More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Dominic]

I read this week's issue.

Not bad over-all. It definitely reads like the end of the run. (If this book comes through "Dark Cybertron" in terms of numbering and title, I would not expect it to be the same direction and tone. Such is the way of things.)


How long has Raiz (one of the most under-appreciated artists to work on TF) been on this title? Is he sticking around?

[Sparky Prime]

How long has Raiz (one of the most under-appreciated artists to work on TF) been on this title? Is he sticking around?

I believe this is the first and (so far) only issue of MTMTE he's worked on. No clue if he's sticking around or not. Seeing as Milne seems to be the main artist of the title, with other artists occasionally filling in, I'd have to guess probably not...

[JediTricks]

Yeah, because we never get to actually read about Ultra Magnus. He doesn't exist in IDW continuity, though he did before this retcon changed that. That's what irritates me so much about it. We had an all new, different and interesting take on Ultra Magnus, and now we've got a skinny little pretender with a moustache who isn't Magnus at all.

Despite what Sparky and BWProwl insist, if all it took to be a person was to assume their identity, ID theft wouldn't be a problem in the real world, would it? "You stole Mr. Smith's credit card number! Fraud!" "No, I'm Mr. Smith too." "Ok, that's alright then."

Ultra Magnus did exist in IDW continuity as a figure in the past who died, and secretly had his mantle taken up by others. MTMTE challenges our perception and preconceptions about the concept of identity - are we who we are, or are we only who our peers perceive us to be, who our legends make us out to be; once we're gone, does it matter to our identity if our dreams stayed secret?

If you were to put someone else's mind in my head, that person would legally be me. My identity would be tied to that physical being, and not to the thoughts which created it. So in that situation, if you stole my body, you would legally be "JediTricks" and all that goes with it. It wouldn't be seen as different from someone who got permanent amnesia, from a current legal standpoint. Philosophically it'd be the opposite, but you mentioned identity theft which is a legal concern. If you separate the mind from the body, who is the man?

Our bodies are just masks then, they are no different than the cape and cowl of Batman in that respect. They are ours to do with as we please, but ultimately they are up to history to decide who we are seen as. John Wayne may have never drank a beer his likeness now sells; Fred Astaire certainly never danced with an electric vacuum and yet you can see him do that on Youtube any day or night, your perception of his identity ultimately is all he has left now that he's passed away, and others command it to their will.

So "The Dread Pirate Roberts" is the perfect example, it's a person who actually existed, built a reputation which became how others saw him, then was removed from the role and the identity was passed down to others as a mantle while outsiders never knew that the man and the legend were no longer the same - to them, the Dread Pirate Roberts is the identity that is who it has always been.

MTMTE argues that everything you have actively known and read about in the "now" of your comics regarding Ultra Magnus has been the same fellow the whole time, and that only his ancient legend is where you would find others who wore that mantle. While the stories others tell about him are part of the Ultra Magnus identity created from legend, the character you personally witnessed outside of flashbacks has always been one guy. If your opinion of Ultra Magnus is based not on anything you've seen him do but only on his name and his legend, then how would he ever assert his identity - whether he be Minimus or Magnus? The past is prologue, as they say, and not everybody's prologue speaks the truth, there are many reasons to mislead about one's past and thus it becomes an acceptable fictional construct to use. The question I have is: why does it matter, what does it change?

What if the story had Ultra Magnus always being the original, but instead of living that life his legend tells of he's actually a charlatan who uses trickery to fool people into thinking he's badder-ass than he is? Would that also have changed your opinion of Ultra Magnus, would you still feel this vehemently?

I guess in some respects, even though every continuity is seperate, that it's impossible for me not to consider G1 Magnus a fairly top-tier character, even if he's not always been terribly compelling. And so even though this is not the same version of Magnus as the Sunbow cartoon or Marvel/Regen 1, or Dreamwave (who got a great character arc in the second Dreamwave mini-series), I still see him as a prominent character who ought to be more than a backstory for a newly created Roberts fan-character.

Sounds to me like your perception of the character's identity is more important than the character as presented here, despite knowing it's a different continuity.

