Mirage did in early issues of the comic or the cartoon or "All Hail Megatron". (And, no, the 2006 figure does not look anything like G1 style Mirage.)

I do not need toys to enjoy the comics. But, damn, if Hasbro is making TF figures anyway, they may as well make toys that are like the comics.

And how interesting are they as toys compared to each other?
Jazz- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Mirage- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Wheeljack- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Prowl- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest

All 4 have different head sculpts and silhouettes. And, all 4 did important stuff at various points. Yeah, for some strange reason, I would rather have toys of those guys.

I am not playing with my toys. I put them on a shelf because "this is a toy of a guy who did something cool in a comic that I read".

God, see this? I love how as soon as a figure falls short of perfection it immediately plummets to ‘piss poor’ in your eyes. Subjective issues like the door-wings and arm-paint aside, Jazz’s biggest problems are a chest that doesn’t lock down and a somewhat lacking face-sculpt. It’s hardly perfect, but it’s not like it lacks major articulation, or falls apart in your hands or anything.

The botched head sculpt misses the point of Jazz. (Maybe if it looked like the IDW comics character, that sculpt would have worked. But, it does not work as it was made.)

As I’ve pointed out before though: Beast Wars shits all over the argument that you need to keep making the same guys, the same way to achieve success. Beast Wars was a completely reinvented Transformers line with almost nothing but new characters, and it succeeded spectacularly. Go back to that, do that again!

And, the new characters in BW did stuff. Who cares about Injector? Fucking nobody.

Transformers didn't used to be all about characters, that's why guys didn't even GET more than one toy until stuff like Pretenders and Action Masters rolled around. It used to be about ideas and toy concepts and really innovating and making cool new stuff. Switching over to being all about characters a select group of old people remember from a mediocre cartoon and a slightly better comic series has absolutely wrecked the brand, in my eyes.

Intellectual property and media have always been a huge part of "Transformers". Again, if the media and IP did not matter, we would be sitting here talking about "Go-Bots", not "Transformers".

There’s also the fact that how TF is handled by Hasbro now is largely how they handled GI Joe throughout its lifespan. And look at where GI Joe is now…

"GI Joe" also fell out of step with the times 20+ years ago. TF has managed to stay current with its IP and media.

[Shockwave]

MP Optimus is expensive. I managed to get one cheap on clearance back in '04. But, damn, $80+ for retail would have been painful.

Uh-uh, you don’t get to do that. You can’t say you want something to exist at a certain level of quality, then complain when your demanded near-perfection costs more money than you’re willing to pay. If you’re only forking over ten bucks for a toy, you have to accept that it isn’t going to do everything you want it to do. Better things cost more money, welcome to capitalism.

At this point, I have to think that maybe Dom and I arguing two different things. I never said I wanted something as superdetailed as an MP. Yeah, those are great, but that's like telling someone who wants a decent car to buy a Lexus or a BMW when they could instead buy a Beetle or a Honda for a fraction of the price. I don't need MP figures, all I want are figures produced with the same quality that is standard today. For me, Classics and Generations has pretty much filled that. And, that line has actually gotten a lot of characters out of it, some of whom we'd never expected to see in toy form at all.

You once called me out for numbering Jazz, Mirage, Wheeljack and Prowl among my favourites because they all looked the same. Putting aside the fact that all 4 are based on clearly distinctive and different control art, there is also the fact that all of them have done something important somewhere in the franchise.

And how interesting are they as toys compared to each other?
Jazz- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Mirage- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Wheeljack- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Prowl- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest

This is like if all your favorite GI Joe characters were black-suited commando ninjas who came with two swords. I’m sure they’re awesome dudes in the comics and cartoon, but fuck if you aren’t going to get bored with toys of them really fast.

Yeah because a police car and formula 1 racer are TOTALLY the same thing. Totally. Um, other than paint scheme, transformation, head sculpt, alt mode (yeah, I'm calling it: They're different) yeah you're right, they're totally the same. I mean, we're so far down the slippery slope here that you might as well just say "Well Transformers all the same because they're all just robots that turn into shit".

