More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Shockwave]

Here's my thing: Does it even count as "gay"? They're robots. They're inherently without gender (with the exception of Arcee) so can asexual beings even HAVE gay relationships? Or even romantic ones?

Case in point: If I die, I'm leaving my toy and comic collection to my best friend. He's male. But, I have no romantic attachment to him. He's a "significant other" as technically defined by that term, meaning that he's an other person who is significant in my life. I regard what was said about Chromedome and Rewind to be much the same way. Rewind essentially willed all of his stuff to his best friend.

Shipping would be if there was an explicit sex scene involving the two for absolutely no plot reason at all just because the writer decided that they should. And that's not what happens here.

[andersonh1]

This issue tried too hard to be clever with the storytelling to suit me. It jumped all around, and frankly, lost me about halfway through.

[Dominic]

It was easy enough to follow. The negative numbers were "before the big event" and the positive numbers were "after the big event". The problem is that the big event was kind of predictable. (My only initial question was if the "big event" was going to be an explosion or the start of the fight (a mission clock).

No joke: As soon as I read 12, I said out loud: "Oh man, Dom's going to HATE this."

You should have seen me reading it. Seriously, I was getting more annoyed with every page. I actually made a point of dropping the book the next time I went to the comic shop. And, then I reread all 12 issues and the annual, which only affirmed my choice. (Then, I reread some of RiD, and loved every panel of it.)

"read like fanfic" (WHATEVER THE FUCK THAT MEANS) and it didn't "count as shipping."

"reading like fanfic" is one of "those things" that we all know and understand the meaning of. Do we really need a 10 page digression defining it?

We know the stereotypes of fanfic, and we know that they have an uncomfortable basis in truth...because fanfics have certain cliches that (until fairly recently) were generally unique to fanfic. MtMtE is loaded with them. Besides the shipping, MtMtE has memes and "great moments" (wow, Minicon movie night!) but little actual story. "Its Transformers guys, and they are going stuff! Awesome!"

Yeah, there are gay robots in the comic that stars nothing but robots. How is this any different from the gay people comics that DC's Earth 2 is?

Because it is gay robots. I am not against gay robots because they are gay. I am against gay robots because gay robots are fucking stupid.

Just as I dislike people who live/act down to stereotypes about themselves, (Irish or Russian drunks are slightly more offensive than other drunks, subt-literate Italian brutes are worse than brutes of other descent, you get the idea), I dislike fandoms and properties that deliver on stereotypes. "Gay robots" is writing down to the level of Encyclopedia Dramattica mockery, and then saying "there is nothing wrong with it". This is the kind of shit that used to show up in the worst fanfics.

Now, Saint James is taking those elements and saying they are okay by putting them in official media.

Side-point: I never saw you complaining that Alan Scott's relationship with his boyfriend was 'shipping', so what's the difference? Quantify it for me. Because all you keep doing is going on like this:

Alan Scott and his boyfriend are not gay space robots.

Please define for those of us that don't use your versions of the terms (and also don't speak Latin, PS) what 'reads like fanfic' entails? Because all I'm seeing is a comic by a writer who happens to enjoy writing Transformers. Look, I know that a comic by a guy who specifically did not enjoy writing Transformers (Costa's run) was something we both enjoyed, but that doesn't mean that the opposite is automatically the worst thing ever.

Malum in se: wrong in and of itself.

Again, we all understand what fanfic is. And, I hope that we, both as a forum and a fandom, see the problem with fanfic.

This book has shipping. It has "TFs are just like people, complete with having movie night". It has memes, such as "nightmare fuel". It is loaded with those great "clever" fan/character moments.

Here's my thing: Does it even count as "gay"? They're robots. They're inherently without gender (with the exception of Arcee) so can asexual beings even HAVE gay relationships? Or even romantic ones?

This gets in to the question of immersion, similar to what Gomess brought up months ago in the video game thread. I forget the exact question being argued. But, the defense was "in-story reason for this stupid thing". Gomess' response, (which I actually agreed with), was basically "the whole story is written by somebody in the real world and they make the stupid thing happen". Gomess went on to say that at some point, one had to step out of/back from the game and recognize that.

In this case, Rewind and Chromedome are described as being "significant others". We all *know* what that term means. Why would Saint James be using it unless he was implying that the "special bond" between Chromedome and Rewind was more than friendship? What does that mean and why did Saint James Roberts put it in?


There is nothing wrong with gay fictional characters, (nor is there anything wrong with gay real people). But, gay robots are fucking stupid to the point of sounding like a parody of the kind of things that people would say is wrong with a comic about space robots. (And, yes, they are "gay" in this case. TFs are typically written as male. This gets in to that immersion thing mentioned above.) In this case, it is one more thing that reads like part of a stereotypical fanfic in a book that is saturated with those sorts of plot points.



