The modern comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade. Oh wait, and now Skybound, wheee!
andersonh1 wrote:Yeah, I'm the only one who has a problem with this. And it's because I feel like I've been cheated out of reading stories about Ultra Magnus because it's been revealed that he's never been Ultra Magnus at all. Everyone else sees it as a perfectly acceptable story twist and a good backstory for IDW's version of Ultra Magnus, whereas I see it as the equivalent of the unmasking at the end of every Scooby Doo episode. "Now Ultra Magnus, let's see who you really are!"
And who is he? Someone we've never heard of, a character that didn't exist until a few months ago. A jumped-up fan character. So was Drift, but Drift didn't replace anyone, he was just an addition to the stable of characters. Ambus has replaced Ultra Magnus. Even if he goes back to using the name and armor at the end of this storyline, we all know it's not really Magnus. It's just some guy pretending to be Magnus.
While I may not be bothered by it, was I at least right in my assessment of what's bothering you about it? It was my last post a little further up this page.
Shockwave wrote:While I may not be bothered by it, was I at least right in my assessment of what's bothering you about it? It was my last post a little further up this page.
EDIT: Apparently previous page.
You just got Bundy'd!!
Sparky Prime wrote:
andersonh1 wrote:Even if he goes back to using the name and armor at the end of this storyline, we all know it's not really Magnus. It's just some guy pretending to be Magnus.
I think this is a big part of what's tripping you up with this plot twist. Minimus Ambus isn't simply pretending to be Ultra Magnus. He might not be the original Ultra Magnus, and has another identity, but he is also Ultra Magnus.
It'd be like if the white cab of G1 Ultra Magnus had his own name, but in the armor, he is Ultra Magnus and more than one guy is capable of wearing the armor, becoming Ultra Magnus.
Yeah, think of it this way:
Minimus Ambus = Prince Adam
Ultra Magnus = He-Man
And this is basically everyone finding out that Prince Adam is actually the guy who turns into He-Man.
(Is that how He-Man worked? Was He-Man a guy who existed before Adam got the power to turn into him? I know less than dick about He-Man.)
I swear there was some other superhero/character who was a little nobody guy turning into a famous/legendary legacy hero situation, but I can't for the life of me remember who it was.
andersonh1 wrote:Even if he goes back to using the name and armor at the end of this storyline, we all know it's not really Magnus. It's just some guy pretending to be Magnus.
I think this is a big part of what's tripping you up with this plot twist. Minimus Ambus isn't simply pretending to be Ultra Magnus. He might not be the original Ultra Magnus, and has another identity, but he is also Ultra Magnus.
You don't become someone by assuming their identity. Anyone who does that is not just another version of the original person, they are an impostor.
Shockwave wrote:Ok Prowl, I think I can explain this one. I think the heart of the issue might be that up until now, we've been lead to believe that Ultra Magnus actually was the original character and that that's what we were reading about and it turned out it wasn't. Ok, like in your Jeff/Bob example, I'd be kinda pissed because the movie up to that point had me convinced that I WAS watching the exploits of the original Bob only to find out that it's not. It's like the old bait and switch. Don't sell me one thing and then tell me it's something else.
Except that when everyone else was writing him, he was meant to actually be Ultra Magnus. Roberts was the originator of the "line of Magnus successors" identity. So we were reading about the genuine Magnus until Roberts retconned everything. And a long line of Magnus impostors instead of the genuine article makes me feel like I've been cheated out of the chance to get to know IDW's Magnus.
BWprowl wrote:(Is that how He-Man worked? Was He-Man a guy who existed before Adam got the power to turn into him? I know less than dick about He-Man.)
sort of, but the short answer would be no. He-Man is the powered persona of Prince Adam. However, when Adam invokes the Power of Grayskull, he is essentially invoking the power and essence of his ancestor, King Grayskull. And, there have been others throughout Eternian history to invoke that power, but none of them were known as "He-Man". They went by other names (Vikor, Wun-Darr, He-Ro...).
EDIT: The "King Grayskull" legacy is not widely known in Eternia, so the analogy on that front wouldn't really work either.
andersonh1 wrote:You don't become someone by assuming their identity. Anyone who does that is not just another version of the original person, they are an impostor.
It isn't merely assuming an identity though. The whole concept of the Ultra Magnus armor is to maintain that Ultra Magnus never died in the first place and continue his legacy. As such, those that wear the armor aren't exactly impostors. They are taking over as Ultra Magnus. Like BWprowl was getting at, it's sort of like when one super hero takes up the mantel of a fallen one. As far as the public knows, it's still the same guy under the mask, so to speak. But that doesn't make the guy in the mask an impostor to the original.
Except that when everyone else was writing him, he was meant to actually be Ultra Magnus. Roberts was the originator of the "line of Magnus successors" identity. So we were reading about the genuine Magnus until Roberts retconned everything. And a long line of Magnus impostors instead of the genuine article makes me feel like I've been cheated out of the chance to get to know IDW's Magnus.
That's not a fair way to assess the story. Granted, the other writers may not have been writing the character to be a legacy like this, but on the other hand, they weren't writing him not to be either. And we have been reading about IDW's Ultra Magnus the entire time, just not the original one that spawned the legacy Ultra Magnus became.
Y'know what? I'm gonna side with Anderson on this one:
Sparky Prime wrote:
andersonh1 wrote:You don't become someone by assuming their identity. Anyone who does that is not just another version of the original person, they are an impostor.
