Comics are Awesome II

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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Sparky Prime »

andersonh1 wrote:No, they threw out 90% of their continuity. Have you really sat down and taken a look at how many stories have changed or gone by the wayside, and thought about how different that makes all the characters? Have you thought about how many characters are entirely gone from the scene?
Really, 90%? I seriously doubt that since we really haven't seen a detailed timeline of events here. All we know is that some things have changed and some things have remained the same from details we've seen in the comics so far. There is no true indication how how much they threw out here though. And you keep ignoring this fact while pushing forward this baseless notion they've changed practically everything here.
You cannot change, delete and otherwise jettison story after story and character-forming event after character-forming event and claim with a straight face that the continuity is the same.
It's a comic book. They do stuff like that all the time... Retconing events while still somehow getting it all to work, even if it sometimes really doesn't make sense.
I'll say it again: DC didn't throw all of that out for no reason. They wanted to start over. They wanted to go forward without having to be consistent with what came before, which is all that continuity really is.
And DC didn't keep other parts of the continuity for no reason either. They didn't want to start all over. They wanted to go forward while refreshing some of their characters at the same time. Again, this isn't all or nothing, it's a mix of both.
No, they haven't. They've majorly overhauled just about every character. And they threw out most of their history to do it, leaving us with the nebulous and undefined "five years" in which things that we're just not privy to happened.
It's by far not just about every character. And if we're not privy to most of what happened during those 5 years as you admit to, then how can you claim they've thrown out that much continuity. You don't know that.
How many zero issues have you had a chance to read? Compare the modern origins in the issues from this past month with the originals. In no way, shape or form can the New 52 be said to be following in continuity with the pre-Flashpoint DC universe. Far, far too much has been changed.
How many Zero issues have you read? With the bias you've had against DC ever since the relaunch, I don't get the impression you read many of them yourself. Not all of the zero issues even talked about the characters origins. And you keep ignoring the events we have seen to have stayed the same.
An analogy: DC has done essentially what the last Star Trek movie did.
Not exactly... Not all of the characters in DC were changed.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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GI Joe v/s Cobra #5:
The Joe Con theme this year was "Iron Grenadiers v/s Oktober Guard". Lee and Lane take a page from the BotCon 2009 comic and use a framing sequence to set up the main story as a flashback,. I am unsure what the official stance on continuity at Fun Publications is. But, the Guard resembles their depictions in the old Marvel run of "GI Joe" rather than the Sun Bow cartoon. The main story is set in 1989, presumably before the Berlin Wall fell. In context, it could easily be fit in to Hama's run. And, its tone and quality is not to far off from Hama's average. As tempting as it is to make snide remarks about Fun Publications setting a "GI Joe" comic 20+ years ago, this is actually not a bad comic. It is nothing great, but it is readable. And, compared to most other things that Fun Publications has released, it is excellent.
Grade: C

Legends of the Dark Knight #1:
If this issue is indicative of how the series will play out, then I am in. Rather than being a single-issue story, this book has 3 stories in a single issue. The first two play on the theme of Batman's strengths and weaknesses. The first is a street-level story, the other starts with Batman on the JLA satellite. The 3rd story feels like an after-thought, and is the weakest of the 3,with Batman and Robin preventing a crime by talking to a prospective criminal. I am likely adding this to my pull-list.
Grade: B


Earth 2 #5:
Yeah, I said I was taking a break from the new 52. But, I am not reading "Earth 2" as part of the new 52 so much as I am reading it as a good comic. While the (not yet a) team fights Grundy in DC, the normal human leaders discuss options. Robinson does a good job of showing the political changes to the world after the emergence of super-humans while providing an in-story reason for why the changes were less severe in the main DC books. (The gods of the world in "Earth 2" are mostly dead, while they largely survived in the main books.) Grade: A


