Comics are Awesome II

[Sparky Prime]

Wow. Peter Parker as a loser idealization character. Those are some great comics there. (Place joke about having outgrown Spidey ~20 years ago.)

Joking aside, the complaints sound like they are from the sort of fan who is identifying more with fictional characters more than real people. "I need Peter Parker to be Spider-Man because it gives my life meaning!"

See, this is why you should read a story more for the characters Dom. You wouldn't completely misunderstand this sort of complaint from fans. Peter isn't a loser idealization character, he's meant to be joe-anybody that just happens to have spider powers to be more relatable to the audience, hence the "Parker luck" that keeps his powers from going to his head and keeps him humble. He does have success in his life, although you might not realize that with how the Marvel writers have handled the character in recent years. And these aren't fans who identify more with fictional characters than they do real people. They're just people who don't want to see one of their favorite characters ruined in their eyes.

[BWprowl]

And these aren't fans who identify more with fictional characters than they do real people. They're just people who don't want to see one of their favorite characters ruined in their eyes.

What about all the people in the letters page I mentioned who specifically said they liked Peter because they identified with him and disliked killing him off and replacing him with Otto because they couldn't relate to the character anymore?

Seriously Sparks, the most common adulation of Peter Parker/Spider-Man is "He's a regular guy, JUST LIKE ME!" Lots of people like Peter because, even though he exists in a temporal anomaly alotting him 48 hours to a day so he has time to go to college, hold down a photography job, invent web fluid and Spider-tracers, swing around the city on patrol, get into adventures with the super-villains he encounters while out on patrol, do detective work to uncover their schemes, and still have the opportunity to have great sex with supermodels and smokin' hot cat burglars (not to mention complain about what a pain in the ass all of the above is and how being Spider-Man is just NO FUN AT ALL), he has trouble paying his rent sometimes, and that makes him RELATABLE!

[Sparky Prime]

What about all the people in the letters page I mentioned who specifically said they liked Peter because they identified with him and disliked killing him off and replacing him with Otto because they couldn't relate to the character anymore?

I don't see how that goes against what I said. Identifying with a character doesn't mean they identify with that character more than they do with real people. All they're saying is that they can relate to the character as a 'joe-anybody' type with real world problems, just like anyone and they hate what's become of the character with Doc Ock not being the ideal character for the role. This is not beyond reason in the least.

[Dominic]

Let me rephrase it.


Too many comics fans are too attached to their fictional characters and worry too much about keeping said characters "safe". (As much as I disagree with much of what he says, Grant Morrison had a point in "Super Gods". If comic fans cared as much about real world problems as they do about their favourite characters, the world would likely be a much different place.) Peter Parker is not a good unto himself. Peter Parker exists for comics, not the other way around.



And, I got one new, non-TF, book this week.


Team 7 #5:
This issue, "Team 7" transitions to the present day DCU. The first and last few pages are set now, framing the remaining pages which, like the previous four issues, are set at the beginning of the 5 year gap established after "Flash Point". Spartan, another Image character, is introduced (if only off-handedly), to modern DC comics as part of the flashback. Hank Henshaw also puts in an appearance as a scientist at a cybernetics lab. He is not the cyborg (nor even overtly malicious) yet, but it is a safe bet that something will happen to make him go nutty. Both the flashback and the present day sequences end "to be continued". And, the next issue blurb mentions Mister Majestic (also an old Image character). Given the context and pacing of the issue, part of me is half-sarcastically wondering if Henshaw is doomed to become Majestic.



Dom
-slowly catching up on comics.

[BWprowl]

Scarlet Spider #14:
And here I’m wishing I was more familiar with that ‘The Other’ plotline Spider-Man went through a few years ago, given that Kaine’s current situation is apparently building off of that. This issue has him staring down a psychological manifestation of this “Other” as he lays effectively dead from his werewolf-mauling last issue, and concerns him deciding which part of his ‘heroic’ nature to embrace, the end-point being that it was never in question whether Kaine was a hero or not, but that he had to accept that he wasn’t really human, due to his clone-itude. The issue ends with him embracing that, feeling that it’s worth it to give up trying to be human if it means he can be a hero (and save Aracely in the process, which is the more pressing matter). It continues along with the theming that I’m liking so much in this book, that Kaine will give anything just to make this heroing thing work, even his hard-earned humanity. Now admittedly, this storyline will likely end with Kaine’s monster/other/whatever form receding leaving him back at being normal old Kaine/Scarlet Spider, but the development he’s gotten going towards this so far has been satisfying, and likely would be even more so had I been keeping up with this from day one (the first trade came out this week, maybe I’ll grab it when I hit the comic shop again on Friday). I’ve only been reading for a few issues, but I can see that this is a solid, satisfying series. I’m sorry I avoided it initially.

I had noticed previously that Kaine had the organic webbing and ‘stingers’ from Spidey’s ‘The Other’ powerset, and had wondered how it tied in here. Guess I really need to read the early issues, not to mention Spider-Island, where Kaine returned, apparently.

There’s a Marvel Legends figure of Kaine/Scarlet Spider coming out, and I already definitely want it.

[Sparky Prime]

Too many comics fans are too attached to their fictional characters and worry too much about keeping said characters "safe". (As much as I disagree with much of what he says, Grant Morrison had a point in "Super Gods". If comic fans cared as much about real world problems as they do about their favourite characters, the world would likely be a much different place.) Peter Parker is not a good unto himself. Peter Parker exists for comics, not the other way around.