It isn't merely assuming an identity though. The whole concept of the Ultra Magnus armor is to maintain that Ultra Magnus never died in the first place and continue his legacy. As such, those that wear the armor aren't exactly impostors. They are taking over as Ultra Magnus. Like BWprowl was getting at, it's sort of like when one super hero takes up the mantel of a fallen one. As far as the public knows, it's still the same guy under the mask. But that doesn't make the guy in the mask an impostor to the original.
Um... yeah it kinda does though. Because the guy under the mask is not the original. Just some other guy doing his best impression of the original. Whatever he may do with that power/persona is irrelevant, it's never going to make him the original, and thus he's always going to be a guy carrying on someone else's legacy.
Sparky Prime wrote:
Except that when everyone else was writing him, he was meant to actually be Ultra Magnus. Roberts was the originator of the "line of Magnus successors" identity. So we were reading about the genuine Magnus until Roberts retconned everything. And a long line of Magnus impostors instead of the genuine article makes me feel like I've been cheated out of the chance to get to know IDW's Magnus.
That's not a fair way to assess the story. Granted, the other writers may not have been writing the character to be a legacy like this, but on the other hand, they weren't writing him not to be either. And we have been reading about IDW's Ultra Magnus the entire time, just not the original one that spawned the legacy Ultra Magnus became.
I think it's perfectly fair and really, if they had just billed it this way from the start, that would be one thing, but they've essentially strung us along thinking we were reading Ultra Magnus when actually we were reading "Ultra Magnus". Hell, I'd even be more ok with this if they had just said from the beginning that the inner robot had a different name, but they've essentially changed his entire identity with this.
Shockwave wrote:Um... yeah it kinda does though. Because the guy under the mask is not the original. Just some other guy doing his best impression of the original. Whatever he may do with that power/persona is irrelevant, it's never going to make him the original, and thus he's always going to be a guy carrying on someone else's legacy.
It really doesn't. No one called Wally West an impostor for taking over for Barry Allen. Or Dick and impostor for taking over for Bruce. It doesn't matter that they weren't the original Flash and Batman. They weren't impersonating the original, rather they became part of that identity. Why would Ultra Magnus be any different with someone else taking up the legacy he'd started?
I think it's perfectly fair and really, if they had just billed it this way from the start, that would be one thing, but they've essentially strung us along thinking we were reading Ultra Magnus when actually we were reading "Ultra Magnus". Hell, I'd even be more ok with this if they had just said from the beginning that the inner robot had a different name, but they've essentially changed his entire identity with this.
How is fair to say previous writers wrote the character one way when there was absolutely nothing said about the character's background to suggest anything like that one way or another? It just as easily could have gone either way. They weren't stringing anyone along at all because that was only very recently established. We don't even know if the original Ultra Magnus in IDW was even meant to have an inner robot form. And I don't see they've really changed his identity with this. This is still the only Ultra Magnus we've known in the IDW's universe.
Yeah, but everyone expects that in DC because that's the norm. New characters take over superpersonas all the time, but there's always some indication that it's about to happen so readers aren't just randomly bitchslapped with a complete 180 out of nowhere.
It's fair in that you're essentially trying to make the case that this is what IDW has intended for this character all along when, as you put it yourself: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING indicated as much. If there had been signs, clues, some random (or maybe not so random) referrences that this was the case, it would be more palattable, but this is just a retcon for the sake of retcon. It's almost like Roberts is saying "Fuck Ultra Magnus, my guy is cooler so now he's Magnus".
Shockwave wrote:Yeah, but everyone expects that in DC because that's the norm. New characters take over superpersonas all the time, but there's always some indication that it's about to happen so readers aren't just randomly bitchslapped with a complete 180 out of nowhere.
I wouldn't exactly call it the norm for DC anymore, seeing how that's become more of a publicity stunt until they bring back the original character, or have retconned a lot of it from happening in the first place. And they don't always give some indication so that readers aren't "randomly bitchslapped" with a 180 on the story. Like when Superboy Prime punched the "wall of continuity" as a means to explain things like how Jason Todd randomly came back to life and aged to adulthood, shortly before Infinite Crisis rewrote the continuity anyway.
It's fair in that you're essentially trying to make the case that this is what IDW has intended for this character all along when, as you put it yourself: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING indicated as much. If there had been signs, clues, some random (or maybe not so random) referrences that this was the case, it would be more palattable, but this is just a retcon for the sake of retcon. It's almost like Roberts is saying "Fuck Ultra Magnus, my guy is cooler so now he's Magnus".
I'm not making a case that this is what IDW always intended at all. I'm saying it's not a fair assessment to say other writers had always written the character one way, when no one had really explored the character's background in the first place. Where is this retcon? What about this story contradicts anything that's been established previously? If nothing is actually changing anything that we've previously seen in this continuity, then it isn't really a retcon. And nothing about this story seems like Roberts is saying his character is cooler than Ultra Magnus. His character is Ultra Magnus. He's just put a new spin on who is inside the armor, rather than an Optimus clone. And to be fair, Roberts did build up some hints during his run.
Yeah and I could list about a dozen or so characters that have had multiple... characters take on their persona. How many Flashes have there been? Green Lanterns? Batman? Robin? Wonder Woman? But whatever, the analogy doesn't really fit so this is kind of a moot point anyway.
See, you are making that case though by essentially saying that since there wasn't any indication against this plot twist that it was there the whole time. No it wasn't. I mean are you really honestly trying to sell me on the idea that all of those other writers actually intended for Ultra Magnus to be Minimus Ambus the whole time and just never referrenced it? Because that's essentially what you're saying. Absence of evidence is not evidence.
