Comics are Awesome II

[andersonh1]

The high concept of "Earth 2" is to assume that the big event happened (you know how they go) and that the damage and changes stuck. The big name characters are dead. More than a few cities are seriously damaged/unlivable. There is still visible damage from the fights 5 years later. (On page, there is an explanation for why things did not go back to "normal" afterwards. On "Earth 2", the pantheons maintained the stasis quo before they were wiped out by Steppenwolf. If you care, there is the explanation for why the changes are allowed to stick.)

Earth-2 is the only book set in that universe, which means the writer can do whatever he wants with that Earth, and it won't affect any other book. That contributes to the ability to do anything and "make it stick" as well.

The Darkseid invasion was supposed to be a deliberate mirror of the invasion that brought the Justice League together for the first time with the New52 relaunch.

I get that the invasion mirrored the one over in Justice League, but that just makes it worse. Another Darkseid against the league storyline isn't all that original, and it's sad when the first story we see that kicks off the new DC is a retread concept.

There ought to have been a moratorium on old villains for a year, at least. Let all those creative types come up with new enemies to go with the new universe.

Even the the origins of characters powers... Jay Garrick got his speed from Mercury instead of from science or Alan Scott getting his powers from Earth instead of a magic lantern.

Jay getting his powers from Mercury was a nice idea if his origin had to change, since his original look with the winged hat and boots was meant to mimic the look of Mercury anyway. I haven't read Alan's original pre-Starheart origin story yet since I have yet to purchase his archives, but I think his power originally came from green growing things or something like that, "the green flame of life", linked with the lantern, and that's why the ring wouldn't affect them like it would metals. But I could be off base about that.

Here's a bit of the first page, but not enough to tell whether I'm right nor not. I notice they used the train crash part of his origin in Earth-2. http://ifanboy.com/articles/dc-historie ... lantern-i/

[Sparky Prime]

Earth-2 is the only book set in that universe, which means the writer can do whatever he wants with that Earth, and it won't affect any other book. That contributes to the ability to do anything and "make it stick" as well.

I wouldn't exactly say it doesn't affect any other book as it's not the only book that involves characters from that universe. World's Finest deals with their Supergirl and Robin having been transported into the main DC universe. And Mr. Terrific was transported to Earth 2. It's really only a matter of time..

I get that the invasion mirrored the one over in Justice League, but that just makes it worse. Another Darkseid against the league storyline isn't all that original, and it's sad when the first story we see that kicks off the new DC is a retread concept.

You're missing the distinction that sets this story apart... It wasn't Darkseid against the League at all, just Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. And they all died during that invasion. Where's the retread in that when the heroes usually win, with out all getting killed in the process? That's never happened before. There is no League on Earth 2. There never was. What they've got is new super heroes that only recently got their powers some years after that invasion, making this a very different Earth in many different ways.

There ought to have been a moratorium on old villains for a year, at least. Let all those creative types come up with new enemies to go with the new universe.

I'd point out the villain of the first Earth 2 storyarc was really wasn't Darkseid but was a new interpretation of Grundy.

I haven't read Alan's original pre-Starheart origin story yet since I have yet to purchase his archives, but I think his power originally came from green growing things or something like that, "the green flame of life", linked with the lantern, and that's why the ring wouldn't affect them like it would metals. But I could be off base about that.

Here's a bit of the first page, but not enough to tell whether I'm right nor not. I notice they used the train crash part of his origin in Earth-2.

To my understanding, the Starheart origin really didn't change much from the original story. It was just a way the writers came up to explain where the Lantern's power came from and shoehorn it to have some connection to the Guardians of the Universe. Otherwise, it was still simply a mystical meteor that crashed to Earth and was fashioned into a lamp, and later a train lantern...

Found a video on the history of the Green Lantern(s) which shows some images of the original comics... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYULpFwVWE

[andersonh1]

I wouldn't exactly say it doesn't affect any other book as it's not the only book that involves characters from that universe. World's Finest deals with their Supergirl and Robin having been transported into the main DC universe. And Mr. Terrific was transported to Earth 2. It's really only a matter of time..

The point is that if Superman or Batman or Justice League wanted to do an ongoing storyline where the world was being altered and scarred in the way that Earth-2 is, they'd have to coordinate with all the other DC books if they wanted a believable story. For example, It would destroy the illusion of Gotham was wiped off the map in one book, only to be intact and undamaged in another. The Earth-2 series doesn't have to coordinate its main storyline with any other series since it's the sole book set in that universe, and that helps with "changes that stick".