I do understand your comparison though which is largely why I've never collected GI Joe figures. Because it's based on the military and what do they wear in the military? Uniforms. And the point of uniforms is that everybody looks the same. Doens't really translate well into a toy line. At least the Cobra shit had a lot of variety to it. But even then it's largely army builders.

[BWprowl]

You clearly have lower standards than I do if you think that Rattrap has ever had a good toy.

And I think your standards are too ludicrously high, especially for a figure that was originally all of five dollars.

They want good/modern toys of those characters. But, again (as stated above) different standards...

Precisely. TF used to be just all about making cool toys of robots that transformed into lots of different things in new and exciting ways. Now? It’s all about making more new toys of Optimus and Bumblebee and Starscream. The former was wonderful, the latter sucks. That’s my whole argument.

I do not need toys to enjoy the comics. But, damn, if Hasbro is making TF figures anyway, they may as well make toys that are like the comics.

And I don’t need comics to enjoy the toys. And dammit, if Hasbro is going to have IDW producing TF comics anyway, they would do better to have them based on exciting, all-new lines of toys.

I am not playing with my toys. I put them on a shelf because "this is a toy of a guy who did something cool in a comic that I read".

Then why do you even NEED them as toys from the main toyline? Why even bother with articulation, gimmicks, or even transformation? You could easily make do with PVCs, or even cardboard cutouts.

Transformers are amazing toys precisely because they can be so much more than A Toy Of A Guy From A Comic.

And, the new characters in BW did stuff. Who cares about Injector? Fucking nobody.

And yet BW was still successful. Of course the new characters will need to do stuff, this is why Hasbro commissions comics and cartoons to be made of them in the first place: We all know that media exists to act as an advertisement for the toys. But now that media, and the toys it’s selling, all orbits around a group of remade, redundant characters and designs rather than anything ground-breaking or innovative. Some reason Barber and Roberts couldn’t write their comics around a new TF line from Hasbro that didn’t have Autobots and Decepticons and Bumblebee and Prowl and vehicle modes? Why did TFPrime have to be about a squad of Autobots led by Optimus Prime fighting Megatron on Earth *again*? Hasbro could’ve gone fucking anywhere with the toyline, just like they did repeatedly in the 90’s, and the supporting fiction could still have been just as (debatably) ‘good’ as it was, and would’ve lent just as much context to the characters involved, regardless of who they were or what they turned into.

Intellectual property and media have always been a huge part of "Transformers". Again, if the media and IP did not matter, we would be sitting here talking about "Go-Bots", not "Transformers".

And yet Hasbro had no problem mostly ignoring the original incarnation of that IP, and mostly going forward with things, for a very long time. Then Classics came along in 2006, and they decided that was easier, for whatever reason.

"GI Joe" also fell out of step with the times 20+ years ago. TF has managed to stay current with its IP and media.

I’m not sure how continuously revisiting and remaking the same crowd of guys over and over (just like GI Joe, hmmm…) could be considered ‘current’.

Fifteen years ago, a viable question for Hasbro reps at a convention or something would have been “What will the next Transformers turn into? How will they work?”. Now? It’s mostly “When will you get around to making another toy of character-X?” Do you not see the problem with this?

It’s kinda like if LEGO just stopped making all the different sets and themes and so forth that they do now, and instead focused on just continuously putting out slightly updated and tweaked versions of well-known City sets from thirty years ago, and nothing else.

I mean, we're so far down the slippery slope here that you might as well just say "Well Transformers all the same because they're all just robots that turn into shit".

That kinda is what I'm trying to argue here though: Transformers have become too same-y and repetetive. I badly miss the annual reinventions and innovations. Even BW only stuck with Reaslistic Beasts for a year or two before jumping over into Transmetals and Fuzors.

[Dominic]

Then why do you even NEED them as toys from the main toyline? Why even bother with articulation, gimmicks, or even transformation? You could easily make do with PVCs, or even cardboard cutouts.