MTMTE #21
Just to get it out of the way: I called it. Magnus (or the guy impersonating Magnus) lives. I said months ago that it was unlikely that a prominent character like Ultra Magnus would be killed off, and I turned out to be right. Or sort of right, since the original Magnus is long since dead, but the current holder of the Magnus identity has survived being stabbed through the spark, so that counts. Though I have to admit, the way he survived having his head crushed by Tyrest is eye-rolling. There's an even smaller Mimimus inside the Minimus that was inside the Ultra Magnus armor? Really? The "Remain in Light" story arc has not been kind to Ultra Magnus in any way.

Roberts must be a Doctor Who fan, because last issue we had the cliffhanger, and this issue we get a revised cliffhanger that answers the "how are they going to get out of that one?" dilemma. Doctor Who watchers have seen a few of those over the years, where an extra bit of information in week 2 solves a problem that seemed unsolvable in week 1. Like the really small Minimus inside the slightly larger Minimus, it's a cheat, since we saw Tyrest walking into the portal last time, but this issue he never makes it. He's stopped before he enters. That's fine, because the payoff is generally worth it.

A lot gets resolved in this issue. Cyclonus in particular gets some great scenes and character moments. Who would have thought that a character who was originally a Decepticon in other continuities would turn out to be one of the more admirable characters in this book? He outshines just about every Autobot. He's largely played the role of straight man to every other character's comedy, which has helped.

The final revelation about Rodimus and his role in allowing Overlord on board doesn't seem to carry as much weight as it should. It would be shocking if a version of Hot Rod from another continuity had done it, but sadly it seems very much in character for IDW's Rodimus. It does make me dislike this version of Rodimus even more than I already did. This guy was one of my favorite characters back in the day, and indeed remains one over in Regeneration One, but MTMTE has long since turned Rodimus into a character that's very hard to enjoy reading about. He's very, very flawed with little in the way of redeeming qualities. And he left Drift take the fall for something he was complicit in. What a jerk.

Overall: good story, lots of good ideas, but a lot of damage has been done to various characters in my opinion, Rodimus in particular. Makes me wonder where things will go from here, and if Rodimus will redeem himself.

Finally got around to reading this, and I didn't feel any damage done to various characters.

I don't really like Rodimus much, but this one at least seems to be more consistent and intentionally flawed rather than seen as some great up and comer who falls on his face or guesses his way into heroics - neither of which backed up by the personality driving them. Rodimus has shown potential for growth this whole series and has come up short every time. He will again. And I'm sure Drift or someone pointed out that Rodimus taking the fall for Overlord would only harm the view the crew had of their captain.


So who sends the signal back in time that just barely gets missed before the Lost Light takes off and why? Seems like we've got more troubles ahead.

[andersonh1]

If your opinion of Ultra Magnus is based not on anything you've seen him do but only on his name and his legend, then how would he ever assert his identity - whether he be Minimus or Magnus? The past is prologue, as they say, and not everybody's prologue speaks the truth, there are many reasons to mislead about one's past and thus it becomes an acceptable fictional construct to use. The question I have is: why does it matter, what does it change?

I can't put it any more plainly than I already have: he's not Ultra Magnus, he's a new character entirely, a fan-character created by James Roberts who has been given the name and identity of Ultra Magnus. Minimus Ambus has replaced Ultra Magnus. That irritates me. Making Ultra Magnus the secret identity of Minimus Ambus retroactively alters every story we've seen so far, and not in a good way. That also irritates me. I'm not reading about Magnus every month, I'm reading about Ambus hiding inside Magnus armor. I've been robbed of the genuine article and given a fake in its place.

Identity theft indeed.

Sounds to me like your perception of the character's identity is more important than the character as presented here, despite knowing it's a different continuity.

I'd just like Ultra Magnus to actually BE Ultra Magnus. That's not too much to ask.

[Onslaught Six]

He is, though.

[andersonh1]

He is, though.

No, he isn't, thanks to the retcon Roberts has applied to the character. Ultra Magnus is dead and has been for a long time now. Minimus Ambus may wear the armor and call himself Ultra Magnus, but the fact remains that he's an entirely seperate character.

[JediTricks]

I can't put it any more plainly than I already have: he's not Ultra Magnus, he's a new character entirely, a fan-character created by James Roberts who has been given the name and identity of Ultra Magnus. Minimus Ambus has replaced Ultra Magnus. That irritates me. Making Ultra Magnus the secret identity of Minimus Ambus retroactively alters every story we've seen so far, and not in a good way. That also irritates me. I'm not reading about Magnus every month, I'm reading about Ambus hiding inside Magnus armor. I've been robbed of the genuine article and given a fake in its place.