Avengers v/s X-Men #12:
There are some suprises, but nothing significant. "No more mutants" is replaced with "more mutants". Cyclops is incarcerated, and rightly so. This book squarely addresses problematic elements in the Avengers, (specifically the team neglecting mutants in need despite standing for all people). I more or less predicted Wanda Maximoff's redemption. The X-Men are subsumed by the Avengers. (This is likely due to the popularity of the "Avengers" movie. But, I never thought that I would see this happen.) In contrast to "Earth 2", but wholly consistent with the genre as a whole, global devastation is hand-waved at the end.
Grade? C/D

DC's "overall comic-book figures are noticeably up over the last three years". Sure some of the titles have dipped back down in sales, but I think everyone pretty much expected that to happen once the initial fascination of the New 52 wore off. It's not realistic to believe all of them would stay so high in sales.
The general trend is "sales are up". Exactly. The guy at my local shop said that people are settling in to books that they like, which is only natural.

Marvel isn't rebooting their universe. They're making some changes, restarting the books with #1s and shuffling creative teams, but they're going forward in their current continuity. I'll be curious to see how that plays out in terms of sales.
There is nothing unusual or revolutionary about what Marvel is doing. (In contrast, DC is doing new and revolutionary things.) Marvel is putting A-List talent on their "new" books. I imagine that sales will be healthy.

Once again, DC also continued forward with their continuity in the New 52 relaunch, but the difference is that they majorly overhauled several of their characters at the same time. I don't know why you keep ignoring this point that they've done both here. Marvel likely will not be changing any of their characters so dramatically as DC did, but you can bet they will probably make some tweaks to their continuity given this opportunity.
Both companies are moving forward, Marvel more than I expected truth be told.

I'll say it again: DC didn't throw all of that out for no reason. They wanted to start over. They wanted to go forward without having to be consistent with what came before, which is all that continuity really is.
Okay, time for a nuanced answer.

I am not going to play the percentage game. The real point is that DC changed more than they kept the same. And, much of what they did keep is still going to be changed by virtue of what they threw out.

But, that does not mean that DC's books are not moving forward. DC is moving forward from the end of "Flashpoint". There is nothing wrong with that. The old comics are gone and are no longer moving forward. However, the new comics *are* advancing.



Dom
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andersonh1
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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How many Zero issues have you read? With the bias you've had against DC ever since the relaunch, I don't get the impression you read many of them yourself. Not all of the zero issues even talked about the characters origins. And you keep ignoring the events we have seen to have stayed the same.
I wasn't biased from the start. I bought 14 different titles, and was even enthusiastic about some of them at first (Aquaman, Action, Supergirl, Batman). Some of those reviews are back in this very thread. I turned against the New 52 through reading it, and observing the many changes I disliked, and through finding the new lacking compared with the old universe. In some cases I turned against a book faster than others (Earth-2, Green Lantern to some extent, Superman), but it all happened after reading and evaluating the books. It wasn't a knee-jerk "Change is bad!" reaction.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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andersonh1 wrote:I wasn't biased from the start. I bought 14 different titles, and was even enthusiastic about some of them at first (Aquaman, Action, Supergirl, Batman). Some of those reviews are back in this very thread. I turned against the New 52 through reading it, and observing the many changes I disliked, and through finding the new lacking compared with the old universe. In some cases I turned against a book faster than others (Earth-2, Green Lantern to some extent, Superman), but it all happened after reading and evaluating the books. It wasn't a knee-jerk "Change is bad!" reaction.
Is that so? So what did you mean when you said in the previous comic book topic back on July 20, 2011...
andersonh1 wrote:Really, if DC editorial (or whoever mandated this train wreck) is embarassed about the standard comic convention of someone with super powers in brightly colored tights, they're in the wrong line of work.
...and...
I hope they sell, and indeed despite my general unhappiness with the majority of things happening in this reboot, I hope DC is successful. I just won't be along for the ride, since most of what they're doing is not an improvement on what came before.
...as just two examples? The first issue of Justice League, the first of the New 52 issues, wasn't released until the end of August 2011. So you say you turned against the New 52 through having actually read and evaluated the books huh? Hrm... that's interesting, since you clearly already had a negative opinion about the reboot long before any of those issues were released. So, can I borrow your time machine sometime?
Dominic wrote:I am not going to play the percentage game. The real point is that DC changed more than they kept the same. And, much of what they did keep is still going to be changed by virtue of what they threw out.
That's still an unsubstantiated claim since it's not entirely clear just how much has been changed and how much is the same.
The old comics are gone and are no longer moving forward. However, the new comics *are* advancing.
Yet at least some of the storylines pre-Flashpoint are still present and are moving forward as well...
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Sparky Prime wrote:Is that so? So what did you mean when you said in the previous comic book topic back on July 20, 2011...
andersonh1 wrote:Really, if DC editorial (or whoever mandated this train wreck) is embarassed about the standard comic convention of someone with super powers in brightly colored tights, they're in the wrong line of work.
So you say you turned against the New 52 through having actually read and evaluated the books huh?
I need to point out that what I was commenting on there and in the rest of the post was the New 52 preview comic, which contained a few pages from Justice League, as well as art and concept for a lot of the characters. So I was commenting on what I had read at that point in time, not just blindly lashing out at DC. I had something to go on.

