More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Sparky Prime]

I doubt we'll ever see the real Ultra Magnus. We're stuck with Minimus.

I picked up the current issue of MTMTE featuring Rewind's movie of the crew, and when "Magnus" introduces himself as "Ultra Magnus, duly appointed enforcer of the Tyrest Accord", my first thought was "no he's not." I'll never look at the IDW version of Magnus in the same way again, which is more than a little annoying.

You're confusing "real" with "original". He's not the original Ultra Magnus, but he is a real Ultra Magnus. He's been the only Ultra Magnus we've known in the IDW universe.

And we did kinda see the original, when Minimus explained how he came to be Ultra Magnus.

[BWprowl]

I read this week's issue.

Not bad over-all. It definitely reads like the end of the run. (If this book comes through "Dark Cybertron" in terms of numbering and title, I would not expect it to be the same direction and tone. Such is the way of things.)

I'm genuinely amazed you of all people liked it, given that the whole point of the issue, stated several times, was that actual story progression isn't fun, closure is stupid, and that Roberts wants to drag this out as long as possible just for kicks.

I mean, that part where the Circle guys are berating Skids over the 'plot' of the movie, talking about how they just meander about, having conversations that are only interesting to them, wasting time on minutae and pointless details? That's been my main complaint from like, day one! This is that thing Roberts has done a few times already, where he acknowleges and points out flaws in his storytelling within the fiction itself, showing that he KNOWS these issues are there, and does so in a way that makes it clear he has no intention of fixing them, because...good enough, I guess? This is the last straw, I think, since this time the problem he's saying he doesn't care about fixing is so central to the issues I take with the book that I can't really overlook it. The 'The End' at the end of this run/arc/whatever reads more like a 'Who Cares?' in this case.

MTMTE has some terrific ideas, and Roberts really shows off his abilities in some areas (I absolutely loved the whole Ultra Magnus thing, for what it's worth), but man is it not worth wading through all his self-indulgent bullshit to get to (I dare make comparisons to Miyazaki). Having already dropped RID, and with this whole shebang going into a big stupid crossover event that's also a blatant new-toy commercial starting next month, I think I'm just done with IDW's TF universe at this point. I'll ride out ReG1 for as long as I can recall whatever the hell is going on in that book, and then I'll probably just be out of TF comics for a while.

What's it called when a franchise in general is still something you think is super-cool, but absolutely no iteration of it across any current media appeals to you? God I just want TF to run out of steam and hibernate for a couple years.

[andersonh1]

I enjoy both series, but I have to admit that MTMTE does often feel like it's wasted a lot of time on witty banter and pointless stories instead of actually exploring the whole premise of the series. A little more focus on plot would be nice. The last seven issues have had plenty of story and forward momentum, but a number before that did not, including the one that bugs me the most, the "Magnus can't hold his liquor" issue.

You're confusing "real" with "original".

To be fair, I have referred to the genuine Ultra Magnus as "the original" from time to time. But that does tend to confer a certain legitimacy on the other Ultra Magnuses (Magni?) that followed, and I chafe a bit at doing that. So the use of "real" is deliberate.

But you're correct, "original" is more accurate.

[Sparky Prime]

To be fair, I have referred to the genuine Ultra Magnus as "the original" from time to time. But that does tend to confer a certain legitimacy on the other Ultra Magnuses (Magni?) that followed, and I chafe a bit at doing that. So the use of "real" is deliberate.

But you're correct, "original" is more accurate.

That's my point. You're devaluing their legitimacy by referring to them as not being the "real" Ultra Magnus, and that is not an accurate way to describe the character(s).

[Dominic]

I mean, that part where the Circle guys are berating Skids over the 'plot' of the movie, talking about how they just meander about, having conversations that are only interesting to them, wasting time on minutae and pointless details? That's been my main complaint from like, day one! This is that thing Roberts has done a few times already, where he acknowleges and points out flaws in his storytelling within the fiction itself, showing that he KNOWS these issues are there, and does so in a way that makes it clear he has no intention of fixing them, because...good enough, I guess? This is the last straw, I think, since this time the problem he's saying he doesn't care about fixing is so central to the issues I take with the book that I can't really overlook it. The 'The End' at the end of this run/arc/whatever reads more like a 'Who Cares?' in this case.

