Comics are Awesome II

[JediTricks]

I need to stop worrying about comics and get back to other stuff. But, damn, CBR is a good read today.

It's a good hobby, but every hobby should have its balance.

The book says that Superman is so important that the whole time Quintum is trying to clone him, bring him back in some way, the story ends on the "2" diamond shield logo vault door saying as much; and earlier in the story the time-travel confirms there will be later Supermen, so I don't think Morrison is arguing that Luthor is right about Supes holding back humanity, in fact humanity is accelerated in the series by Superman's presence, P.R.O.J.E.C.T. is proof of that.

But, the real progress is made *after* Superman leaves. People are aspiring to be like Superman. But, they progress and effort largely happen after Superman leaves at the end.

That is wildly speculative, PROJECT is going to the fucking sun in a spaceship of their own making, they are creating clones all over the place, they have a giant moon base, all of this takes place in the "now" time. Some of that progress could be an extension of that sort of thing, and Quintum says that sort of thing exists with Superman's help, not hindrance.

I saw the animated version, then read a few issues of the comic to compare, same as you. Maybe if I'd read and loved the comic first, I'd see it differently. Who knows?

Perhaps if you had stuck with it 1 more issue it would have captured you, the flavor changes a lot and even the art changes some (intentional changes to how they draw Superman occur throughout), I can see why the first 2 stories might not be grabbers on their own though, the first one especially is all about establishing the foundation of the run.

I was mistaken in saying the comics didn't add anything that the film didn't have, there's an issue that takes place in Smallville which the movie suffers from not having.


On the topic of the Flashpoint movie and making changes, apparently DC feels their characters are outdated both in look and in powers, they are self-conscious about this and don't realize that the characters are what matter, the "who" and "why" of their mainstream characters, not the "what" and "how", so they are trying to change as much as possible without losing their iconic visual appeal, but I think in the animated movies they won't risk it across the board just yet because those are more mainstream audiences who aren't as up on those changes from a visual iconographic standpoint.

[Dominic]

It has been pointed out that Superman and Quintum seem to have a cancellation effect on each other, almost as if they are "fated" to be adversaries. Q's experiments go wrong when Superman is around, and some of Q's experiments have negtive effects on Superman, that sort of thing.

In that sense, regardless of if Quintum and Luthor are the same guy, Superman is (if only thematically) a hinderance.

edit: I just read the "Ultimate Marvel" forums at CBR. And, apparently, "Ultimates" fans are pumped for "Hunger", which is the "Galactus attacks the Ultimate Universe" story that is spinning out of "Age of Ultron".

And, apparently, one of the big changes resulting from "Age of Ultron" will be that Marvel's characters will be more actively aware of the multiverse. It looks like Marvel is going the pre-Crisis DC route. I am still not sure this warranted a 10 issue hype event. (I would say it warranted 3 double sized issues, and some comic shop discussion.)


-Discussion Prone and Distracted Dom.......

[Sparky Prime]

edit: I just read the "Ultimate Marvel" forums at CBR. And, apparently, "Ultimates" fans are pumped for "Hunger", which is the "Galactus attacks the Ultimate Universe" story that is spinning out of "Age of Ultron".

It's just going to be an Ultimate "Gah-Lak-Tus" and 616 Galactus team up event isn't it? Such disappointing events Marvel is coming up with...

[Dominic]

The preview art looks more like "Galactus v/s Gah Lak Tus".

And, generally scuttle-butt has it that this is Marvel's attempt to boost sales of the "Ultimate" books by crossing them over with (and possibly making them more like) the 616 books. If this is true, the outcome is going to suprise nobody (aside from Marvel's decision makers).

There will be a short-term boost in sales. It might even bring in some new readers, with some of the increase being permanent. But, Marvel will keep going back to the well, and the big suprise event (which "Hunger" arguably is) will become routine at best and offensive at worst.

"Ultimate" was never supposed to be a functional part of Marvel's multiverse. Even after it got an official number, it was not supposed to be interacting with 616. "Spider-Men" was billed as a rare, if not one time, exception (for the purposes of the 50th Anniversary of "Spider-Man" as a property).

I would not be suprised if "Hunger" spells the end of Gah Lak Tus and a general move to make "Ultimate" more like 616. The fact that this undermines "Ultimate" as something unique and makes it redundant to 616 (to say nothing of mainstream comics in general) is apparently not a worry for Marvel. "Ultimate" was always branded as comics that were not like comics. "Ultimate", for whatever problems it has had over the years, has always been unabashedly modern and *different* from other comics.

Truth be told, if "Earth 2" were not a thing (and I were not trying to cut back on comics), I would likely be reading at least some of the "Ultimate" books. And, "Hunger" would be the last thing I would want to see, especially on a regular basis.