I was happy with the PVC figures a decade ago actually. But, I am only going to buy *good* toys that look like the characters I like. Why would I waste money or space on cut-outs?

I’m not sure how continuously revisiting and remaking the same crowd of guys over and over (just like GI Joe, hmmm…) could be considered ‘current’.

What I meant is that, aside from a brief window a decade ago, the military-adventure imagery of "GI Joe" has been out of fashion. Robots are still fashionable.

[BWprowl]

I was happy with the PVC figures a decade ago actually. But, I am only going to buy *good* toys that look like the characters I like. Why would I waste money or space on cut-outs?

Because you aren't *doing* anything with them. The toy, for you, doesn't need articulation or transformation functionality to be 'good' at what you need it to do, it just needs to sit on your shelf and Look Like That Guy. Why factor stuff like posability or transformation complexity (or laziness in transformations with facade parts), when those things aren't instrumental in how you enjoy the toys at all?

What I meant is that, aside from a brief window a decade ago, the military-adventure imagery of "GI Joe" has been out of fashion. Robots are still fashionable.

the military-adventure imagery of "GI Joe" has been out of fashion

military-adventure imagery...out of fashion

Call
Of
Duty

The fact that Hasbro can't sell a line of army men in a cultural climate where every nine-year-old in the country is lining up outside Gamestop at midnight to get the latest Cawadooty is a testament to how badly they've failed with that line.

[Dominic]

Because you aren't *doing* anything with them. The toy, for you, doesn't need articulation or transformation functionality to be 'good' at what you need it to do, it just needs to sit on your shelf and Look Like That Guy. Why factor stuff like posability or transformation complexity (or laziness in transformations with facade parts), when those things aren't instrumental in how you enjoy the toys at all?

The toy needs to have enough articulation to be posed well. I will send a picture of one of my displays. Honey Bear has noted that I used to turn heads/waists just on principle. I have curbed that. But, I sill like to use joints to keep the figures from looking too stiff.

Similarly, I do enjoy TFs for fiddle value as well. But, that is secondary to getting a good figure of a character that matters. Things like facade parts are just too damned lazy for me to tolerate on anything made after 2000.

The fact that Hasbro can't sell a line of army men in a cultural climate where every nine-year-old in the country is lining up outside Gamestop at midnight to get the latest Cawadooty is a testament to how badly they've failed with that line.

The niche market that likes "Halo" or "Call of Duty" is not likely to be buying toys as a regular thing. They are likely to think that toys, "GI Joe" in particular, are "gay". My friend's little bro grew up with "Halo" (and kicked my ass at it). He did not much bother with toys. He had the game. He then graduated to paintball and actual target shooting. (And, really, between paintball and target shooting, why the fuck does he need toys to vicariously scratch that itch?)

The sub-set of people who like those games and like toys will just buy "Halo" figures.

"Halo" and "Call of Duty" are games that even non-gamers (such as myself) know about and recognize. "GI Joe" is a franchise that spent years catering to backwards looking fans (because, unlike TF, kids were not buying in) and is seen as.....what? Lessee, the best media for "GI Joe" is the secondary "Cobra Files" comic. Joe fans like it. Comic fans might pick it up. But, most people do not even know it exists.

The highest profile Joe media are movies that fail at the box office and related adaptations. Oh, and maybe some people caught the really bad "Resolute" OVA a few years back.

"GI Joe" has had an image problem. Some people see it as trivializing war. Many of those people will object to "warfare and entertainment" on principle. People who like "warfare as entertainment" are not going to bother with Joe because they remember the old cartoon and have plenty of other options that (objectively) make more sense to checking to see how good "Cobra Files" is.

How many of the people above are going to buy "GI Joe" for their kids who probably only associate "GI Joe" with a bad movie? Parents/grandparents/whatever try to buy kids toys that the kids might actually want and enjoy. (And that is assuming that the parents do not find Joes objectionable for the reasons described above.)