You're missing the distinction that sets this story apart... It wasn't Darkseid against the League at all, just Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. And they all died during that invasion. Where's the retread in that when the heroes usually win, with out all getting killed in the process? That's never happened before. There is no League on Earth 2. There never was. What they've got is new super heroes that only recently got their powers some years after that invasion, making this a very different Earth in many different ways.

I'd point out the villain of the first Earth 2 storyarc was really wasn't Darkseid but was a new interpretation of Grundy.

In both of these cases, what do we have? Old villains, old scenarios, just slightly tweaked. The same old elements we've seen for years, with only a few details changed. I'm not really seeing the creativity here.

To my understanding, the Starheart origin really didn't change much from the original story. It was just a way the writers came up to explain where the Lantern's power came from and shoehorn it to have some connection to the Guardians of the Universe. Otherwise, it was still simply a mystical meteor that crashed to Earth and was fashioned into a lamp, and later a train lantern...

That's right, and in fact I think the issue where that was done was one of the ones I reviewed in the retro comics thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1140&start=60#p40469

[Sparky Prime]

The point is that if Superman or Batman or Justice League wanted to do an ongoing storyline where the world was being altered and scarred in the way that Earth-2 is, they'd have to coordinate with all the other DC books if they wanted a believable story. For example, It would destroy the illusion of Gotham was wiped off the map in one book, only to be intact and undamaged in another. The Earth-2 series doesn't have to coordinate its main storyline with any other series since it's the sole book set in that universe, and that helps with "changes that stick".

You're overlooking that there are separate titles that do have to coordinate with Earth 2 already. Although World's Finest might take place in the main DC universe, those characters do have to stay true to the universe from which they originally came from, hence it has to stay true to things established in Earth 2. The new Superman/Batman title recently did a crossover where Superman and Batman met their Earth 2 counterparts as well, and obviously that would have to be coordinated with events from both universes. And it seems to be only a matter of time before things like that increases.

In both of these cases, what do we have? Old villains, old scenarios, just slightly tweaked. The same old elements we've seen for years, with only a few details changed. I'm not really seeing the creativity here.

How is all the heroes being killed off in the invasion, resulting in a very different climate towards super heroes on Earth 2 a "slight tweak" to an old scenario? How is Grundy going from a mobster turned zombie to an incarnation of death the same old villain? I honestly think you're ignoring a lot of elements of the story in order to generalize the book as the "same old, same old", rather than seeing how truly different Earth 2 is and thus downplaying the creativity that's actually in the title.

[Shockwave]

The point is that if Superman or Batman or Justice League wanted to do an ongoing storyline where the world was being altered and scarred in the way that Earth-2 is, they'd have to coordinate with all the other DC books if they wanted a believable story. For example, It would destroy the illusion of Gotham was wiped off the map in one book, only to be intact and undamaged in another. The Earth-2 series doesn't have to coordinate its main storyline with any other series since it's the sole book set in that universe, and that helps with "changes that stick".

You're overlooking that there are separate titles that do have to coordinate with Earth 2 already. Although World's Finest might take place in the main DC universe, those characters do have to stay true to the universe from which they originally came from, hence it has to stay true to things established in Earth 2. The new Superman/Batman title recently did a crossover where Superman and Batman met their Earth 2 counterparts as well, and obviously that would have to be coordinated with events from both universes. And it seems to be only a matter of time before things like that increases.

In both of these cases, what do we have? Old villains, old scenarios, just slightly tweaked. The same old elements we've seen for years, with only a few details changed. I'm not really seeing the creativity here.

How is all the heroes being killed off in the invasion, resulting in a very different climate towards super heroes on Earth 2 a "slight tweak" to an old scenario? How is Grundy going from a mobster turned zombie to an incarnation of death the same old villain? I honestly think you're ignoring a lot of elements of the story in order to generalize the book as the "same old, same old", rather than seeing how truly different Earth 2 is and thus downplaying the creativity that's actually in the title.

Except that having characters from Earth-2 in the main universe doesn't mean the events of one affect the other. Once those characters are in the main DCU, what happens in Earth-2 after that is irrelevant to the main DCU and the E2 characters in the DCU wouldn't be affected by them. Just like if I move to another country and this one changes radically, those changes aren't going to have any impact on the country I've moved to.