Let me pick a few other quotes from after the reboot started and I actually began reading the books. These are evaluations based on the books themselves, not advance art and information.

Faint praise for Action Comics #1:
I like Superman as a character, but I’m fairly attached to the version I’ve read for the last 20 years. I’m not too happy about the reboot, but DC apparently felt it was necessary to revitalize the character. If it does that, then that’s fine. The character is still recognizable, even with the changes. Superman is still Superman. He hasn’t become a dark, angsty character, and that’s good. I almost feel like I’m reading a comic set in the Marvel Universe where the authorities and public aren’t all that happy with the costumed superheroes in their midst. I may or may not keep buying Action Comics, but this isn’t a bad issue, if filled with straw villains.
JLI #1
Could be good, given time. As I said, not a bad book, but nothing all that exciting or gripping. Nice to see a version of the old JLI league again though. I still need to read Generation Lost. I did enjoy this issue, but whether or not I want to collect it going forward remains to be seen. If I had plenty of hobby money, sure, but with limited funds I have to prioritize.
I liked Batgirl, Batman and Robin and Green Lantern too.
Got three comics today: Batgirl #1, Green Lantern #1 and Daredevil #3. Reviews to follow shortly. All three are pretty good. Both GL and Batgirl feel like they carry on directly from the pre-relaunch DC, and as someone who's not happy with some aspects of the reboot, that's a big selling point. Of course I knew beforehand that of all DC's titles that Batman and GL would change the least since they were selling the best, so I'm not surprised, just glad to see it. Also flipped through Batman and Robin #1 today, and it's not bad. I may or may not buy it next week.
I liked Green Lantern at first. Funny how things change over time. Though considering it's the only DC book I'm still buying month to month, something must be going right.
Green Lantern #1
THIS is a darn good issue, which feels as though the DC universe never had a reboot
Batman #1
This is a well-written introductory issue. Like so many of these #1s that I’m trying out, I’m not sure if I’ll be back for the second issue or not, purely for financial reasons. But if you’re a fan of Batman, I think this book is well worth picking up. It certainly blows Detective Comics out of the water, though that wouldn’t be difficult.
Nightwing #1
The art's really good, and the story is a first chapter, which is about all there is to say about it. It shows us who Dick Grayson is, where he came from, and what he's up to now, assuming he lives through the cliffhanger. I can't quite decide if this is better than the last Nightwing #1 (which I also bought back in the day) or not. But it's a decent book.
Aquaman #1
This is a fun book as one misconception about Aquaman after another is disabused. It's almost meta in the way it treats the subject. And as much as I liked Peter David's Aquaman, thank goodness the harpoon hand is gone and Arthur's back to his classic look, as he was in "Brightest Day". My favorite of the week.
And my summary post, which I won't repost here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=908&start=190

