Comics are Awesome II

[Sparky Prime]

If that were the case, what about all those stories he wrote about Damien being alive and Batman in the future?

With how often the timelines change in comics or characters actually stay dead in the first place?

[BWprowl]

If that were the case, what about all those stories he wrote about Damien being alive and Batman in the future?

With how often the timelines change in comics or characters actually stay dead in the first place?

Wait, so you're implying that Grant Morrison always intended for Damien to be killed off, but still accounted for the fact that he would likely be restored to life somehow later down the line?

...you know what, given that this is Grant Morrison (and comic books) that we're dealing with here, I can actually buy that. Match point Sparky.

[andersonh1]

Daredevil 22 and 23

In the past I've never been able to get into Marvel and their characters (apart from a few years reading Peter David's Incredible Hulk in the early 90s), so the fact that I've stuck with this book for a year and a half should tell you something. Mark Waid apparently understands that he's writing a 20 page comic book, not a novel or a movie, and he tailors his plots accordingly. Sure, there's an overarching plotline that pops up every few issues, but the entire run of the book has been a series of 1, 2 and 3 issue storylines, told and done without dragging on for six issues or more. The pace is great. A lot happens in this book, the plot keeps moving and things stay interesting, even if these two issues in question have the standard super-hero fights as filler in between character moments and feel a little more generic than they should. Matt Murdock is a super-hero that's got just enough ability to make him interesting, but not so much that he's invincible and invulnerable. It doesn't take cosmic-level threats to challenge him. This book ought to be a template for how to write super-hero comics.

Issue 22 has Doc Ock/Superior Spider Man trying to take down Daredevil as hinted at last issue. Matt knows Spider-Man isn't acting right, but it's a case of the audience knowing what's up while Daredevil never figures it out. Stilt-Man has to be one of the most absurd villains ever, but the book treats him as a bit of a joke, even with his enhanced abilities. And then the hammer drops at the end of the issue, leading into...

Issue 23, or Foggy Nelson has

Spoiler

cancer

. Maybe. The end of the issue would seem to confirm that he does. Mixed in with that storyline is an intriguing storyline involving someone trying to duplicate the accident that both blinded Matt Murdock and gave him his abilities. And I wonder if we're finally getting closer to finding out who has been after him.

It's a good book. It always keep me wanting to know what's going to happen next.

[Dominic]

Then what's the grade for the actual issue itself?

It is hard to say. This is one issue of a Morrison run that arguably goes back 5 or 6 years (to the lead-in to "Final Crisis").

Morrison typically does not reward single-issue readers. Some of the early analysis of this issue on dedicated comic forums indicates that he delivered the goods though.

This is alongside whining about "bawwww, the killed Damien!" and legitimate questions about why they did not kill Damien before or during "Flashpoint". (It shoudl be remembered that the Superman comics went about a year after "Crisis on Infinite Earths" without a full reset. This could be a similar situation.)

As for the various "future" Damiens, Morrison has always embraced a multivers in his writing. That problem solves itself.


Dom
-needs to go back and read all of Morrison's bat run apparently.

[Sparky Prime]

This is alongside whining about "bawwww, the killed Damien!" and legitimate questions about why they did not kill Damien before or during "Flashpoint". (It shoudl be remembered that the Superman comics went about a year after "Crisis on Infinite Earths" without a full reset. This could be a similar situation.)

I've seen a lot of mixed reactions from fans about Damian's death actually. And I still don't see what legitimate questions there are for this not happening before/during Flashpoint? I know there is some timeline issues, but everything in the New52 does at this point.

[Dominic]

Damien was an especially glaring problem though. DC set up a 5 year timeline, and Damien was depicted as 10 or 11.

There is some speculation, (and it is difficult to completely discount), that Damien died because of the timeline issues he raised. And, if that is the case, why did they not just write him out, (similar to Lian/Speedy), before "Flashpoint"?

Most, if not all, of the negative reaction seems to follow the two lines of thinking I mentioned above. "Killing characters is bad" and "it would have made more sense a year and a half ago".

