Comics are Awesome II

[andersonh1]

Comics have stories that have a beginning, middle and end. It's the characters that keep going.

[Onslaught Six]

No there isn't! Because we are perpetually in the "middle" of Tony Stark's life right now. Literally everything that has happened up to this point is still in the "middle," and very little of it has been retconned out or jettisoned, so it's just this big bulky weight of bullshit. (Three words: Teenage Tony Stark.)

[Sparky Prime]

Quit deliberately misreading posts. I meant Rhodey. For a time, Rhodey was Iron Man. IRON MAN is a marketable property--not Tony Stark.

I didn't deliberately misread it. I mentioned both Tony and Rodney in what you were quoting from. If you meant Rodney you should have said his name instead of just saying "him", because phrasing it as you did, I thought you were talking about Tony still calling himself Iron Man despite Rodney having taken over the role.

Peter Parker might be dead right now, but sure as shit is Marvel going to have a dude named Spiderman in the Ultimate universe. THAT'S the point.

That's missing the point. A new character replacing a character who dies (or what have you) is still a new character in that role even if they adopt the same super hero persona. Marvel replaced Peter Parker as Spider-Man with someone else. That's the point.

Anyone who thinks a story doesn't have to end has a problem understanding the point of stories. Homer didn't write The Odyssey, and then after Homer died, some other dude kept writing it for 50 years after that, continuing the never-ending adventures of an eternally youthful Odysseus. Conan dies a king. Beowulf doesn't live forever. The mythical Thor doesn't live past Ragnarok. Rorschach is a casualty of his beliefs. Why the hell are Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne allowed to persist?

There cannot be life without death, and a story should have three crucial parts: A beginning, a middle, and an end. The first thing they teach you is that every story has a conflict that needs to be resolved by the end. Mainstream comic characters never do this--they just deal with the same handful of problems, over and over again, forever, occasionally with some new ones being thrown on top. (To put this in perspective: Cyclops is dealing with the Dark fucking Phoenix right now, in 2013. The fact that I even typed those words makes me want to drive to Marvel's offices and burn them down.)

As andershonh1 points out, the stories in comics do have a beginning, middle and end. They are written as story arcs for a reason. It's the characters that keep going. And we aren't at the end of these characters lives for it to be the end of their adventures. Sure, sometimes the comic companies cheat a to extend their lives, so to speak or sometimes even literally, but why is that such a bad thing? If they can keep having adventures, why force it to end?

Also, Cyclops isn't dealing with Dark Phoenix right now. The story with the Phoenix Force returning to Earth (Avengers vs. X-Men) ended a few months back, with the death of the Phoenix Force. Currently, Cyclops is dealing with recruiting new mutants who are being born thanks to the Phoenix Force, while also having a reputation for being a criminal because of what he did while he was host to the Phoenix.

[Onslaught Six]

Quit deliberately misreading posts. I meant Rhodey. For a time, Rhodey was Iron Man. IRON MAN is a marketable property--not Tony Stark.

I didn't deliberately misread it. I mentioned both Tony and Rodney in what you were quoting from. If you meant Rodney you should have said his name instead of just saying "him", because phrasing it as you did, I thought you were talking about Tony still calling himself Iron Man despite Rodney having taken over the role.

Rodney? As in Rodney King? Do you think all black people look alike, Sparky? Are you a racist?! I won't be interacting with racists on this forum, and I'm pretty sure it's against the rules. Consider yourself on my friend/foe list.

That's missing the point. A new character replacing a character who dies (or what have you) is still a new character in that role even if they adopt the same super hero persona. Marvel replaced Peter Parker as Spider-Man with someone else. That's the point.

That's part of it, but you KNOW that there would be people clamouring for the original to come back, and I've never personally understood that. I liked the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider, but his go ended in 2001, and since then the character has just been a mess. I'm not saying they should go back to Ketch, but Ghost Rider could use a new guy.

As andershonh1 points out, the stories in comics do have a beginning, middle and end. They are written as story arcs for a reason. It's the characters that keep going. And we aren't at the end of these characters lives for it to be the end of their adventures. Sure, sometimes the comic companies cheat a to extend their lives, so to speak or sometimes even literally, but why is that such a bad thing? If they can keep having adventures, why force it to end?

Because it's time, man.

I mean, alright--I'll give you that they can probably write Superman and Batman comics to the end of time. Those characters are so iconic and well-known that there can be different permutations of them that are still unique and have new ideas for probably another 100 years. But then you have your second-and-third tier guys who, it's just like...