That's a weird bigotry. Every fictional character is someone's creation, why Roberts' character is a "fan-character" suggesting it's a lesser-than where others aren't is a little disconcerting. Roberts is a fan, and he's a paid professional now, what's the problem? I didn't hear anybody complaining that Neil Gaiman's Idris/human-TARDIS was a "fan-character" when he finally wrote a Doctor Who. Is it that Roberts started writing professionally from his fan work? There are more James Bond novels written by John Gardner than Ian Fleming. The final Philip Marlowe book was chiefly written not by Raymond Chandler, who died while having written only a few chapters, but by Robert B. Parker (Chandler fanboy and creator of the successful "Spencer for Hire" novels). So what about it being a "fan-character" irritates you?

And how does it affect other stories "not in a good way"? How does Ultra Magnus being an adopted identity and visage harm his role in other stories? Do his actions now have less meaning because they were Dread Pirate Roberts'ed, and if so, why? You haven't articulated this very well at all, you've repeated the same mantra over and over that it's a different guy, but not explained why that's a problem. "I've been robbed by the genuine article..." no, you haven't, only your perception of what this character's history is has changed, everything you have read in the IDW G1 universe is the same consistent (ok, it's Transformers and it's IDW, so not that consistent) character. They messed with your preconceptions via a retcon, that's how fiction can be sometimes. Why is it that this time it shakes your foundation to the core while others it doesn't? The Lost Light wasn't destroyed at the end of issue 1. Red Alert wasn't permanently killed after all. Pharma's death was turned around. Megatron wrote thoughtful essays and was peaceful before being tortured by the system, he wasn't the violent gladiator who stood for only overthrowing good. Orion Pax was a violent man driven almost to the bring of anarchy. Shockwave was a good guy senator. This is fiction, history is up to the licensor and the licensor has deemed IDW can be allowed to create their own fiction and their own history.

Identity theft indeed.

Yeah, and...? So what? It's a thing that happened, so why is that an insurmountable problem instead of a fictional construct for you? It happens, I know a woman whose true name I never knew because she'd go into nightclubs and befriend women who looked like her, and when they'd go to the bathroom leaving behind their purses she'd steal their IDs and live under those names for a while - it's a thing that happened.

I'd just like Ultra Magnus to actually BE Ultra Magnus. That's not too much to ask.

You can read whatever you wish as you like, but it IS too much to ask the licensed author to change his fictional construct to fit fan needs - IDW has every right to make Ultra Magnus be a dead body worn by Minimus Ambus so long as the licensor agrees, and on the philosophical angle I still would argue they have the right to make that kind of retcon, it doesn't truly change anything we've seen of the character, it only alters our perception of his legend.

Ultra Magnus is dead, he's always been dead in these comics, and someone has been tasked with running around in his body pretending to be him. He is as much Ultra Magnus now as anybody, every character who has ever interacted with Ultra Magnus on the page only has interacted with this guy (unless it was a flashback).


EDIT: By the way, I'm not trying to gang up on you or single you out, I simply don't understand your take on this and would like to.

[andersonh1]

That's a weird bigotry. Every fictional character is someone's creation, why Roberts' character is a "fan-character" suggesting it's a lesser-than where others aren't is a little disconcerting.

In some respects, Minimus Ambus is no different than Straxus or Jhiaxus or Xarron. He's an author created character used to advance a particular narrative. But none of those other characters bother me the way Ambus does, even if I gripe about Rung being given such historical significance from time to time. And it's because none of the others replaced a character. Minimus Ambus has. Roberts hasn't added to the cast, he's substituted Magnus with his own character. And that's a step too far for me.

That's why I've used "fan character" as a pejorative term. It reminds me of bad fan-fiction where the fan created character takes center stage over established characters.

How does Ultra Magnus being an adopted identity and visage harm his role in other stories? Do his actions now have less meaning because they were Dread Pirate Roberts'ed, and if so, why?

Yes. Because I thought I was reading about one character for the last six or seven years, and suddenly thanks to the power of the retcon, I'm reading about another character cosplaying.

You haven't articulated this very well at all, you've repeated the same mantra over and over that it's a different guy, but not explained why that's a problem. "I've been robbed by the genuine article..."