[Shockwave]

I've thought toys should get games for years now. If Hasbro was really smart, they would just farm that out and cross them over with the major video game franchises. Imagine GI Joe: Call of Duty. Or World of Warcraft: Equestria expansion pack.

[Tigermegatron]

I've thought toys should get games for years now. If Hasbro was really smart, they would just farm that out and cross them over with the major video game franchises. Imagine GI Joe: Call of Duty. Or World of Warcraft: Equestria expansion pack.

A Skylanders type Transformers game might be somewhat successful. I think I saw a commericial a few days ago for a Rescue bots type game.

Generations or TF4 or WFC/FOC/? type skylanders video game with accompanying toys. Even if the toys are simplistic legends or basics or pvcs or robot heroes rubber statutes---> This would at the very least get the kids who play video games into the other TF toy lines.

Takara's web diver tried this a decade+ ago. It failed due to the Interactive technology not being their yet. it also failed due to the toys & game console being super exspensive. the toys also needed to have less complicated, with more simplistic transformations

[Tigermegatron]

I was happy with the PVC figures a decade ago actually. But, I am only going to buy *good* toys that look like the characters I like. Why would I waste money or space on cut-outs?

Same here,I could care less about being a completist. I could care less about buying rare repaints,rare convention exclusives,Rare store exclusives. If the mold doesn't meet my preferences,Then I simply won't buy it. if I wanted solid investment,I'd buy gold,Silver or US Bonds.

The reason I don't buy any super tiny TF toys is because these toys Hasbro does tons of short cuts,budget cuts,thin plastic,Less parts,etc...

I'll only buy a TF toy if I really like the mold.

I don't need dozens of repeative homages from Hasbro current core cast. One or 2 is enough for me.

In 2011,I had no problem just buying Two DOTM toys,Which were Leader sized Sentinel Prime & Leader sized Ironhide. The rest I view as awful & didn't want to buy any of them.

What I meant is that, aside from a brief window a decade ago, the military-adventure imagery of "GI Joe" has been out of fashion. Robots are still fashionable.

I guess it's hard to predict the toy market these days. With all the wars going on that the USA is involved in with the middle east,These army toys should be popular in america right now. ----> I BLAME the un-realistic approach Hasbro often takes with the Main G.I Joe toy line that's accompanied by a media cartoon/movie. Those overly eccentric awful 1980's generic cobras villians is what ruins any success this line has.

Hasbro should try a few G.I Joe toy lines with accompanying cartoon media wirthout the bad guys cobras. Maybe try a rescue heroes type G.I Joe cartoon aimed at toddlers. Where a group of Joes go traveling around in the cartoon series helping out civilians in desperate need.

Robots are still fashionable.

Right now this is the tech age,so robots fit right into this. Also most of those asian/oriental countries make up as huge percentage of robot toy sales world wide.

I think Hasbro & Takara has done a much better job at marketing the TF brand & a much inferior job at marketing the G.I Joe brand.

[JediTricks]

Bought and read #22 last night, a little disappointed that MTMTE has forgotten about Drift until now. A fun issue, a little basic and densely told, not really the nail on the series I was expecting, but alright. But who sent the message back in time to the launch? Did I miss that somehow?

I read this week's issue.

Not bad over-all. It definitely reads like the end of the run. (If this book comes through "Dark Cybertron" in terms of numbering and title, I would not expect it to be the same direction and tone. Such is the way of things.)

I'm genuinely amazed you of all people liked it, given that the whole point of the issue, stated several times, was that actual story progression isn't fun, closure is stupid, and that Roberts wants to drag this out as long as possible just for kicks.

I mean, that part where the Circle guys are berating Skids over the 'plot' of the movie, talking about how they just meander about, having conversations that are only interesting to them, wasting time on minutae and pointless details? That's been my main complaint from like, day one! This is that thing Roberts has done a few times already, where he acknowleges and points out flaws in his storytelling within the fiction itself, showing that he KNOWS these issues are there, and does so in a way that makes it clear he has no intention of fixing them, because...good enough, I guess? This is the last straw, I think, since this time the problem he's saying he doesn't care about fixing is so central to the issues I take with the book that I can't really overlook it. The 'The End' at the end of this run/arc/whatever reads more like a 'Who Cares?' in this case.