There is a difference between keeping a character "safe" and frankly just trying to piss off fans. I mean, literally, Marvel's solicitations for Superior Spider-Man #9 calls it: "a turning point that will get you angrier than you were after Spidey #700". That's what Marvel is banking on here, the controversy of what they're doing to piss off people rather than focusing on trying to tell good stories. And the point here isn't that Peter Parker isn't a good unto himself. The point is that Peter Parker isn't even Peter Parker anymore. Now he's Otto Octavius. It's got nothing to do with being too attached to a fictional character Dom, it's just about fans simply being angry about how Marvel is treating their favorite character. Not sure why this always seems so difficult for you to get why they'd be pissed off like this.

Sparky
-If everyone, not just comic book fans, cared more about real world problems, the world would be a very different place

[BWprowl]

There is a difference between keeping a character "safe" and frankly just trying to piss off fans. I mean, literally, Marvel's solicitations for Superior Spider-Man #9 calls it: "a turning point that will get you angrier than you were after Spidey #700". That's what Marvel is banking on here, the controversy of what they're doing to piss off people rather than focusing on trying to tell good stories.

I know, I'm effing loving it. You have to at least give Marvel credit for being up-front about this here, instead of pretending that what they've got is solid gold that everyone's going to love.

It's got nothing to do with being too attached to a fictional character Dom, it's just about fans simply being angry about how Marvel is treating their favorite character.

Okay, but *why* are those fans pissed off about how the company (who owns the character, BTW) is treating the fictional character? It's a fictional character, there's no reason to be legitimately angry about what the company that owns them does to them. But they're getting riled up anyway because they are too attached to the character.

It's like, you would say that fans are attached to Peter Parker, right? That's why they enjoy reading about him and identify with him and are sad to see him killed off, right? If they didn't have any attachment to him, then that sort of thing wouldn't be an issue. So wouldn't getting actually angry and sending frothing letters about it to the comic book that published said death qualify as being a bit *too* attached to Peter Parker?

[Sparky Prime]

Okay, but *why* are those fans pissed off about how the company (who owns the character, BTW) is treating the fictional character? It's a fictional character, there's no reason to be legitimately angry about what the company that owns them does to them. But they're getting riled up anyway because they are too attached to the character.

It's like, you would say that fans are attached to Peter Parker, right? That's why they enjoy reading about him and identify with him and are sad to see him killed off, right? If they didn't have any attachment to him, then that sort of thing wouldn't be an issue. So wouldn't getting actually angry and sending frothing letters about it to the comic book that published said death qualify as being a bit *too* attached to Peter Parker?

Sure, fans are attached to the character, but how it is "too attached" for just getting angry about how Marvel is handling the character? How is there no reason to legitimately get angry about a story that you hate because of what it does to a favorite character, that Marvel is *intentionally* doing just to get exactly that reaction from fans? You and Dom make it sound like it's totally irrational to be attached to a character at all, when it isn't. If you like a character, you're not going to want to see them mind swapped for a villain. It's that simple. Why is that attachment a bad thing to you guys?

[BWprowl]

You and Dom make it sound like it's totally irrational to be attached to a character at all, when it isn't. If you like a character, you're not going to want to see them mind swapped for a villain. It's that simple. Why is that attachment a bad thing to you guys?

Well I can't speak for Dom, and I certainly agree that Superior Spider-Man isn't Marvel firing on all cylinders. Quite the opposite, I feel it's a spectacularly stupid idea on par with Star Wars bringing Darth Maul back to life and giving him a pair of robot legs to walk around on.

But there's acknowleging something is a stupid idea, there's being attached to a character, and then there's being *too* attached to the point that your attachment to that character limits your capacity to accept new stories. The way I see it, Peter Parker's been starring in Spider-books since 1960, over fifty years. There's plenty of backlog of stories, not to mention cartoon and film adaptations, that if you haven't had your fill of Peter Parker at this point, or have a decent catalog of well-worn past favorites to go back to in order to get your Parker fix, you're probably in the grips of being what I could credibly call 'too' attached to the character. Ignoring that switching his brain with Dr. Octopus and killing him off is a stupid, stupid, stupid idea, fans like this probably wouldn't be receptive to replacing Peter even if it was done well, with a *good* idea. Just look at the letters in the back of the issue, where they're mostly complaining about Otto because he's 'not Peter', some of them acting as if they honestly believe Marvel plans to keep him killed off for good (have these people never read a comic book before?). Look, you can be sad that a character you liked died, but at the end of the day, that character isn't real and you should probably be over it by the time you're done reading the issue.

I've gotten 'attached' to characters before, don't get me wrong. You ever watch Fullmetal Alchemist? I originally started watching partway through the first season (of the first series) with characters making offhanded references to the death of a character named 'Nina' that had been a major event, apparently. So when I went back and watched the earlier episodes, and Nina showed up, I immediately steeled myself, going "You know this adorable, lovable little girl gets killed off, so don't get attached", but she was lovable and adorable, so OF COURSE I got attached, and when Nina suffered what I consider to be THE most horrific demise in all of fiction, it hit me hard. But I didn't write Funimation or Studio Bones or Hiromu Arakawa complaining about what monsters they were for writing that part of the story where a cute little girl died in a terrible, terrible way. I accepted it as part of the story, and moved the hell on, the way supposedly mature grown-ass men reading the lead-up to Superior Spider-Man should be able to. It's just fiction, you can't get genuinely upset about what happens in it, you should just roll with it. And given that there's fifty years and thousands of issues of prior Spider-material starring Peter Parker, it's not that hard for them to go back and read stories about him that they DO like.

Spoiler

That said, I do know at least a couple of people who had to quit watching Fullmetal Alchemist after the Nina episode.

[Onslaught Six]

Of course they would react badly if the new Spiderman was "not Peter." Remember the entire end half of the Clone Saga? People shunned Ben Reily simply because he "wasn't Peter Parker," even though he literally was Peter Parker.