Dom
-seriously, Minibot movie night?

[Shockwave]

The problem with this is that it doesn't really allow any sort of way for Cybertronian interpersonal relationships to be explored with it seeming like "Shipping" to you. I've said this before but you are way too worried about what the rest of the fandom thinks. I also dunno why you're calling him "Saint James" the guy has no more clout with the fandom than any other writer. Honestly, Roberts was telling a story that involved a personal relationship. It stands to reason that such things would happen in any society. It didn't go sexual which is where it would have crossed the line into actual shipping. And really, it shouldn't go that route anyway. Again, they're robots. They don't reproduce sexually so their personal relationships are going to lack that aspect to them anyway.

"Nightmare fuel". I don't know how that qualfies as a meme.

"minibot movie night" This complaint is on the same level as those that were made at the beginning of the year by some parts of the fandom whining "TeH Roborts am not fighting!". Seriously, what's wrong with seeing TFs doing normal shit?

[Dominic]

Minibot movie night is just.....ugh. "Wow, TFs are watching movies on a projector! This is so awesome!" Seriously? Alien space robots...watching projector movies. Guys like Costa or Furman, going all the way back to Starkings in the UK, have made fodder of them being *aliens* and thus different from us. Saint James's stuff tends to read like those old fanfics that basically portrayed TFs as big metal people. (Roberts has even had TFs referred to as "people" on the page.) The tone and content are very fannish.

The name "Saint James" was born of my annoyance with the fandom giving him passes on things they would normally complain about.

"Nightmare fuel". I don't know how that qualfies as a meme.

Like most memes, it is documented on TV Tropes (a guilty pleasure for a few of us).

"lololololol, Saint James is using memes that we know! Awesome!"



Dom
-no more fanfic, please!

[BWprowl]

"reading like fanfic" is one of "those things" that we all know and understand the meaning of. Do we really need a 10 page digression defining it?

I’d say apparently we do, given how we keep asking you to define it since the majority of us do not know what you are talking about.

Again, the *only* TF fanfic (and almost all of the fanfic I’ve read, period. I’ve written some, but that was…something else entirely) is DvD’s stuff, and the trappings of that entails characters having discussions and getting into situations that explore concepts within the fiction of the franchise and serve to provide possible explanations for elements other writers may have glossed over. Which again, more describes Costa’s run on the Ongoing than anything in MTMTE. This is the only frame of reference I have for ‘reads like fanfic’.

Because it is gay robots. I am not against gay robots because they are gay. I am against gay robots because gay robots are fucking stupid.

Just as I dislike people who live/act down to stereotypes about themselves, (Irish or Russian drunks are slightly more offensive than other drunks, subt-literate Italian brutes are worse than brutes of other descent, you get the idea), I dislike fandoms and properties that deliver on stereotypes. "Gay robots" is writing down to the level of Encyclopedia Dramattica mockery, and then saying "there is nothing wrong with it". This is the kind of shit that used to show up in the worst fanfics.

Now, Saint James is taking those elements and saying they are okay by putting them in official media.

Okay, first off, just because you’re somehow uncomfortable with the idea of robots in romantic relationships (and I’ll get to that in a second) that still doesn’t make said relationships ‘shipping’.

Transformers, despite technically being alien space robots, have generally always been portrayed as giant metal people. The closest we’ve ever gotten to an ‘alien’ portrayal of them was in the live-action movies, and arguably Costa’s ongoing. Going back to the earliest IDW comics, we’ve seen Transformers participate in sports, get drunk in bars, get high in bars, practice politics, become mentally ill, dream while sleeping, enjoy violence on a visceral level, practice religion, commit suicide, and get sex changes, among others. So now, being in romantic relationships is somehow a step too far? How does that go over the line, but none of the other anthropomorphization/personification didn’t? Furthermore, the romantic relationship was actually used (and used well, even I’ll admit) as a key point of the story and for development of several characters, plot threads, and background concepts.

Alan Scott and his boyfriend are not gay space robots.

Right, they’re gay parallel-universe alternate-history superheroes. I fail to see how one is more ridiculous than the other.

Again, we all understand what fanfic is. And, I hope that we, both as a forum and a fandom, see the problem with fanfic.

This book has shipping. It has "TFs are just like people, complete with having movie night". It has memes, such as "nightmare fuel". It is loaded with those great "clever" fan/character moments.

Again, this is not shipping. You clearly do not understand what shipping actually is. Transformers have *always* been portrayed as just like people (the G1 cartoon had TFs going to psychologists and watching intergalactic sporting events on TV! Beast Wars and Animated had them playing video games! How is a Movie Night any worst than those?). Transformers has been making references to other things since the dawn of time (every chapter of Costa’s run was named after this one writer’s line of political thriller novels. Was that ‘oh-so-clever’? Is Costa’s run automatically complete crap now?). I have no idea what you mean by ‘clever fan-character moments’, but I don’t expect you to explain since apparently we should all just ‘know’, right?