MTMTE has some terrific ideas, and Roberts really shows off his abilities in some areas (I absolutely loved the whole Ultra Magnus thing, for what it's worth), but man is it not worth wading through all his self-indulgent bullshit to get to (I dare make comparisons to Miyazaki). Having already dropped RID, and with this whole shebang going into a big stupid crossover event that's also a blatant new-toy commercial starting next month, I think I'm just done with IDW's TF universe at this point. I'll ride out ReG1 for as long as I can recall whatever the hell is going on in that book, and then I'll probably just be out of TF comics for a while.

What's it called when a franchise in general is still something you think is super-cool, but absolutely no iteration of it across any current media appeals to you? God I just want TF to run out of steam and hibernate for a couple years.

The Circle is speaking for fans like you, but there's a coda after that, that the journey is important, that the personalities that exist within it matter, they are a dichotomy to that society as a whole and their value on this mission is to live their lives, not just to exist in exciting adventure moments that build to a huge conclusion. Transformers has existed in the "adventure movie moments" realm for so long that the characters only feel like cliches most of the time, MTMTE 22 is in essence arguing for the story of who these people are after the battle's over and the war is won. RID used to be about that too in a different way, about how factions create their own problems, but now it's just Shockwave and Jhiaxus and the Ores and all these silly comic book cliches.

What toys is "Dark Cybertron" going to push? Hasbro seems content to let the "Prime" books handle that. (And, those books are still pretty good.)

Pretty much every deluxe and legends Generations figure for the next year is going to appear in Dark Cybertron, that's part of what's going on.

I have Waspinator. He matches up with the show fine, as well as guys like Classics Prime or Universe Prowl are good toys of the G1 characters, and he came out over ten years earlier.

OH BULLSHIT! I'm sorry, I've been trying to stay mainly out of that conversation you guys are having, but come ON! Peaugh's review of Generations Waspinator, here's the timestamp to the BW 10th anniversary one next to the new one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUt6y ... page#t=572
There's no pretense where BW Waspinator mold is anything but simplistic and mediocre, it's got weak sculpting, awful proportions, and comes up short compared to its CGI show model. Which one of those looks more like the character?
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:BeastWars1_ ... otmode.jpg
If the answer is anything other than "the new one", you're either self-delusional or lying to try to win an argument.

I'd like to point out that this is an anniversary line. I mean, remember 2007 and GI Joes' anniversary line?

Dude, you being the voice of reason keeps throwing me, I'm still surprised by it not being an angry reactionary response.

It's nice to see some James Raiz art again. The inks seemed a bit heavy, but Raiz should definitely stick around and draw some more Transformers.

I actually disliked the art in this issue, almost enough to say I hated it outright. Are those expressions or just incomprehensible lines, or maybe a seizure? Is everything dirty, scuffed, and broken EVERYWHERE? Is that an arm sticking up or another robot or a leg or a backpack? Is that a hole in that guy's eye or a warped reflection of black stuff? Where did Ultra Magnus go in this panel?

Loved the cover though,I got the B cover, very fun.

By and large, I am happy with Classics voyager Optimus being my representation of G1 Prime, but that mold has not aged well over the years. It's not terrible, but it there is room for some improvement. Wanting toys with articulation that is standard fare right now is not greedy. I mean, what's wrong with people wanting their favorite characters to have the best possible toys they can?

I agree with all of this.

And, unfortunately, many of the Classics molds have not held up well over the years. Everything from Universe on however, more or less has.

...except Universe holding up. Prowl is middling and the repaints are all worse, Octane sucks, Ironhide and Ratchet have a lot of problems and a design flaw that's never been corrected, Cheetor and Dinobot are abominable, Silverbolt is pretty bad, and Onslaught I'd call middling as well even without the lack of combiner taken into account.