More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Sparky Prime]

Yeah and I could list about a dozen or so characters that have had multiple... characters take on their persona. How many Flashes have there been? Green Lanterns? Batman? Robin? Wonder Woman? But whatever, the analogy doesn't really fit so this is kind of a moot point anyway.

How doesn't the analogy fit? The whole point of it is that multiple characters can and have taken on the same persona with out anyone necessarily knowing something had changed about that persona. Not all of those super hero identities exactly works for that analogy though since characters like Green Lantern really aren't taking over the persona. Take the Phantom as a closer example... Every time he dies, his son takes his place. Over the decades he's earned the reputation as the "Ghost that walks" because no one realizes it's a different Phantom. Zorro is a similar type of hero, given there is always someone else to take up the role. How is this version of Ultra Magnus really any different?

See, you are making that case though by essentially saying that since there wasn't any indication against this plot twist that it was there the whole time. No it wasn't. I mean are you really honestly trying to sell me on the idea that all of those other writers actually intended for Ultra Magnus to be Minimus Ambus the whole time and just never referrenced it? Because that's essentially what you're saying. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

No, that's not what I'm saying in the least. I don't see how you can confuse that so badly when I'm not suggesting this was always the plan. That doesn't mean it's fair to say other writers had written the character any differently when none of them had established any back story to suggest otherwise though. That doesn't mean they had the plot twist in mind either. They just wrote the character. You've been making the case that it's a retcon, when that isn't true. Evidence of absence isn't evidence that it was a retcon.

[andersonh1]

[ No one called Wally West an impostor for taking over for Barry Allen. Or Dick and impostor for taking over for Bruce. It doesn't matter that they weren't the original Flash and Batman. They weren't impersonating the original, rather they became part of that identity. Why would Ultra Magnus be any different with someone else taking up the legacy he'd started?

The problem with this analogy is that "The Flash" or "The Batman" aren't people. They are personas, disguises, identities created to hide the person under the mask. Multiple holders of the Flash identity don't invalidate those who came before.

A more accurate analogy could perhaps be made this way: consider the President of the United States. That's an office, held by a person. When Bush left office, Obama succeeded him. He assumed the identity and office of the President. One day someone will succeed Obama. For us to have the same situation that Roberts has created with Ultra Magnus, we would have to have a succession of people wearing Obama masks, talking with his voice, acting as he acts, and claiming to actually be Obama. But those people would not actually be Obama, they would be impostors. Do you see the distinction I'm making between a person and a created persona or identity here?

What Tyrest has done is to take the reputation and physical appearance of the real Ultra Magnus and turn that into a secret identity, so that a succession of bots impersonate the original. It doesn't make them Ultra Magnus, even though they've assumed his name and appearance. They're all impostors, all the way up to the present person pretending to be Ultra Magnus, which is of course Minimus Ambus.

And as I've said, that's my problem with this. A few issues ago, as far as I knew, I was reading about Ultra Magnus. Now I"m not, I'm reading about some guy named Ambus who is pretending to be Ultra Magnus. All of you are perfectly willing to transfer your emotional investment in the character to this new character since, retroactively, he's been Magnus all the time. I'm not. He's a new character that's replaced the one I thought I was reading about and wanted to read about, and I feel like a bait and switch has occurred.

I think it's perfectly fair and really, if they had just billed it this way from the start, that would be one thing, but they've essentially strung us along thinking we were reading Ultra Magnus when actually we were reading "Ultra Magnus". Hell, I'd even be more ok with this if they had just said from the beginning that the inner robot had a different name, but they've essentially changed his entire identity with this.

It's only to be expected in a long-running book with multiple writers that current writers will build on and alter things that previous writers have established. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There's nothing in IDW's history that says that Prowl isn't secretly a zombie driving a giant mecha that looks like Prowl, so Barber or Roberts could write that into the the storyline if they wanted. It doesn't mean it would be a good idea. Furman and Costa clearly were writing Ultra Magnus, not Ambus as the latest in a long line of Magnuses, but Roberts was certainly free to retcon everything if he wanted. It's just a bad idea to suddenly replace a major longstanding character like Magnus with a newly created nobody that we've never heard of before. Or it is in my opinion, anyway.

[Sparky Prime]

The problem with this analogy is that "The Flash" or "The Batman" aren't people. They are personas, disguises, identities created to hide the person under the mask. Multiple holders of the Flash identity don't invalidate those who came before.