This gets in to the question of immersion, similar to what Gomess brought up months ago in the video game thread. I forget the exact question being argued. But, the defense was "in-story reason for this stupid thing". Gomess' response, (which I actually agreed with), was basically "the whole story is written by somebody in the real world and they make the stupid thing happen". Gomess went on to say that at some point, one had to step out of/back from the game and recognize that.

In this case, Rewind and Chromedome are described as being "significant others". We all *know* what that term means. Why would Saint James be using it unless he was implying that the "special bond" between Chromedome and Rewind was more than friendship? What does that mean and why did Saint James Roberts put it in?

But think about it this way, from your own point of view of story usefulness: Roberts wanted to write a story about characters with a close, yes, romantic relationship and how that affected their reactions to a crisis and the seeming impending demise of one of that pair, followed up by Chromedome’s reaction to turning out to be unable to help Rewind. Chromedome and Rewind were perfectly suited to this story, since they’d already been established as a pair, their co-dependence had been mentioned and consistent since the first issue, and there were multiple built-in backstory reasons for them to be together, with this particular story using that as a chance to expand on that backstory even more. Roberts used the characters most appropriate to tell the story with the concept he wanted to (and again again again, IDW TF’s are pointedly 99.9999999% male, so any ‘romantic’ relationship established for the purposes of such a story would HAVE to be a male/male pair).

There is nothing wrong with gay fictional characters, (nor is there anything wrong with gay real people). But, gay robots are fucking stupid to the point of sounding like a parody of the kind of things that people would say is wrong with a comic about space robots. (And, yes, they are "gay" in this case. TFs are typically written as male. This gets in to that immersion thing mentioned above.) In this case, it is one more thing that reads like part of a stereotypical fanfic in a book that is saturated with those sorts of plot points.

Okay, big question time: If it weren’t Rewind that Chromedome was paired up with, but Rosanna, would the relationship as depicted in the book be ‘okay’ in your opinion?

Dom
-seriously, Minibot movie night?

YOUR FAVORITE G1 CHARACTER LOVES ROCKING OUT TO SWEET TUNES!!

[Dominic]

This is the only frame of reference I have for ‘reads like fanfic’.

You have been a fan for ~10 years now, and do not know the stereotypes about fanfic?

Transformers, despite technically being alien space robots, have generally always been portrayed as giant metal people. The closest we’ve ever gotten to an ‘alien’ portrayal of them was in the live-action movies, and arguably Costa’s ongoing.

It goes back to old G1 comics, UK and US actually.

Right, they’re gay parallel-universe alternate-history superheroes. I fail to see how one is more ridiculous than the other.

You are deliberately clouding the issue. "Earth 2" can be read on its own, just as a capes and tights book.

I have no idea what you mean by ‘clever fan-character moments’, but I don’t expect you to explain since apparently we should all just ‘know’, right?

"Wow, the characters are talking and doing stuff! Ohmygod this is so awesome!"

Okay, big question time: If it weren’t Rewind that Chromedome was paired up with, but Rosanna, would the relationship as depicted in the book be ‘okay’ in your opinion?

This gets in to that "step out of/away from" question above. Saint James is putting a romantic relationship in because "TFs are just like people" and thus he has to. And, yeah, gay shipping is considered more edgy or something.

Putting aside the obvious "Kiss Play" jokes that Rosanna invites, it would annoy me, especially in a book as fannish as "More than Meets the Eye" is playing out to be. The Chromedome/Rewind thing is just one more thing I am adding to an every growing list. "More than Meets the Eye" is written by a fan and for the fans in all of the worst ways.

Big question: Is anybody in this thread implying that I am homophobic?

YOUR FAVORITE G1 CHARACTER LOVES ROCKING OUT TO SWEET TUNES!!

Jazz was one of the guys who went native....because he liked new/different things. He was the guy who liked the "alien" music. But, other things about the Autobots, even how the interacted with the world, played them up as aliens.

[BWprowl]

You have been a fan for ~10 years now, and do not know the stereotypes about fanfic?

No, I don’t, because I hardly read any fanfic. So enlighten me.

You are deliberately clouding the issue. "Earth 2" can be read on its own, just as a capes and tights book.

Right, and MTMTE can be read on its own, what’s the issue here? How are ‘gay robots’ any worse than ‘gay superheroes’? If anything, I would say that ‘gay superheroes’ is worse in terms of playing down to unfortunate stereotypes (remember ‘Seduction of the Innocent’? Of course you do).