[Sparky Prime]

Damien was an especially glaring problem though. DC set up a 5 year timeline, and Damien was depicted as 10 or 11.

The 5 year timeline is from when Bruce started working as Batman. He spent years before that traveling the world training to be Batman. Isn't it possible Bruce could have gotten the attention of Ra's al Ghul and Talia early on during his training? Or another theory I've seen, we know Talia created a clone of Damian that she sped up the aging process of to make him a full grown adult and seeing as Damian himself spent his gestation in a laboratory, isn't it possible she could have slightly sped up his development as well?

There is some speculation, (and it is difficult to completely discount), that Damien died because of the timeline issues he raised. And, if that is the case, why did they not just write him out, (similar to Lian/Speedy), before "Flashpoint"?

It wouldn't make any sense to kill Damian off after the fact to fix issues with the timeline. He's still a part of that timeline now regardless. As such, I can't see that as being a reason why they would kill him now, over a year after the reboot.

Most, if not all, of the negative reaction seems to follow the two lines of thinking I mentioned above. "Killing characters is bad" and "it would have made more sense a year and a half ago".

The negative reactions I've seen are primarily just people who simply liked the character.

[Dominic]

Massive write-arounds and "this...but....genetic engineering" are exactly the kind thing that nobody wants to deal with right after a massive reset that was intended to simplify things. Damien was problematic in this regard. (It was almost as if the Bat-books were balancing out. After getting through several previous resets with no real changes and no real complications, the Bat-books are now having some of the most problems adjusting to things post "Flashpoint", while DC has made sweeping and hard changes to other books with little editorial difficulty. People may not be happy with "Earth 2", but there is no ambiguity about context.)

Killing Damien arguably fixes the preceived problem in one or two ways.

At the most basic level, it removes him from the board and gets him out of people's minds. (This is standard procedure for comics to handle kid characters.) Years ago, Claremont pointed out that one of the problems with having a shared setting is that everybody needs to be on board for things like passage of time. If he wrote a story where Kitty Pride turned 18, he would effectively age every other 616 Marvel character by 2 or 3 years. Kid characters invite exactly that sort of trouble, so most editors simply do not want to deal with them.

And, as I pointed out above, there is precedent (Superman after CoIE in 1985) for some books to be playing by the "old rules" after a massive reset only to be reset themselves a year or so later. Killing Damien now arguably gives DC a way to fall back on this.

Alternatively, maybe Morrison planned this from day one, and DC will have to bear the cross of Damien until the next big reset.


Dom
-not saying it was at all well planned, regardless of how it went down.

[Sparky Prime]

Massive write-arounds and "this...but....genetic engineering" are exactly the kind thing that nobody wants to deal with right after a massive reset that was intended to simplify things.

Being more than a year after the reset, I don't think we're in the "right after" phase anymore. Besides, DC has made it anything but simplified with how they've decided to reset somethings and not others.

Killing Damien arguably fixes the preceived problem in one or two ways.

It doesn't actually fix anything though. He's a part of this timeline already. Killing him off now doesn't change that.

And, as I pointed out above, there is precedent (Superman after CoIE in 1985) for some books to be playing by the "old rules" after a massive reset only to be reset themselves a year or so later. Killing Damien now arguably gives DC a way to fall back on this.

I might buy that if it was only Batman Inc. Damian appeared in and it was completely isolated from the other Bat-titles and New 52. But that isn't the case here at all.

Alternatively, maybe Morrison planned this from day one, and DC will have to bear the cross of Damien until the next big reset.

I think that's the most likely event here.

[Dominic]

I might buy that if it was only Batman Inc. Damian appeared in and it was completely isolated from the other Bat-titles and New 52. But that isn't the case here at all.

Superman and Hawkman circa 1986 say otherwise. DC was an editorial clusterfuck for a year or two after "Crisis on Infinite Earths".

Like I said, it is all speculation. But, there is precedent for this sort of thinking.

In theory, DC could come out and edit Damien out by decree with minimal damage to other books.


Dom
-figures "wait and see" is the best way to go.