That kind of is the point of the series though. IDW split the franchise, with purposeful narrative being largely allocated to "Robots in Disguise" and character focused narrative that does not do much else being largely the focus of "More than Meets the Eye".

Look at the crew of the Lost Light. As pointed out in the Hoist "Spotlight", most of those guys have personalities that are (as Hoise put it) the results of crippling emotional disorders (which is why a relatively sensible individual like Hoist chafes so much as a member of the crew). These are largely the fuck-ups and neer-do-wells of Cybertron: Rodimus (self-aggrandizing fuckwit who is incapable of managing his own life, let alone being a leader), Drift (chasing fairy-tales), Tailgate (so bored with a dead end job that he lies to his friends about his past), Cyclonus (a man out of his time), Swerve (Seinfeldian levels of neurosis), Whirl (should be thrown in a hole and buried), Sunstreaker (need we say more?).....

MTMTE has some terrific ideas, and Roberts really shows off his abilities in some areas (I absolutely loved the whole Ultra Magnus thing, for what it's worth), but man is it not worth wading through all his self-indulgent bullshit to get to (I dare make comparisons to Miyazaki). Having already dropped RID, and with this whole shebang going into a big stupid crossover event that's also a blatant new-toy commercial starting next month, I think I'm just done with IDW's TF universe at this point. I'll ride out ReG1 for as long as I can recall whatever the hell is going on in that book, and then I'll probably just be out of TF comics for a while.

Ya know, just because RiD was not the book you expected... Seriously, the faction lines are still blurred. (The Constructicons are hanging around with the Autobots and a still morally dodgy Prowl. Dirge and a number of other pre-86 characters have given up their factions. The Decepticons are ready to mutiny.....)

What toys is "Dark Cybertron" going to push? Hasbro seems content to let the "Prime" books handle that. (And, those books are still pretty good.)

"ReGeneration One" is pretty easy to follow. It actually progresses every month.

[BWprowl]

That kind of is the point of the series though. IDW split the franchise, with purposeful narrative being largely allocated to "Robots in Disguise" and character focused narrative that does not do much else being largely the focus of "More than Meets the Eye".

Look at the crew of the Lost Light. As pointed out in the Hoist "Spotlight", most of those guys have personalities that are (as Hoise put it) the results of crippling emotional disorders (which is why a relatively sensible individual like Hoist chafes so much as a member of the crew). These are largely the fuck-ups and neer-do-wells of Cybertron: Rodimus (self-aggrandizing fuckwit who is incapable of managing his own life, let alone being a leader), Drift (chasing fairy-tales), Tailgate (so bored with a dead end job that he lies to his friends about his past), Cyclonus (a man out of his time), Swerve (Seinfeldian levels of neurosis), Whirl (should be thrown in a hole and buried), Sunstreaker (need we say more?).....

...and is any of that worth reading about? Were MTMTE a definitively comic-based series and actually funny enough to justify such an approach, I'd be down for it (as I've mentioned before, stuff like 'The Venture Bros.' or even '8-Bit Theatre' uses largely the same approach, but is vastly more entertaining in execution). But MTMTE doesn't go that route, and instead seems content to have James Roberts' favorite characters blab to each other endlessly about how entertaining they allegedly are. The fact that Roberts actually acknowledges this tendency as an *issue* on-page and then makes no attempt to fix it only exacerbates it as a problem.

If you bring me some soup with a fly in it, you're supposed to pretend the fly is part of the recipe, not admit that there's a huge gross fly in there that shouldn't be and then just walk away and expect me to eat it anyway.

Ya know, just because RiD was not the book you expected... Seriously, the faction lines are still blurred. (The Constructicons are hanging around with the Autobots and a still morally dodgy Prowl. Dirge and a number of other pre-86 characters have given up their factions. The Decepticons are ready to mutiny.....)

None of that matters in the face of the fact that Barber's writing is utter shit, in my opinion. I'm sorry, but if you, as a writer, honestly believe that "Well-intentioned character led to downfall by his own misguided extremism" is a less-interesting story than "Evil bad guy mind-control" and demonstrate this by supplanting the former with the latter as a 'plot twist', then we have nothing left to discuss. You're an idiot.

What toys is "Dark Cybertron" going to push?