It goes back to my thing with copyright laws, and why they're fundamentally fucked up right now. DC creates Superman. Great idea! Totally cool character. Gets a lot of life and stories out of him. And then after a while, the fucking idea well runs dry for Things You Can Do With Superman. He gets too powerful, and you have to throw increasingly huge shit at him to give him credible threats, and in the end it gets to the point of ridiculousness and parody. And you have two options: Reboot him to a lesser spec, jettisoning all that crusty history that made him a pain in the ass to write for, or off him, and come up with a new idea.

Now, I'm not saying that every superhero comic has outlived its interestingness, but I think if there was a kind of fucking "level cap" on this sort of thing, it'd work a hell of a lot better--like Sentai or Kamen Rider. Those series have an idea, and they last for about a year, and then it's on to the next thing because, dude, gotta keep moving.

With every single month Superman comics continue to be published, there runs the risk of being shittier and shittier Superman comics.

Also, Cyclops isn't dealing with Dark Phoenix right now. The story with the Phoenix Force returning to Earth (Avengers vs. X-Men) ended a few months back, with the death of the Phoenix Force. Currently, Cyclops is dealing with recruiting new mutants who are being born thanks to the Phoenix Force, while also having a reputation for being a criminal because of what he did while he was host to the Phoenix.

That's dumb.

[Sparky Prime]

Rodney? As in Rodney King? Do you think all black people look alike, Sparky? Are you a racist?! I won't be interacting with racists on this forum, and I'm pretty sure it's against the rules. Consider yourself on my friend/foe list.

I blame spell check. It shows Rhodey is spelled wrong and I didn't double check it when I clicked for it to fix the spelling. Not that big of a deal, and you're taking that joke a bit too far there O6...

That's part of it, but you KNOW that there would be people clamouring for the original to come back, and I've never personally understood that.

People get attached to characters and don't want to see them killed off.

Because it's time, man.

The companies that publish the comics obviously don't agree, and I'm sure neither would a great deal of their readers.

DC creates Superman. Great idea! Totally cool character. Gets a lot of life and stories out of him. And then after a while, the fucking idea well runs dry for Things You Can Do With Superman. He gets too powerful, and you have to throw increasingly huge shit at him to give him credible threats, and in the end it gets to the point of ridiculousness and parody. And you have two options: Reboot him to a lesser spec, jettisoning all that crusty history that made him a pain in the ass to write for, or off him, and come up with a new idea.

Which is why DC has done the occasional "Crisis" story to refresh their universe so they can keep going with it. And Marvel has their own way of doing that.

Now, I'm not saying that every superhero comic has outlived its interestingness, but I think if there was a kind of fucking "level cap" on this sort of thing, it'd work a hell of a lot better--like Sentai or Kamen Rider. Those series have an idea, and they last for about a year, and then it's on to the next thing because, dude, gotta keep moving.

Yet Mighty Morphin Power Rangers merged several different Sentai series together while hanging onto the Kyōryū Sentai Zyuranger concept. And it worked pretty pretty well for them despite the Zords no longer matching the Rangers costumes. The only reason they changed to match the Sentai model is because it was more cost effective to reuse more of the Sentai footage.

That's dumb.

Yeah, as I've said, I'm not a fan of the direction Marvel has taken their stories either...

[Gomess]

I have an English degree, so I know all about literary criticism.

Me too, oh no, how will we judge which of us is right now?? =p And unfortunately, the Information Age has made it more than clear that "having a degree" =/= "knowing ALL about a subject". I've met near-uneducated people who are able to cut to the quick of a media text more than many professors I know. Your qualifications are irrelevant, especially if they restrict your views.

Yet Mighty Morphin Power Rangers merged several different Sentai series together while hanging onto the Kyōryū Sentai Zyuranger concept. And it worked pretty pretty well

But even if I weren't familiar with Sentai, I'd know just from watching MMPR and Zyuranger which one was the better-structured story. Power Rangers doesn't even come close, so what's your point...?

I just can't stand the idea that a story is "good" because it "doesn't suck THAT bad". But you did assure me there's plenty of stories you consider superior to Marvel comics, so I won't fret over it. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that you'd consider comparing Marvel comics to novels inherently flawed, as they're different media? Because I am, because I don't.

[Onslaught Six]

Rodney? As in Rodney King? Do you think all black people look alike, Sparky? Are you a racist?! I won't be interacting with racists on this forum, and I'm pretty sure it's against the rules. Consider yourself on my friend/foe list.

I blame spell check. It shows Rhodey is spelled wrong and I didn't double check it when I clicked for it to fix the spelling. Not that big of a deal, and you're taking that joke a bit too far there O6

That is the joke. The joke is how much of a stretch it would be for someone to actually accuse you of that.

I'm tired.