How is my problem not clearly articulated? I thought I was reading about Ultra Magnus all this time (and was, prior to the retcon), I was enjoying IDW's take on who he was and what his role was, when suddenly he's not Magnus at all. So why have I been investing my time in this fake character? Why should I enjoy the fact that Magnus has been replaced by Ambus?

Let me put it this way: Magnus is the role, Minimus is the actor playing the role. I want to root for and read about Magnus, but I can't. Because he's a role being portrayed by someone else entirely. And now I'm being asked to transfer my thoughts, opinions and feelings about Magnus as we've known him to an entirely new character, and it's a bridge too far for me. I'm not willing to do that. Roberts hasn't earned the right to ask that. Magnus has been around in one form or another for 25 years. Minimus has been around for a few months. The two characters are not equal.

no, you haven't, only your perception of what this character's history is has changed, everything you have read in the IDW G1 universe is the same consistent (ok, it's Transformers and it's IDW, so not that consistent) character. They messed with your preconceptions via a retcon, that's how fiction can be sometimes. Why is it that this time it shakes your foundation to the core while others it doesn't? The Lost Light wasn't destroyed at the end of issue 1. Red Alert wasn't permanently killed after all. Pharma's death was turned around. Megatron wrote books and was peaceful at first, he wasn't the violent gladiator who stood for only overthrowing good. Orion Pax was a violent man driven almost to the bring of anarchy. Shockwave was a good guy senator. This is fiction, history is up to the licensor and the licensor has deemed IDW can be allowed to create their own fiction and their own history.

Absolutely, IDW can do what they like with the property, Hasbro permitting. And while I don't always agree or like the directions they took with characters in all those examples, one thing separates them all from what's been done with Magnus: none of them replace one character with another. They are attempts to do something with a character, to grow or develop them, or to put them in danger and leave their fate unknown for awhile. Nothing you list equates with what Roberts has done with Ultra Magnus.

You can read whatever you wish as you like, but it IS too much to ask the licensed author to change his fictional construct to fit fan needs - IDW has every right to make Ultra Magnus be a dead body worn by Minimus Ambus so long as the licensor agrees, and on the philosophical angle I still would argue they have the right to make that kind of retcon, it doesn't truly change anything we've seen of the character, it only alters our perception of his legend.

I've never argued that they don't have the right to do it. Just that I disagree with it and feel ripped off by the retcon.

He is as much Ultra Magnus now as anybody, every character who has ever interacted with Ultra Magnus on the page only has interacted with this guy (unless it was a flashback).

The fact that other characters were taken in by the charade does not make Ambus anything other than a skilled impersonator.

EDIT: By the way, I'm not trying to gang up on you or single you out, I simply don't understand your take on this and would like to.

Not a problem.

[Tigermegatron]

That's a weird bigotry. Every fictional character is someone's creation, why Roberts' character is a "fan-character" suggesting it's a lesser-than where others aren't is a little disconcerting.

In some respects, Minimus Ambus is no different than Straxus or Jhiaxus or Xarron. He's an author created character used to advance a particular narrative. But none of those other characters bother me the way Ambus does, even if I gripe about Rung being given such historical significance from time to time. And it's because none of the others replaced a character. Minimus Ambus has. Roberts hasn't added to the cast, he's substituted Magnus with his own character. And that's a step too far for me.

That's why I've used "fan character" as a pejorative term. It reminds me of bad fan-fiction where the fan created character takes center stage over established characters.

How does Ultra Magnus being an adopted identity and visage harm his role in other stories? Do his actions now have less meaning because they were Dread Pirate Roberts'ed, and if so, why?

Yes. Because I thought I was reading about one character for the last six or seven years, and suddenly thanks to the power of the retcon, I'm reading about another character cosplaying.

You haven't articulated this very well at all, you've repeated the same mantra over and over that it's a different guy, but not explained why that's a problem. "I've been robbed by the genuine article..."

How is my problem not clearly articulated? I thought I was reading about Ultra Magnus all this time (and was, prior to the retcon), I was enjoying IDW's take on who he was and what his role was, when suddenly he's not Magnus at all. So why have I been investing my time in this fake character? Why should I enjoy the fact that Magnus has been replaced by Ambus?

