Re-Generation One (IDW retro G1)

[Gomess]

Autobots don't act moral because of the faction they belong to, they join the faction that promotes standards which align with their ideals.

Succinctly put Anderson, I'd never even thought of it this way before.

The morality of the characters is less important that the quality of the writing.

Aren't the two equally important to create a good story? I don't personally believe there's such a thing as Inherently Good Writing. That covers a heckuva lot of ground...... including character morality.

[Onslaught Six]

"Good Writing" can generally be surmised as, "Having an idea, and executing it to its conclusion successfully." The same way that a "good song" is one that is pleasing to hear, and makes the listener feel what the writer intended.

Autobots don't act moral because of the faction they belong to, they join the faction that promotes standards which align with their ideals.

In an ideal world, of course that would happen, but what some of these stories are trying to push--I think--is that not everybody joins a faction because it aligns with their ideals. Some of them do it because of societal pressure or other reasons. For example, in IDW, it's effectively established that there is no "neutral" faction on Cybertron (at least before the NAILs all show back up, anyway). I mean, there's characters who certainly did have a choice--read Spotlight: Blurr for a great example--but then I'm sure there are characters who just kind of get roped into a conflict because of how things go.

I mean, imagine you're going about your day, when suddenly a huge group of soldiers shows up in your town and kill all your friends and family. You have nothing left. And then the biggest, burliest one of them with six machine guns on his shoulders and missile launchers on his back and a skull for a head and a big purple face painted on his chest points a cannon to your face and says, "Join us or die." What are you gonna do?

Spoiler

(I hate to invoke Godwinn's Law, but not every Nazi soldier was a bad guy. Many of them were tricked by propoganda and youth indoctrination; a lot of them just went along with the program to save their own skin.)

The other thing is that the Autobots--as the ideal we traditionally see them as--don't quite exist that way, because the faction wasn't started by Optimus Prime. It started as a police force; it became a regime. You had dudes like Senator No-Name (Shockwave) running around doing all kinds of backhanded crap. So you have people who have already been an Autobot since before Prime was around, and then you have people who disagree with Prime's ideal but still see the Decepticons as a destructive and violent force.

Because the villain doesn't see himself as the villain--the villain is the hero of his own story. Megatron believes what he's doing is right. So does Prowl. So does Blurr and Kup, and so does Impactor and Springer. You say a TF will join the faction that best represents their ideals--if your ideal is, "I want to murder all of the Decepticons because they killed my wife/friend/dog," which side are you gonna be on? (Because for all the posturing Optimus Prime might do, he's not going to turn away an extra guy who turns into tank with six wheels, that'd just be stupid.)

[Gomess]

As a kid my headcanon for the G1 cartoon was that relative peace had been achieved on Cybertron in the 4,000,000,000 years the Ark was dormant, and yet the Earthbound Bots and Cons continued their tiny war without knowing, just because they had to. Optimus was presumed dead and given a nice statue and everything, but they were essentially yesterday's news.

The idea that factions are an inherent part of TF life is dull to me, and O6 does sum up well the fact that within a structure like that there must be exceptions to the predictable norm. If they had the *option* of joining a faction, we may consider their morals "good", but they don't.

The fact remains though, O6, that every choice you put there- including a Bot signing up for bloody revenge on the Cons- is a moral one. The individual may or may not agree with it, but it still doesn't dampen the importance of morality in crafting a good story.

[andersonh1]

In an ideal world, of course that would happen, but what some of these stories are trying to push--I think--is that not everybody joins a faction because it aligns with their ideals. Some of them do it because of societal pressure or other reasons. For example, in IDW, it's effectively established that there is no "neutral" faction on Cybertron (at least before the NAILs all show back up, anyway). I mean, there's characters who certainly did have a choice--read Spotlight: Blurr for a great example--but then I'm sure there are characters who just kind of get roped into a conflict because of how things go.

I mean, imagine you're going about your day, when suddenly a huge group of soldiers shows up in your town and kill all your friends and family. You have nothing left. And then the biggest, burliest one of them with six machine guns on his shoulders and missile launchers on his back and a skull for a head and a big purple face painted on his chest points a cannon to your face and says, "Join us or die." What are you gonna do?

Spoiler

(I hate to invoke Godwinn's Law, but not every Nazi soldier was a bad guy. Many of them were tricked by propoganda and youth indoctrination; a lot of them just went along with the program to save their own skin.)

I think that's a perfectly valid example. I try (as much as I can, anyway, given these are giant shape changing robots from outer space) to look at situations that the writers present and compare them with similar real-world situations as a way to assess credibility.

The other thing is that the Autobots--as the ideal we traditionally see them as--don't quite exist that way, because the faction wasn't started by Optimus Prime. It started as a police force; it became a regime. You had dudes like Senator No-Name (Shockwave) running around doing all kinds of backhanded crap. So you have people who have already been an Autobot since before Prime was around, and then you have people who disagree with Prime's ideal but still see the Decepticons as a destructive and violent force.