Starscream's getting a new body that looks like the Armada iteration of the character to hawk the new Deluxe that's coming out. Bumblebee's switched to the Goldbug-themed remold of his recent toy because that figure's coming out next wave. This latest issue of MTMTE doubles as a pack-in issue for the upcoming Skids figure. Rattrap and Waspinator got co-starring roles in subsequent issues of RID to sell their upcoming new toys (which didn't even need to be made, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).

Time was, the G1-themed comics could avoid this sort of thing, since they didn't feature the line of toys Hasbro was selling at the time. But since Hasbro mostly makes second and third passes at old characters now, here we are.

"ReGeneration One" is pretty easy to follow. It actually progresses every month.

Maybe it's the sheer amount of characters involved, or the fucking month-long wait between 'episodes' that really shouldn't be allowed in serial storytelling anymore, but it's almost impossible for me to remember whenever I pick up the latest issue who was fighting who, or who was on what planet or what part of Cybertron, or what the status of a given situation is. Thank god putting recaps at the beginning of comics is common practice these days, as that helps keep me up to speed, but even then I'll be turning a page and going "That guy was THERE doing THAT?! I barely recall that!" It's a big, loud clusterfuck that's just a pain in the ass to keep up with.

[Dominic]

If you bring me some soup with a fly in it, you're supposed to pretend the fly is part of the recipe, not admit that there's a huge gross fly in there that shouldn't be and then just walk away and expect me to eat it anyway.

But, in this case, the fly is part of the recipe. I am not saying it is the best recipe for soup. But, in this case, if there is a fly in the soup, the chef is doing a good job of following the recipe.

None of that matters in the face of the fact that Barber's writing is utter shit, in my opinion. I'm sorry, but if you, as a writer, honestly believe that "Well-intentioned character led to downfall by his own misguided extremism" is a less-interesting story than "Evil bad guy mind-control" and demonstrate this by supplanting the former with the latter as a 'plot twist', then we have nothing left to discuss. You're an idiot.

"Well intentioned character downfall" was never Barber's plan. He did not supplant anything. His plan was always to have "Prowl (who is *still* morally dodgy and possibly headed for trouble, despite what you say) end up being mind-controlled by bad guys to the complete suprise of everybody including the readers because 'Prowl under mind control' was not much worse than 'Prowl as he was last Tuesday'".

Rattrap and Waspinator got co-starring roles in subsequent issues of RID to sell their upcoming new toys (which didn't even need to be made, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).

I am not even a fan of BW, and I am going to step up here.

Rattrap and Waspinator are both main characters that have not gotten *new* toys in over a decade. (It has been over 7 years since they had toys at all, and those were just repacks of moulds that did not age very well.)

Maybe it's the sheer amount of characters involved, or the fucking month-long wait between 'episodes' that really shouldn't be allowed in serial storytelling anymore, but it's almost impossible for me to remember whenever I pick up the latest issue who was fighting who, or who was on what planet or what part of Cybertron, or what the status of a given situation is. Thank god putting recaps at the beginning of comics is common practice these days, as that helps keep me up to speed, but even then I'll be turning a page and going "That guy was THERE doing THAT?! I barely recall that!" It's a big, loud clusterfuck that's just a pain in the ass to keep up with.

Not seeing it at all. Maybe you are getting bogged down in background details?

[BWprowl]

But, in this case, the fly is part of the recipe. I am not saying it is the best recipe for soup. But, in this case, if there is a fly in the soup, the chef is doing a good job of following the recipe.

Then why is Roberts, on the fucking page of the comic, going "Yeah, my characters are all head cases that talk too much and get nothing accomplished as the story takes too long to go nowhere."? He's not pretending anything is part of the recipe, he is acknowledging that there is stuff in his comic that SUCKS and then expecting me to overlook it and keep reading even though he just pointed it out to me.

"Well intentioned character downfall" was never Barber's plan. He did not supplant anything.

Exactly, he thought so little of the *actually interesting* story for Prowl (you know, the one guys like Roche and Roberts had already done a bang-up job of developing) that he used it as a cover for his 'brilliant' storyline about Bombshell the mad scientist using mind-control.

His plan was always to have "Prowl (who is *still* morally dodgy and possibly headed for trouble, despite what you say)

The Constructicons wanting to be buddies with Prowl because he's kind of a jerk is not even on the same level as Prowl inciting Decepticons to violence over issues he caused so he could justify their destruction. Don't even pretend.

end up being mind-controlled by bad guys to the complete suprise of everybody including the readers because 'Prowl under mind control' was not much worse than 'Prowl as he was last Tuesday'".