-Discriminating Dom......

[Sparky Prime]

The preview art looks more like "Galactus v/s Gah Lak Tus".

I dunno where you get that idea from, all the preview art shows is the Gah Lak Tus horde arriving at the rip in space where Galactus comes through from, apparently drawn to his presence. The impression I get is that they want his help since it looks like they've just been sitting around ever since the heroes of Earth managed to stop their wave of destruction.

And, generally scuttle-butt has it that this is Marvel's attempt to boost sales of the "Ultimate" books by crossing them over with (and possibly making them more like) the 616 books. If this is true, the outcome is going to suprise nobody (aside from Marvel's decision makers).

I thought the idea was to make the 616 universe more like the Ultimate universe, since the movies are based more on the Ultimate universe and Marvel wants the main universe to follow suit with the movies...

[andersonh1]

On the topic of the Flashpoint movie and making changes, apparently DC feels their characters are outdated both in look and in powers, they are self-conscious about this and don't realize that the characters are what matter, the "who" and "why" of their mainstream characters, not the "what" and "how", so they are trying to change as much as possible without losing their iconic visual appeal, but I think in the animated movies they won't risk it across the board just yet because those are more mainstream audiences who aren't as up on those changes from a visual iconographic standpoint.

I've never quite understood that attitude from DC. From a real world standpoint, the Flash's red body suit looks stupid whether it has seams or not. Superman's costume looks nothing like any clothing that a real person would wear, red trunks or not. Wonder Woman is going to have quite a few Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunctions in that outfit of hers. And so on. If a reader can suspend their disbelief and accept super powered individuals in brightly colored costumes, does a seam or two here and there really make the difference between "modern and cool" and "old fashioned and hokey"? I don't think it does.

As far as the animated movies go, I think the costume changes are going to happen. I think DC wants consistent product. But we'll have to wait until the movie is actually out to see whether that's the case.

[BWprowl]

As far as the animated movies go, I think the costume changes are going to happen. I think DC wants consistent product. But we'll have to wait until the movie is actually out to see whether that's the case.

As I said, my question is, if DC wanted to revamp their movies in the same way as the rest of their media and have the characters wearing the 'modern' costumes, why do they need a whole movie to make that happen? It's not like the previous DTV movies were all consistent universes, hell, a lot of them had different costumes for characters between movies, or even in the movie itself to show passage of time and 'eras' (both Under the Red Hood and The New Frontier did this). If DC wants to have their characters in costumes with pointless Jim Lee panel-lining all over them, just...start having them in those in the movies. No need to adapt Flashpoint to 'explain' that.

[Dominic]

dunno where you get that idea from, all the preview art shows is the Gah Lak Tus horde arriving at the rip in space where Galactus comes through from, apparently drawn to his presence. The impression I get is that they want his help since it looks like they've just been sitting around ever since the heroes of Earth managed to stop their wave of destruction.

I was getting "shit is gonna get serious" (or "cee-ree-us")vibe from the preview pages. (I saw them online, either at Newarama or CBR.) Generally "fleet surrounds a stranger in space" ends in a fight of some kind. Ah dunno. We will know for certain when the comic actually come out.

I thought the idea was to make the 616 universe more like the Ultimate universe, since the movies are based more on the Ultimate universe and Marvel wants the main universe to follow suit with the movies...

There is that as well.

I talked to the guy at the comic shop again this weekend (after picking up "Rage of the Dinobots"). He helped me sort out some of the finer details of the "blurring" pages. His reading of it (based on interviews with Bendis and Quesada) is that the intention and result of "Age of Ultron" is to make Marvel's history and future more vague. This will let Marvel modernize character origins (and finally ditch Cold War roots for some characters) and selectively drop or keep other bits of the characters' histories and futures.

He had a good point. Assuming a low-ball estimate for Marvel's on-page time (say, 12 years), the old "time slide" trick is simply not going to apply. The "rubber band" analogy (where a rubber band being dragged along, with the back half moving more slowly and stretching over time) is going to break down and *snap*.

Assuming a low-ball estimate for Marvel's on-page time (say, 12 years), the old "time slide" trick is still going to require that the emergence of heroes (Spider-Man being bitten or Reed Richard's ill-fated attempted at space flight) would have happened in the 21st Century. As he put it Spider-Man would not have swung over and through a New York with a World Trade Center, which makes the Silver-Age/Cold War elements of some character origins even more out of place.

Marvel could simultaneously do selective *and* blanket rewrites that would end up making 616 more like the movies. (This is a fair goal. But, if they are as timid and vague about those rewrites as they were with "Age of Ultron" itself, it will probably go badly.)