As for the event thing, I think Anderson is arguing the cause initial event is "same old, same old" while you're arguing that it's different because the outcome is different.

[andersonh1]

Except that having characters from Earth-2 in the main universe doesn't mean the events of one affect the other. Once those characters are in the main DCU, what happens in Earth-2 after that is irrelevant to the main DCU and the E2 characters in the DCU wouldn't be affected by them. Just like if I move to another country and this one changes radically, those changes aren't going to have any impact on the country I've moved to.

As for the event thing, I think Anderson is arguing the cause initial event is "same old, same old" while you're arguing that it's different because the outcome is different.

Right on both counts. I get what Sparky's saying, that the big event is allowed to have consequences that we aren't normally allowed to see, and so the story is different, but it's still Darkseid invading Earth, or his minions invading, which is nothing new.

[Sparky Prime]

Except that having characters from Earth-2 in the main universe doesn't mean the events of one affect the other. Once those characters are in the main DCU, what happens in Earth-2 after that is irrelevant to the main DCU and the E2 characters in the DCU wouldn't be affected by them. Just like if I move to another country and this one changes radically, those changes aren't going to have any impact on the country I've moved to.

I disagree. Sure while they're in the main universe they can't have a direct affect on Earth 2. But being from Earth 2, their history is obviously rooted there. Thus anything they establish about those characters prior to them leaving Earth 2 can indeed have an affect on Earth 2, or vise versa.

As for the event thing, I think Anderson is arguing the cause initial event is "same old, same old" while you're arguing that it's different because the outcome is different.

No, I'm not arguing it's different just because of the outcomes. The whole point of the first issue of Earth 2 showing a Darkseid invasion was to mirror a similar situation with the Justice League's first story arc in order to show how different the two universes are from one another on multiple levels. Going into that story, the only heroes of Earth 2 were Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Robin and Supergirl. Coming out of it, none of them were left. All andersonh1 is focusing on is that it's a Darkseid invasion story, while he's overlooking everything else.

I get what Sparky's saying, that the big event is allowed to have consequences that we aren't normally allowed to see, and so the story is different, but it's still Darkseid invading Earth, or his minions invading, which is nothing new.

You're missing the whole point of the story by only focusing on Darkseid invading Earth being nothing new. The Darkseid invasion was only shown in the first issue of Earth 2 as a means to establish how different Earth 2 is. That's it. It's not even the main focus of the first story arc in Earth 2.

[Shockwave]

Thus anything they establish about those characters prior to them leaving Earth 2 can indeed have an affect on Earth 2, or vise versa.

Have they?

was to mirror a similar situation

And that's not the same initial concept... how?

[Sparky Prime]

Have they?

Yes, World's Finest has dealt with some events that happened on Earth 2.

And that's not the same initial concept... how?

Because the invasion isn't the initial concept for both titles. It may have been for Justice League, in order to bring together and establish the team for their first story arc, but that's clearly not what it was for Earth 2, which only spent one issue on it. As I said in the rest of the sentence you quoted from, for Earth 2 the invasion served more as a point of reference to show how different their world is by comparison.

[Shockwave]

Have they?

Yes, World's Finest has dealt with some events that happened on Earth 2.

Has Earth-2 ever referrenced anything that happened in the DCU or the two characters that migrated there?

And that's not the same initial concept... how?

Because the invasion isn't the initial concept for both titles. It may have been for Justice League, in order to bring together and establish the team for their first story arc, but that's clearly not what it was for Earth 2, which only spent one issue on it. As I said in the rest of the sentence you quoted from, for Earth 2 the invasion served more as a point of reference to show how different their world is by comparison.

I get that. Honestly I can see both sides of your debate with Anderson here, but what I think he's trying to say is that he would have preferred no Darkseid invasion at all and that if the writers REALLY wanted to be "creative" they could have had the heroes die doing something else heroic instead. Maybe defending Earth from acid rain or something. I dunno, I don't really read DC enough to come up with examples, but I think you get the point and I think Anderson actually does just see it as "oh yay... yet another Darkseid invasion". Maybe he's just preferring that if they were gonna do "something" different that everything be different to the point where there's no similarities at all? I dunno, we'll have to wait for him to chime in on this, but that's what I got out of what he was saying.