People get attached to characters and don't want to see them killed off.

Why not, if it's a satisfying end? I don't bitch about how Hughes dies in FMA (spoilers for a decade old anime) because he met a satisfying end for a good story purpose. I'm not clamouring for them to bring Duke back in GI Joe 3.

Yet Mighty Morphin Power Rangers merged several different Sentai series together while hanging onto the Kyōryū Sentai Zyuranger concept. And it worked pretty pretty well for them despite the Zords no longer matching the Rangers costumes. The only reason they changed to match the Sentai model is because it was more cost effective to reuse more of the Sentai footage.

And yet, the franchise has survived LONGER by using the Japanese model than if it had continued to use an ongoing storyline. (Of course, there are occasional references to the other series', but sentai does it too, and nobody on either show really sits down to work out the logistics of how that actually functions.)

Yeah, as I've said, I'm not a fan of the direction Marvel has taken their stories either...

Then stop being part of a problem by defending them!

[Shockwave]

I have an English degree, so I know all about literary criticism.

Me too, oh no, how will we judge which of us is right now??

I have long maintained that yours wins by virtue of being and English degree... FROM ENGLAND!

[Gomess]

It was a joint honours with creative writing in multimedia too, which is precisely why I've had *one* full-time job since I graduated. ...Which I got just by being honest and talking to the guy; he didn't even ask to see my CV. THANKS UNI

I do think I became a smarter, better-equipped person- especially creatively- at university, but I'll be damned if it didn't all happen in my final year, thanks to like *one* lecturer. I don't regret a single part of the social aspects, though.

...Waaaiiiit, I got my degree at Liverpool, and I think scouse is probably as much "Queen's English" as the average US dialect, so I call this one a draw. =p

[BWprowl]

I have an English degree, so I know all about literary criticism.

Me too, oh no, how will we judge which of us is right now??

I have long maintained that yours wins by virtue of being and English degree... FROM ENGLAND!

Wait, so does he have a degree in studying the English language, or in being English?

(I can't say anything, my degree is in Liberal Arts. I literally majored in Going To College)

Anyway, this discussion seems to be getting a little more heated than it needs to be, maybe we all need to step back and cool down.

Honestly, I don't have a *problem* with the situation Sparks and Anderson pointed out that comics generally have story 'arcs' with a beginning, middle, and end to them, with resolution and so forth (The reason I stuck with Johns's Lantern/Blackest Brightest Night Day books as long as I did was because I thought the story there would actually END and have some resolution eventually, but...). But I do think that if the editors pushing some of these stories wouldn't try so hard to convince us that every little thing *mattered* in the long run, and just let the stories stand on their own, independent of their big company-wide universes and using them as an excuse to pile baggage on a character that we all know is just going to get wiped or consolodated with the next crossover/reboot event. I mean, if Iron Man or Batman has to stay at a 'stock spec' to stay marketable (which I admit is a thing), just let that be what the writers 'start' writing them from, and once their arc is done and has explored how their events would effect the character, let that story be the end of that little splinter story, and the next guy who comes in just starts from 'stock spec' again and goes on his own thing.

Actually, to explain that better, you know the DC Animated movies they put out irregularly? Those generally adapt specific arcs of the comics, but instead of asking you to know about all the baggage and previous continuity that was weighing those down in comic book form, they just start from generic "This is Superman/Batman/the Justice League, come on, you already know who these guys are, they're gonna have an adventure now, let's go" and they do their thing, and then they're done, and the next movie they put out that has any of those characters just kinda starts from the same generic place and does it's OWN thing with them. It works because it lets the writers and teams behind those movies explore the characters and how different stories would have an impact on them (or vice-versa) but never gets weighed down by having to organize the continuity of them or show a 'rebooting' of the characters or universe every time because they expect the audience to understand 'this is just another story using these stock/brand-name characters that you like seeing used'. I think if the comics adopted that more idiomatic approach to telling stories with the characters, you'd see the teams behind them taking more creative approaches to using them, and new readers getting on-board because doing so wouldn't be so daunting because of all the backstory that got in the way.

At least, that's how I've always felt about it.

And yet, the franchise has survived LONGER by using the Japanese model than if it had continued to use an ongoing storyline.

Except now they're trying the old way again by having the Goseiger adaptation continue directly into Gokaiger and they'll keep using the old suits except they'll switch to the pirate suits just before they use the Ranger Key powers and Gokai Silver will be there in his pirate-themed suit all the time and argh argh argh.

I love Sentai, but why has PR been such a disaster for the last couple years? RPM was supposedly great, what went wrong? I'm terrified of what's going to happen to my beloved Go-Busters.