"Wow, the characters are talking and doing stuff! Ohmygod this is so awesome!"

Don’t…characters talk and do stuff in almost every story ever? I admit (and complain about) this comic gets excessively chatty at times, but I critique that as an issue that affects the story pacing and saturates it with unnecessary details, whereas you issue with it just seems to be that some hypothetical people you’re not fond of enjoy it.

This gets in to that "step out of/away from" question above. Saint James is putting a romantic relationship in because "TFs are just like people" and thus he has to. And, yeah, gay shipping is considered more edgy or something.

Dude, I just outlined for you the story concepts Roberts was exploring with the relationship and how it actually fit into the narrative, not to mention how it was pretty much unavoidable that such a relationship would involve two ‘male’ characters! Did you not read any of that?

Putting aside the obvious "Kiss Play" jokes that Rosanna invites, it would annoy me, especially in a book as fannish as "More than Meets the Eye" is playing out to be. The Chromedome/Rewind thing is just one more thing I am adding to an every growing list. "More than Meets the Eye" is written by a fan and for the fans in all of the worst ways.

Still not seeing how…

Big question: Is anybody in this thread implying that I am homophobic?

I’m implying that you have some weird double standard where gay superheroes are okay, but gay established-personified robots are somehow icky, and you’re exacerbating it into a reason for you to dislike the book under guise of it counting as ‘shipping’ because you have a hate-on for Roberts because some other people like him.

Jazz was one of the guys who went native....because he liked new/different things. He was the guy who liked the "alien" music. But, other things about the Autobots, even how the interacted with the world, played them up as aliens.

You conveniently ignored all the other instances I cited of TFs practicing human-esque culture. Over in RID we have TFs opening up bars, reciting poetry on stage, mentioning hunting for sport, and practicing political discourse, complete with elections, and you love that book! How is a single panel of a few robots killing time watching movies more offensive than any of that?

Beast Wars had TFs going to amusement parks and strip clubs, and Beast Machines and Cybertron had references to TFs downloading porn! You can’t pretend that Movie Night is some new level of culture-personification that’s somehow horrible.

[Shockwave]

The name "Saint James" was born of my annoyance with the fandom giving him passes on things they would normally complain about.

This is all in your head. I have seen nothing anywhere else that indicates the fandom is giving Roberts a pass on anything "just because he's Roberts". Or for any other reason for that matter. He really doesn't have that kind of pull. That is really just in your head. And really, I agree with Prowl, that's a horrible reason to hate a book. In hindsight I have to wonder if part of why you liked AHM so much is because so much of the fandom hated it. It almost seems like you go out of your way to feel the opposite of whatever you think the fandom is going to feel about TF fiction. Which really is a horrible way to live your life. Fuck 'em. They're nobody of any importance to you so quit letting this imaginary "fandom" dictate how you feel about the fiction you read.

Also, Roberts isn't writing "for the fans". He's just showing them doing normal things. Yes, some of the dialogue is pointless but guess what? That shit happens in real life too! Not every conversation I have has a point to it nor does it always "further my storyline" as it were. And really after years upon years of "alien war, alien war, alien war" it's nice to Transformers doing normal shit for once.

[Shockwave]

You are deliberately clouding the issue. "Earth 2" can be read on its own, just as a capes and tights book.

Right, and MTMTE can be read on its own, what’s the issue here? How are ‘gay robots’ any worse than ‘gay superheroes’? If anything, I would say that ‘gay superheroes’ is worse in terms of playing down to unfortunate stereotypes (remember ‘Seduction of the Innocent’? Of course you do).

This gets in to that "step out of/away from" question above. Saint James is putting a romantic relationship in because "TFs are just like people" and thus he has to. And, yeah, gay shipping is considered more edgy or something.

Dude, I just outlined for you the story concepts Roberts was exploring with the relationship and how it actually fit into the narrative, not to mention how it was pretty much unavoidable that such a relationship would involve two ‘male’ characters! Did you not read any of that?

Putting aside the obvious "Kiss Play" jokes that Rosanna invites, it would annoy me, especially in a book as fannish as "More than Meets the Eye" is playing out to be. The Chromedome/Rewind thing is just one more thing I am adding to an every growing list. "More than Meets the Eye" is written by a fan and for the fans in all of the worst ways.

Still not seeing how…

Big question: Is anybody in this thread implying that I am homophobic?

I’m implying that you have some weird double standard where gay superheroes are okay, but gay established-personified robots are somehow icky, and you’re exacerbating it into a reason for you to dislike the book under guise of it counting as ‘shipping’ because you have a hate-on for Roberts because some other people like him.

I have not read much fanfic either and as such am largely unfamiliar with the associated stereotypes as well.

Dom, nobody is suggesting anything. Prowl is legitimately calling you out for seeming to have a double standard.