The case has been made that Batman is Bruce's true identity while "Bruce Wayne" is the mask he wears. And there is more to it than simply being a disguise to hide the person under the mask. When Dick took over as Batman, they did a storyline where Twoface noticed something was off simply because he saw Batman smile and launched a campaign to try and prove this. That storyline ends with Dick convincing Twoface he was the same man under the mask.

A more accurate analogy could perhaps be made this way: consider the President of the United States. That's an office, held by a person. When Bush left office, Obama succeeded him. He assumed the identity and office of the President. One day someone will succeed Obama. For us to have the same situation that Roberts has created with Ultra Magnus, we would have to have a succession of people wearing Obama masks, talking with his voice, acting as he acts, and claiming to actually be Obama. But those people would not actually be Obama, they would be impostors. Do you see the distinction I'm making between a person and a created persona or identity here?

What Tyrest has done is to take the reputation and physical appearance of the real Ultra Magnus and turn that into a secret identity, so that a succession of bots impersonate the original. It doesn't make them Ultra Magnus, even though they've assumed his name and appearance. They're all impostors, all the way up to the present person pretending to be Ultra Magnus, which is of course Minimus Ambus.

And as I've said, that's my problem with this. A few issues ago, as far as I knew, I was reading about Ultra Magnus. Now I"m not, I'm reading about some guy named Ambus who is pretending to be Ultra Magnus. All of you are perfectly willing to transfer your emotional investment in the character to this new character since, retroactively, he's been Magnus all the time. I'm not. He's a new character that's replaced the one I thought I was reading about and wanted to read about, and I feel like a bait and switch has occurred.

I get what you mean by different person vs identity, but I don't think that analogy works at all and that you're mistaking just what this version of Ultra Magnus really is. This isn't a title given by position of political Office, nor are they merely impersonating, pretending to be the original Ultra Magnus. They're assuming his life and identity fully. Like in the movie "The Prestige", where the illusion requires a personal commitment and sacrifice that is always maintained, both on and off the stage, to become one person. It's a lot more than just assuming the identity. Just as here, they become Ultra Magnus.

It's only to be expected in a long-running book with multiple writers that current writers will build on and alter things that previous writers have established. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There's nothing in IDW's history that says that Prowl isn't secretly a zombie driving a giant mecha that looks like Prowl, so Barber or Roberts could write that into the the storyline if they wanted. It doesn't mean it would be a good idea. Furman and Costa clearly were writing Ultra Magnus, not Ambus as the latest in a long line of Magnuses, but Roberts was certainly free to retcon everything if he wanted. It's just a bad idea to suddenly replace a major longstanding character like Magnus with a newly created nobody that we've never heard of before. Or it is in my opinion, anyway.

That's a bit ridiculous. There's no president for Prowl to be a zombie. But Ultra Magnus is famous for being a character in a suit of armor which we rarely see with out the armor. Where is the retcon here? We'd never seen who was under that armor before now.

[Tigermegatron]

[ No one called Wally West an impostor for taking over for Barry Allen. Or Dick and impostor for taking over for Bruce. It doesn't matter that they weren't the original Flash and Batman. They weren't impersonating the original, rather they became part of that identity. Why would Ultra Magnus be any different with someone else taking up the legacy he'd started?

The problem with this analogy is that "The Flash" or "The Batman" aren't people. They are personas, disguises, identities created to hide the person under the mask. Multiple holders of the Flash identity don't invalidate those who came before.

A more accurate analogy could perhaps be made this way: consider the President of the United States. That's an office, held by a person. When Bush left office, Obama succeeded him. He assumed the identity and office of the President. One day someone will succeed Obama. For us to have the same situation that Roberts has created with Ultra Magnus, we would have to have a succession of people wearing Obama masks, talking with his voice, acting as he acts, and claiming to actually be Obama. But those people would not actually be Obama, they would be impostors. Do you see the distinction I'm making between a person and a created persona or identity here?

What Tyrest has done is to take the reputation and physical appearance of the real Ultra Magnus and turn that into a secret identity, so that a succession of bots impersonate the original. It doesn't make them Ultra Magnus, even though they've assumed his name and appearance. They're all impostors, all the way up to the present person pretending to be Ultra Magnus, which is of course Minimus Ambus.

And as I've said, that's my problem with this. A few issues ago, as far as I knew, I was reading about Ultra Magnus. Now I"m not, I'm reading about some guy named Ambus who is pretending to be Ultra Magnus. All of you are perfectly willing to transfer your emotional investment in the character to this new character since, retroactively, he's been Magnus all the time. I'm not. He's a new character that's replaced the one I thought I was reading about and wanted to read about, and I feel like a bait and switch has occurred.