I don't know about you, but the primary reason *I* didn't expect the mind-control reveal in RID was because up until that point, Barber had tricked me into thinking he could write above the level of a Saturday-morning cartoon.

Then Starscream loudly announced his intent to betray everyone, just like in the G1 cartoon. Sigh...

I am not even a fan of BW, and I am going to step up here.

Rattrap and Waspinator are both main characters that have not gotten *new* toys in over a decade. (It has been over 7 years since they had toys at all, and those were just repacks of moulds that did not age very well.)

Rattrap and Waspinator hadn't gotten new toys because they did not need new toys. Their original toys were plenty show-accurate (Waspinator even had multiple later versions with paint closer to the show), and had oodles of articulation. They absolutely were not in need of remakes the way guys like, say, Ironhide or Wheeljack were. You can make an argument for Rhinox, give how off his original toy was, but Rattrap and Waspinator? Completely redundant.

Not seeing it at all. Maybe you are getting bogged down in background details?

I dunno what it is, all I know is that every month that comic just kinda washes over me without engaging me at all, and I completely forget about it until thirty days later.

[Dominic]

Then why is Roberts, on the fucking page of the comic, going "Yeah, my characters are all head cases that talk too much and get nothing accomplished as the story takes too long to go nowhere."? He's not pretending anything is part of the recipe, he is acknowledging that there is stuff in his comic that SUCKS and then expecting me to overlook it and keep reading even though he just pointed it out to me.

Roberts is saying "Yum, flies in the soup!" And, you have to admit, no small number of fans seem to enjoy bugs in their soup. Look at the last damned two pages of the comic. Rewind and Rung say something like "this is about us, and it is okay as long as we are all here".

"Yum, flies in my soup!"

You may not like flies in your soup. But, I think you would have to agree that "cup 'o flies soup" should have some flies in it.

Exactly, he thought so little of the *actually interesting* story for Prowl (you know, the one guys like Roche and Roberts had already done a bang-up job of developing) that he used it as a cover for his 'brilliant' storyline about Bombshell the mad scientist using mind-control.

Roche and Roberts set Prowl up to be kind of under-handed and ruthless, which Barber has maintained. You were in to see Prowl go bad. So, when that did not happen (and it was never the plan), you got mad. I was in to see what Barber was actually going to do, so I am still on for this book.

If anything, Prowl seems even murkier now. He is still ruthless. But, now everybody knows it.

They absolutely were not in need of remakes the way guys like, say, Ironhide or Wheeljack were. You can make an argument for Rhinox, give how off his original toy was, but Rattrap and Waspinator? Completely redundant.

Do you have Rattrap or Waspinator? Have you ever seen any of their show-relevant toys? They sucked then, but people forgave it because standards in the 90s were lower than they were a few years ago.

I found my Rattrap recently. The fucking backpack is so big that the figure cannot even stand properly. The Transmetal is even worse, not even transforming to look like the show and having stability issues to boot.

Waspinator lacked paint. And, the face was not quite moulded right. The BWX recolour had that enormous Predacon sigil on the wasp mode's back. It looked like a knock-off.


Now, even if I put those significant problems aside and assume that the above described and decried toys are acceptable (even masterpieces), there is still the question of time. The most recent of those figures (the BWX releases) are all 7+ years old. Some fans were not able to get those old toys. Some fans may not even have been fans 7 years ago.

But, fuck them, right? They can always buy their toys for more money on eBay, right? Let them hunt on eBay and/or pick over junk at flea markets if they want toys of characters that they happen to like. (That will make them want to stay in the hobby!) They were not in the fandom soon enough. the only people who should have toys of old characters are the old guard fans, or the new guys who have eBay money or the guys who are willing to buy trash from flea markets.

And, hey, you know what? They should have kept Thundercracker exclusive too! If somebody did not have the money to go to BotCon 2007, they clearly did not deserve (and probably did not even really want) Thundercracker, am I right?

[BWprowl]

Roberts is saying "Yum, flies in the soup!" And, you have to admit, no small number of fans seem to enjoy bugs in their soup. Look at the last damned two pages of the comic. Rewind and Rung say something like "this is about us, and it is okay as long as we are all here".

"Yum, flies in my soup!"