Because the villain doesn't see himself as the villain--the villain is the hero of his own story. Megatron believes what he's doing is right. So does Prowl. So does Blurr and Kup, and so does Impactor and Springer. You say a TF will join the faction that best represents their ideals--if your ideal is, "I want to murder all of the Decepticons because they killed my wife/friend/dog," which side are you gonna be on? (Because for all the posturing Optimus Prime might do, he's not going to turn away an extra guy who turns into tank with six wheels, that'd just be stupid.)

All of that is fair, and spot on. And I don't have a problem with it. It makes sense, and it makes for some good stories. But I still found it a refreshing change of pace to read Regeneration One and read about Autobots who aspire to higher ideals. I miss that type of Autobot, since they seem so few and far between in IDW's continuity.

The idea that factions are an inherent part of TF life is dull to me, and O6 does sum up well the fact that within a structure like that there must be exceptions to the predictable norm. If they had the *option* of joining a faction, we may consider their morals "good", but they don't.

The fact remains though, O6, that every choice you put there- including a Bot signing up for bloody revenge on the Cons- is a moral one. The individual may or may not agree with it, but it still doesn't dampen the importance of morality in crafting a good story.

Absolutely right.

I would say that a character's morality and the moral choices they make are essential to telling a good story. Action that springs from characters acting on their beliefs is a lot more fulfilling than characters going through the motions because the plot demands it.

[Dominic]

In an ideal world, of course that would happen, but what some of these stories are trying to push--I think--is that not everybody joins a faction because it aligns with their ideals. Some of them do it because of societal pressure or other reasons. For example, in IDW, it's effectively established that there is no "neutral" faction on Cybertron (at least before the NAILs all show back up, anyway). I mean, there's characters who certainly did have a choice--read Spotlight: Blurr for a great example--but then I'm sure there are characters who just kind of get roped into a conflict because of how things go.

Yup.

And, as I pointed out elsewhere in a different context, both sides used a form of conscription.

How many new characters where shown being built on screen/page for reasons other than bolstering an existing army? The Autobots were nearly as willing to do this as the Decepticons. (Ironically, the only exception I can think of to this rule are the Fun Publications "Classics" Minicons, and we all know what happened to them......) In fact, this was the whole premise of Dreamwave's "Micromasters" series.

As a kid my headcanon for the G1 cartoon was that relative peace had been achieved on Cybertron in the 4,000,000,000 years the Ark was dormant, and yet the Earthbound Bots and Cons continued their tiny war without knowing, just because they had to. Optimus was presumed dead and given a nice statue and everything, but they were essentially yesterday's news.

You should probably read Dreamwave's second miniseries. (Hey, they actually went with this idea.) Shockwave more or less united the planet, and it was not really *that* bad of a place to live.

All of that is fair, and spot on. And I don't have a problem with it. It makes sense, and it makes for some good stories. But I still found it a refreshing change of pace to read Regeneration One and read about Autobots who aspire to higher ideals. I miss that type of Autobot, since they seem so few and far between in IDW's continuity.

What about Optimus Prime, Jazz, Blaster, Bumblebee, Ratchet, Wheeljack, Tracks.....? It just happens that there are some Decepticons who also aspire to higher principles and ideals.


Dom
-and, that idealism is *more* demonstrable when compared to the less principled characters.....

[Gomess]

You should probably read Dreamwave's second miniseries. (Hey, they actually went with this idea.) Shockwave more or less united the planet, and it was not really *that* bad of a place to live.

I did, and it was the first thing to get me excited about DW's take on G1, only to quickly spiral into nothingness. Because obviously it just turns out that Shockwave is bad and Ultra Magnus is good and Cybertron isn't really any nicer a place to live than it was before.

The constant need to return to the status quo is one of the franchise's more aggravating- but understandable, given the nature of the beast- qualities. You'd think the comics, of all its media, could get around this.

[Dominic]

That is the thing, Shockwave really was not that bad. The only guys he was going to kill out of turn (if I recall correctly) were Prime and his team. And, that would have been a valid political move to keep the peace.

[Gomess]

Uh.. He was using magic waves to make the populace more violent.

Also long-established inhumane cloning experiments. It was all just a bit more on the nose than I was hoping for.

[Onslaught Six]

The constant need to return to the status quo is one of the franchise's more aggravating- but understandable, given the nature of the beast- qualities. You'd think the comics, of all its media, could get around this.

S'what MTMTE is for! (RID is having its issues right now, but we're talking about that there.)

[Dominic]

I need to reread the Dreamwave series apparently. (I vaguely recall the cloning, but not the hate waves.....)


Dom
-people need to wait and see with "Robots in Disguise".