Let me put it this way: Magnus is the role, Minimus is the actor playing the role. I want to root for and read about Magnus, but I can't. Because he's a role being portrayed by someone else entirely. And now I'm being asked to transfer my thoughts, opinions and feelings about Magnus as we've known him to an entirely new character, and it's a bridge too far for me. I'm not willing to do that. Roberts hasn't earned the right to ask that. Magnus has been around in one form or another for 25 years. Minimus has been around for a few months. The two characters are not equal.

no, you haven't, only your perception of what this character's history is has changed, everything you have read in the IDW G1 universe is the same consistent (ok, it's Transformers and it's IDW, so not that consistent) character. They messed with your preconceptions via a retcon, that's how fiction can be sometimes. Why is it that this time it shakes your foundation to the core while others it doesn't? The Lost Light wasn't destroyed at the end of issue 1. Red Alert wasn't permanently killed after all. Pharma's death was turned around. Megatron wrote books and was peaceful at first, he wasn't the violent gladiator who stood for only overthrowing good. Orion Pax was a violent man driven almost to the bring of anarchy. Shockwave was a good guy senator. This is fiction, history is up to the licensor and the licensor has deemed IDW can be allowed to create their own fiction and their own history.

Absolutely, IDW can do what they like with the property, Hasbro permitting. And while I don't always agree or like the directions they took with characters in all those examples, one thing separates them all from what's been done with Magnus: none of them replace one character with another. They are attempts to do something with a character, to grow or develop them, or to put them in danger and leave their fate unknown for awhile. Nothing you list equates with what Roberts has done with Ultra Magnus.

You can read whatever you wish as you like, but it IS too much to ask the licensed author to change his fictional construct to fit fan needs - IDW has every right to make Ultra Magnus be a dead body worn by Minimus Ambus so long as the licensor agrees, and on the philosophical angle I still would argue they have the right to make that kind of retcon, it doesn't truly change anything we've seen of the character, it only alters our perception of his legend.

I've never argued that they don't have the right to do it. Just that I disagree with it and feel ripped off by the retcon.

He is as much Ultra Magnus now as anybody, every character who has ever interacted with Ultra Magnus on the page only has interacted with this guy (unless it was a flashback).

The fact that other characters were taken in by the charade does not make Ambus anything other than a skilled impersonator.

EDIT: By the way, I'm not trying to gang up on you or single you out, I simply don't understand your take on this and would like to.

Not a problem.

I was a bit upset when IDW had Megatron & Galvatron being portrayed as seperate spark persona's. Having Goldbug & Bumblebee being seperate spark persona's also made no sense

I was optimistic that at the very least IDW would somehow fix the Magatron & Galvatron problem. Perhaps by having them merge sparks & bodies into a more powerful fused form. this would at the very least create on entity. They could always describe the merger as a way to repair both badly damaged bodies. or maybe a transporter/space bridge fusion accident.

As far as the IDW Ultra Magnus being miniums in disguise,I think it's harmless fun. it gave the writers a way to kill off a major big brute higher command ranking character on a temporary basis. Because it gives way in the writting for the real ultra magnus to make his grand return. perhaps the real one can say he was in the dark universe or lost in space somewhere.

RECENTLY,What I didn't like seeing,was IDW using the Generations IDW Armada deluxe starscream body as the newer G-1 Starscream re-drawn body in the upcoming dark cybertron 2014 TF G-1 idw comics issues.

[andersonh1]

I was a bit upset when IDW had Megatron & Galvatron being portrayed as seperate spark persona's.

I thought that was a very refreshing change from the usual variation of TFTM events. I was happy to see Megatron and Galvatron as two different people for once, and I liked the new backstory for Galvatron, making him a Transformer who predated the war and the factions.

As far as the IDW Ultra Magnus being miniums in disguise,I think it's harmless fun. it gave the writers a way to kill off a major big brute higher command ranking character on a temporary basis. Because it gives way in the writting for the real ultra magnus to make his grand return. perhaps the real one can say he was in the dark universe or lost in space somewhere.

I doubt we'll ever see the real Ultra Magnus. We're stuck with Minimus.

I picked up the current issue of MTMTE featuring Rewind's movie of the crew, and when "Magnus" introduces himself as "Ultra Magnus, duly appointed enforcer of the Tyrest Accord", my first thought was "no he's not." I'll never look at the IDW version of Magnus in the same way again, which is more than a little annoying.