You may not like flies in your soup. But, I think you would have to agree that "cup 'o flies soup" should have some flies in it.

Roberts also shows a large group of characters getting fed up with said 'flies', and leaving. That's me, I'm done.

Roche and Roberts set Prowl up to be kind of under-handed and ruthless, which Barber has maintained.

You can't just 'maintain' that, that's the problem. Barber did a masterful job of showing how incredible a story where Prowl pushed that characterization *forward* and *did something* with it could be, then redacted it in the worst way imaginable because he thought keeping that status quo was better.

You were in to see Prowl go bad. So, when that did not happen (and it was never the plan), you got mad. I was in to see what Barber was actually going to do, so I am still on for this book.

I was in to see *something* done with Prowl's characterization after all this time. If he's still just 'morally dodgy' after all this time, what was even the point of it?

And that's not even talking about the bullshit Barber pulled with the madness in the wilderness just being Megatron's hate-plague, or Starscream forgetting his character development halfway through and reverting to Sunbow-Scream, or Metalhawk being a retard, or the idiotic writing resolving stuff like Ironhide and the Dinobots arriving Just In Time or Prowl good-guy-ing his way out of being taped to Devastator. Jesus, this isn't even the topic to be discussing that comic in, and we've discussed it to death there anyway.

If anything, Prowl seems even murkier now. He is still ruthless. But, now everybody knows it.

And is *anything* interesting going to come of that, or is Barber content to have Starscream sell a new toy while Shockwave reveals himself to be the True Big Bad Guy *again*?

Do you have Rattrap or Waspinator? Have you ever seen any of their show-relevant toys? They sucked then, but people forgave it because standards in the 90s were lower than they were a few years ago.

I have Waspinator. He matches up with the show fine, as well as guys like Classics Prime or Universe Prowl are good toys of the G1 characters, and he came out over ten years earlier.

I found my Rattrap recently. The fucking backpack is so big that the figure cannot even stand properly.

A too-big backpack is no reason to waste time and resources making a whole-new figure of a character from a show that's been off the air for over a decade and a half.

The Transmetal is even worse, not even transforming to look like the show and having stability issues to boot.

Strictly-speaking, it's the show model that doesn't transform to look like the toy, not the other way around.

Waspinator lacked paint. And, the face was not quite moulded right. The BWX recolour had that enormous Predacon sigil on the wasp mode's back. It looked like a knock-off.

'Not quite molded right'? How OCD do you have to be that this necessitates a whole new toy? And you're delusional if you somehow think the new figure won't have a similar litany of small issues. Does the gappy insect back and needless gimmick on the new toy mean we should already be planning for another new Waspinator five years from now?

But, fuck them, right? They can always buy their toys for more money on eBay, right? Let them hunt on eBay and/or pick over junk at flea markets if they want toys of characters that they happen to like. (That will make them want to stay in the hobby!) They were not in the fandom soon enough. the only people who should have toys of old characters are the old guard fans, or the new guys who have eBay money or the guys who are willing to buy trash from flea markets.

Not trying to sound too harsh, but yeah: that's exactly what I'm saying. Earlier this year, I decided I wanted Megaplex. I didn't stamp my feet and cry about Hasbro not having made a new Megaplex since 1996, I didn't bitch about the old one being the only option (aside from the BotCon toy, which is what prompted this in the first place) and not being perfect enough so they needed to make a brand-new one. I just went on eBay and bought a fucking Megaplex.

Why would 'new' fans even want toys of Waspinator and Rattrap anyway? When was the last time they appeared in those designs on TV? The only reason they're showing up in the comics now is because Hasbro wanted IDW to advertise the new toys they're making purely to appeal to nostalgic 90's kids who are flustered over their original Rattrap and Waspinator toys not being perfect.

And, hey, you know what? They should have kept Thundercracker exclusive too! If somebody did not have the money to go to BotCon 2007, they clearly did not deserve (and probably did not even really want) Thundercracker, am I right?

Given that I was one of the people back in the day who was saying it was ludicrous for people to be complaining about the exclusivity of a toy that was just a repaint as a dude who hadn't been relevent in decades, I'm not sure what you expect my answer to be on this one. You already got a dang transforming jet, who cares how blue it is?

At least G1 toys like Thundercracker gain slightly more by being remade. Rattrap gets what, a smaller backpack, cheaper plastic, twice the price, and a shitty Barber comic packed in with it?