I think it's perfectly fair and really, if they had just billed it this way from the start, that would be one thing, but they've essentially strung us along thinking we were reading Ultra Magnus when actually we were reading "Ultra Magnus". Hell, I'd even be more ok with this if they had just said from the beginning that the inner robot had a different name, but they've essentially changed his entire identity with this.

It's only to be expected in a long-running book with multiple writers that current writers will build on and alter things that previous writers have established. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There's nothing in IDW's history that says that Prowl isn't secretly a zombie driving a giant mecha that looks like Prowl, so Barber or Roberts could write that into the the storyline if they wanted. It doesn't mean it would be a good idea. Furman and Costa clearly were writing Ultra Magnus, not Ambus as the latest in a long line of Magnuses, but Roberts was certainly free to retcon everything if he wanted. It's just a bad idea to suddenly replace a major longstanding character like Magnus with a newly created nobody that we've never heard of before. Or it is in my opinion, anyway.

I agree with everything andersonh1 said.

I stopped reading the IDW TF comics 2+ years ago due to newer writers replacing older writers on titles,then re-writting stuff to make the former writers stuff non-existant,altered or sugar coated.

I got really disappointed 2+years ago during the Choas saga,When one writer intended for the saga to be filled with the D'Void villian ,Then that writer got swapped out with another writer that did a drastic re-write on the Choas sage. that replacement writer decided it was best to fill the Choas saga with countless issues of Megatron & Optimus sitting in chairs on a space ship ride to Cybertron talking about their memories together,What upset me the most was that the D'Void character barely got a few pages in the last issue of the "Choas saga" comic.

[andersonh1]

I get what you mean by different person vs identity, but I don't think that analogy works at all and that you're mistaking just what this version of Ultra Magnus really is. This isn't a title given by position of political Office, nor are they merely impersonating, pretending to be the original Ultra Magnus. They're assuming his life and identity fully. Like in the movie "The Prestige", where the illusion requires a personal commitment and sacrifice that is always maintained, both on and off the stage, to become one person. It's a lot more than just assuming the identity. Just as here, they become Ultra Magnus.

But they aren't Magnus. Let's make this even more personal. Suppose something happened to me, and I'm dead. I was on vacation or something, so no one I know is aware of this. Someone decides to disguise themselves to look like me, commit to living my life, taking care of my family and taking my career. Is that person me, or someone impersonating me? I think the answer is obvious.

None of these other bots are Ultra Magnus. No matter how much they commit to the cause and take on his persona, they aren't him. And I can't treat them as though they are. I'm being asked to accept an entirely new character in place of Ultra Magnus, and that's just a bridge too far for me.

That's a bit ridiculous. There's no president for Prowl to be a zombie.

There's no precedent for Ultra Magnus to be someone else under the armor either. The original figure is Magnus whether he's the white Prime or the white Prime with armor snapped on. So was the Dreamwave version. If it hasn't been established that someone isn't someone other than who they appear to be, why can't Prowl be a zombie piloting a mecha? The real Prowl died centuries ago and an alien took the body and has been pretending to be Prowl ever since. Why not? No one's ever said that didn't happen up to this point. It's logical, right?

Arguing from silence isn't really an argument. Just because Magnus was never shown to be someone else under the armor is no reason to suspect it was a possibility. For that matter, there was no reason prior to this to believe that it was armor at all rather than an integrated part of his body. Since we've seen the white cab several times when he's in vehicle mode, I'd like to know just where Ambus has been hiding all this time. I'm not sure, looking at that design, that there's any way he turned into that cab, though I suppose that will be the next retcon.

But Ultra Magnus is famous for being a character in a suit of armor which we rarely see with out the armor. Where is the retcon here? We'd never seen who was under that armor before now.

Why would we possibly assume he was ever anyone other than who he claimed and appeared to be?

[Tigermegatron]

I get what you mean by different person vs identity, but I don't think that analogy works at all and that you're mistaking just what this version of Ultra Magnus really is. This isn't a title given by position of political Office, nor are they merely impersonating, pretending to be the original Ultra Magnus. They're assuming his life and identity fully. Like in the movie "The Prestige", where the illusion requires a personal commitment and sacrifice that is always maintained, both on and off the stage, to become one person. It's a lot more than just assuming the identity. Just as here, they become Ultra Magnus.

But they aren't Magnus. Let's make this even more personal. Suppose something happened to me, and I'm dead. I was on vacation or something, so no one I know is aware of this. Someone decides to disguise themselves to look like me, commit to living my life, taking care of my family and taking my career. Is that person me, or someone impersonating me? I think the answer is obvious.