And, the guy at the shop also pointed out that based on what he has heard (and seen from behind his counter) the "Ultimate" brand is in serious trouble. Aside from "All New Spider-Man", sales are consistently trending down from where they levelled off just before "Ultimatum". "Hunger" is Marvel trying to save that brand. (Of course, if 616 become more like the movies, it could leave the "Ultimate" books even more redundant.)

I've never quite understood that attitude from DC. From a real world standpoint, the Flash's red body suit looks stupid whether it has seams or not. Superman's costume looks nothing like any clothing that a real person would wear, red trunks or not. Wonder Woman is going to have quite a few Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunctions in that outfit of hers. And so on. If a reader can suspend their disbelief and accept super powered individuals in brightly colored costumes, does a seam or two here and there really make the difference between "modern and cool" and "old fashioned and hokey"? I don't think it does.

They might just be trying to get away form control art derived from work done in the 1930s and 40s.

The results have been mixed. But, I can understand what DC might be trying for. But, yes, panel lines look stupid.

From a design standpoint, they undermine the "real" logic that DC is probably trying for. Superman wearing armour is redundant. But, if he is effectively on an alien world, then it almost makes sense. But, it does not look like armour. Why would armoured plating conform that much to his body and still need panels. (Remember, the seams between the panels would effectively be points of failure in the armour. The only reason to include them would be to allow for movement. But, if the armour can mould to his body, it would be flexible enough to not need additional seams as weak points.) Batman's seams would make the costume more difficult to produce and maintain. (Yes, Bruce Wayne is rich, but why would he spend more money and time on the costume than needed?)

As I said, my question is, if DC wanted to revamp their movies in the same way as the rest of their media and have the characters wearing the 'modern' costumes, why do they need a whole movie to make that happen?

Love it or hate it, or simply being indifferent, DC wants to position "Flash Point" as their most defining since "Crisis on Infinite Earths". They problably want it to have a presence in all of their media, including the movies that are (for some people) the most accessible media. So, it makes sense to pitch "Flash Point" to a wider audience.

-edit:

Here is a CBR thread about "Age of Ultron". The main thing to take away is "it was really poorly planned and defined".

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sh ... -of-Ultron

It is true that Marvel does not have the institutional know-how of DC when it comes to handling reboots. But, Marvel screwed up the basics.


-updated Dom.....

[Onslaught Six]

Batman's seams would make the costume more difficult to produce and maintain. (Yes, Bruce Wayne is rich, but why would he spend more money and time on the costume than needed?)

I seem to remember the Nolan movies at least implying that most of Batman's gear was currently/previously existing tech. Which doesn't say much for the comics, I guess, but whatever.

But, it does not look like armour. Why would armoured plating conform that much to his body and still need panels. (Remember, the seams between the panels would effectively be points of failure in the armour. The only reason to include them would be to allow for movement. But, if the armour can mould to his body, it would be flexible enough to not need additional seams as weak points.)

Think of Superman as the antithesis of Dr. Manhattan, though. Dr. Manhattan chooses not to wear clothes because he gives zero fucks about what humanity thinks of him. Superman *does* care about humanity--probably more than most actual humans do. Supes is the kind of dude who would design his armour specifically to resemble other superhero's outfits, even if it makes no actual sense for his own well-being.


As far as DC doing a "Flashpoint" flick...am I the only one who keeps forgetting that there was an entire Flash storyline in that thing, and then there was this weird reboot shit tacked onto the end of it? The animated Flashpoint may well excise the entire "universe rebooting" aspect and only adapt the Flash-specific elements.

I've been watching a bunch of Jusice League lately on Netflix (I have a trial!) and it kind of reminds me of how they dealt with John Stewart accidentally killing that planet he does in the comics (I forget what it's named). In an early ep, he goes on trial for having accidentally blown up a whole planet, which happens in the comics, but then they reveal that it was a hologram and he was framed. It's that whole "take-the-initial-idea-and-then-throw-it-in-a-different-direction" bit that always made me like Justice League, and a lot of the recent DC animated flicks.

[Sparky Prime]

I was getting "shit is gonna get serious" (or "cee-ree-us")vibe from the preview pages. (I saw them online, either at Newarama or CBR.) Generally "fleet surrounds a stranger in space" ends in a fight of some kind. Ah dunno. We will know for certain when the comic actually come out.

That isn't just any fleet surrounding any stranger though, it's basically Galactus meeting Galactus from another universe.

As far as DC doing a "Flashpoint" flick...am I the only one who keeps forgetting that there was an entire Flash storyline in that thing, and then there was this weird reboot shit tacked onto the end of it? The animated Flashpoint may well excise the entire "universe rebooting" aspect and only adapt the Flash-specific elements.

Yeah, I have to agree. Just because the "Flashpoint" storyline rebooted the comics, doesn't mean the animated adaptation will do anything like that. Most DC animated films like this are meant to be stand alone movies.