None of these other bots are Ultra Magnus. No matter how much they commit to the cause and take on his persona, they aren't him. And I can't treat them as though they are. I'm being asked to accept an entirely new character in place of Ultra Magnus, and that's just a bridge too far for me.

That's a bit ridiculous. There's no president for Prowl to be a zombie.

There's no precedent for Ultra Magnus to be someone else under the armor either. The original figure is Magnus whether he's the white Prime or the white Prime with armor snapped on. So was the Dreamwave version. If it hasn't been established that someone isn't someone other than who they appear to be, why can't Prowl be a zombie piloting a mecha? The real Prowl died centuries ago and an alien took the body and has been pretending to be Prowl ever since. Why not? No one's ever said that didn't happen up to this point. It's logical, right?

Arguing from silence isn't really an argument. Just because Magnus was never shown to be someone else under the armor is no reason to suspect it was a possibility. For that matter, there was no reason prior to this to believe that it was armor at all rather than an integrated part of his body. Since we've seen the white cab several times when he's in vehicle mode, I'd like to know just where Ambus has been hiding all this time. I'm not sure, looking at that design, that there's any way he turned into that cab, though I suppose that will be the next retcon.

But Ultra Magnus is famous for being a character in a suit of armor which we rarely see with out the armor. Where is the retcon here? We'd never seen who was under that armor before now.

Why would we possibly assume he was ever anyone other than who he claimed and appeared to be?

Once again I agree with the logic andersonh1 has placed forth in this thread.

With all the advanced scanning equipment that these advanced Transformers have,wouldn't the scanners have scanned the original ultra magnus a bunch of times then scanned the fakers/pretenders-ultra magnus & noticed something was wrong? it's just too hard to believe advanced Transformers don't possess technology like we do on the earth like those airport scanners,DNA samples. Since Transformers technology is beyond earth's,I'd imagine the transformers have brain wave scanners,spark scanners,voice scanners,x-ray scanners--->heck some/most transformers can adjust their eyes to see thru walls,x-ray vision,night vision,binocular vision,etc...

[Sparky Prime]

But they aren't Magnus.

They aren't the original Ultra Magnus, but they are also Ultra Magnus.

Let's make this even more personal. Suppose something happened to me, and I'm dead. I was on vacation or something, so no one I know is aware of this. Someone decides to disguise themselves to look like me, commit to living my life, taking care of my family and taking my career. Is that person me, or someone impersonating me? I think the answer is obvious.

None of these other bots are Ultra Magnus. No matter how much they commit to the cause and take on his persona, they aren't him. And I can't treat them as though they are. I'm being asked to accept an entirely new character in place of Ultra Magnus, and that's just a bridge too far for me.

I don't think that really works as an apt comparison here since, again, the way this story presents it is really going above and beyond mere impersonation and I don't think there is exactly a realistic human equivalent. While they aren't the original Ultra Magnus, they've taken his place so perfectly that apparently no one ever noticed in these millions of years. Granted it is a different pers... 'bot, but for all intents and purposes, they are also Ultra Magnus.

There's no precedent for Ultra Magnus to be someone else under the armor either. The original figure is Magnus whether he's the white Prime or the white Prime with armor snapped on. So was the Dreamwave version.

Isn't there? Until the Dreamwave comic, there wasn't even any acknowledgement of the bot inside the armor, even though everyone knew that's what the toy was. Who's to say the bot inside couldn't have a different name from the armored form? We've seen Transformers who take on different names and traits with armor and combinations like that before. There are several fans I've seen that tend to call the white cab Magnus. And in Transformers Animated, they establish Magnus is a rank, suggesting he'd been Ultra Prime before that, and possibly was known just as Ultra at one point.

If they'd said Minimus Ambus had always been Ultra Magnus, and there hadn't been another before that, would you have no problems with that?

If it hasn't been established that someone isn't someone other than who they appear to be, why can't Prowl be a zombie piloting a mecha? The real Prowl died centuries ago and an alien took the body and has been pretending to be Prowl ever since. Why not? No one's ever said that didn't happen up to this point. It's logical, right?

Arguing from silence isn't really an argument. Just because Magnus was never shown to be someone else under the armor is no reason to suspect it was a possibility. For that matter, there was no reason prior to this to believe that it was armor at all rather than an integrated part of his body. Since we've seen the white cab several times when he's in vehicle mode, I'd like to know just where Ambus has been hiding all this time. I'm not sure, looking at that design, that there's any way he turned into that cab, though I suppose that will be the next retcon.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, nor is evidence of absence evidence that something doesn't exist. You can't argue that just because there is no evidence that Prowl isn't a zombie piloting a mech that he is a zombie piloting a mech. Just as you can't argue Ultra Magnus being Ambus is a retcon when there has never been anything established that is contradicted by it. Those are both logical fallacy arguments.

Why would we possibly assume he was ever anyone other than who he claimed and appeared to be?

We wouldn't. That's the whole point!

With all the advanced scanning equipment that these advanced Transformers have,wouldn't the scanners have scanned the original ultra magnus a bunch of times then scanned the fakers/pretenders-ultra magnus & noticed something was wrong? it's just too hard to believe advanced Transformers don't possess technology like we do on the earth like those airport scanners,DNA samples. Since Transformers technology is beyond earth's,I'd imagine the transformers have brain wave scanners,spark scanners,voice scanners,x-ray scanners--->heck some/most transformers can adjust their eyes to see thru walls,x-ray vision,night vision,binocular vision,etc...

The comic establishes that the Magnus armor was equipped with "attention deflectors" which prevented anyone and scanners from figuring out it was a bot inside a suit of armor.

[Tigermegatron]

With all the advanced scanning equipment that these advanced Transformers have,wouldn't the scanners have scanned the original ultra magnus a bunch of times then scanned the fakers/pretenders-ultra magnus & noticed something was wrong? it's just too hard to believe advanced Transformers don't possess technology like we do on the earth like those airport scanners,DNA samples. Since Transformers technology is beyond earth's,I'd imagine the transformers have brain wave scanners,spark scanners,voice scanners,x-ray scanners--->heck some/most transformers can adjust their eyes to see thru walls,x-ray vision,night vision,binocular vision,etc...

The comic establishes that the Magnus armor was equipped with "attention deflectors" which prevented anyone and scanners from figuring out it was a bot inside a suit of armor.

Just because IDW gave this explanation doesn't mean it should be taken as gold nor canon. it should be dismissed because it makes no sense & is on the level of epic ridiculousness. Clearly some of those IDW TF writers needs to get fired for being so clueless in previous TF fiction & real life stuff.

Their is just no way minimus ambus could have fooled those various TF tech machines for all those years in making them believe he was the original Ultra Magnus. TF tech has brain wave scanners,spark scanners,DNA scanners,X-Ray scanners,etc...

Having Attention Deflectors built into the Ultra Magnus Armor basically means it sends back a blank signal,scrambles the scanning signal,blocks the scanner from seeing what's inside----> ONCE ANY THIS HAPPENED DURING THE SCANNING PROCESS,The transformer would have been detained,ripped apart,so the ones doing the scan could see what was inside.

The only way Minimus Ambus could have fooled the attention deflectors is if he also had the original ultra magnus's brain wave scan,a piece of his spark,some of his DNA & Other stuff,To merely possess attention deflectors is not enough to fool the advanced Cybertrian tech,as shielded/blank/scrambled images would have caused the robot to get detained & ripped apart to figure out what was going on.

[Sparky Prime]

Just because IDW gave this explanation doesn't mean it should be taken as gold nor canon. it should be dismissed because it makes no sense & is on the level of epic ridiculousness. Clearly some of those IDW TF writers needs to get fired for being so clueless in previous TF fiction & real life stuff.

It's not IDW giving an explanation, it's in the book's story itself. So it is in canon. Maybe you should read it for yourself before dismissing things.

Having Attention Deflectors built into the Ultra Magnus Armor basically means it sends back a blank signal,scrambles the scanning signal,blocks the scanner from seeing what's inside----> ONCE ANY THIS HAPPENED DURING THE SCANNING PROCESS,The transformer would have been detained,ripped apart,so the ones doing the scan could see what was inside.

That's not how the story establishes how the attention deflectors work. It's more like the perception filters from Dr. Who, which makes it seem like a police box is normal where ever the TARDIS lands. So basically, they give out false readings.

[Tigermegatron]

It's not IDW giving an explanation, it's in the book's story itself. So it is in canon. Maybe you should read it for yourself before dismissing things.

I meant,IDW gave this explantion via the writers.

If it makes no sense,it should be dismissed as canon. next your gonna tell me,you consider the pig-alien in the 1986 season 3's episode as unicron's creator "canon" because it's in a episode written by a writer.

That's not how the story establishes how the attention deflectors work. It's more like the perception filters from Dr. Who, which makes it seem like a police box is normal where ever the TARDIS lands. So basically, they give out false readings.

That's a weak/silly explanation given by the IDW Writers. The advanced TF tech would have detected this Faker in split seconds.