So just from these particular quotes, all on pages 1-20 of this very thread, you get following assessments of various first issues:
this isn’t a bad issue, Could be good, given time. As I said, not a bad book, but nothing all that exciting or gripping, THIS is a darn good issue, This is a well-written introductory issue, it's a decent book, this is a fun book.
There are a lot of positive statements there for someone who supposedly hated the reboot from the beginning. Yes, I didn't like the way they did it or the costume and character changes, and I made that very plain as your post demonstrates. BUT I tried a number of books and found plenty to enjoy... at first. As time has gone on, that enthusiasm has obviously waned. But I gave DC a chance, put some money down and bought some of their new product, and most certainly did not dismiss the entire thing out of hand. I responded to the information as it was released, and then to the product itself as it was released. It was a fair evaluation as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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andersonh1 wrote:I need to point out that what I was commenting on there and in the rest of the post was the New 52 preview comic, which contained a few pages from Justice League, as well as art and concept for a lot of the characters. So I was commenting on what I had read at that point in time, not just blindly lashing out at DC. I had something to go on.
Right, give me a break. You had just claimed that you had waited to read the books themselves to evaluate and pass judgement on them. Not a preview book and art months beforehand. You had nothing but harsh criticisms leading up to the relaunch as I recall, and from what I see in reviewing those posts from last year.
There are a lot of positive statements there for someone who supposedly hated the reboot from the beginning. Yes, I didn't like the way they did it or the costume and character changes, and I made that very plain as your post demonstrates. BUT I tried a number of books and found plenty to enjoy... at first. As time has gone on, that enthusiasm has obviously waned. But I gave DC a chance, put some money down and bought some of their new product, and most certainly did not dismiss the entire thing out of hand. I responded to the information as it was released, and then to the product itself as it was released. It was a fair evaluation as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe you're right. Maybe you had no bias to your opinion from the start. But I'm curious now, what was your initial reaction to DC announcing the relaunch again?
andersonh1 wrote:In other words, "It wasn't broke, but we're going to fix it anyway". Ugh. Yeah, I'm pre-judging, but this doesn't sound promising at all.
Hrm. So you had some positive comments about some of the early issues of the New 52, but that doesn't negate your clear opinion you had already formed about the New 52 long before reading a single one of those issues. As such, I'm not seeing this supposedly fair, non-biased, evaluation you claim to have had at the start of it all. You even admitted to pre-judging it when they first announced it and we knew nothing about it yet. And you claim you didn't blindly lash out at DC? Looks to me like it went in expecting to hate it, if not already there.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Sparky Prime wrote:Right, give me a break. You had just claimed that you had waited to read the books themselves to evaluate and pass judgement on them. Not a preview book and art months beforehand. You had nothing but harsh criticisms leading up to the relaunch as I recall, and from what I see in reviewing those posts from last year.
Maybe you're right. Maybe you had no bias to your opinion from the start. But I'm curious now, what was your initial reaction to DC announcing the relaunch again?
andersonh1 wrote:In other words, "It wasn't broke, but we're going to fix it anyway". Ugh. Yeah, I'm pre-judging, but this doesn't sound promising at all.
Hrm. So you had some positive comments about some of the early issues of the New 52, but that doesn't negate your clear opinion you had already formed about the New 52 long before reading a single one of those issues. As such, I'm not seeing this supposedly fair, non-biased, evaluation you claim to have had at the start of it all. You even admitted to pre-judging it when they first announced it and we knew nothing about it yet. And you claim you didn't blindly lash out at DC? Looks to me like it went in expecting to hate it, if not already there.
That being the case, why exactly did I buy those early books? If I was so biased against the relaunch from day one, why would I bother?

I'm not sure I see the contradiction here. I can read the information about new origins, new ages and new costumes and really dislike the idea (and say so, which I obviously did), and yet still be fair enough to buy the comics and give them a try, which is also what I did. It seems to me that if I were taking the approach you're describing that I would have never bought a single book, would have washed my hands of DC entirely and that would have been it.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Really, 90%? I seriously doubt that since we really haven't seen a detailed timeline of events here.
Why the fuck this hasn't happened yet is beyond me.

Oh, right, because comic book writers and editors are shitting retarded and can't even figure out what shit from RIGHT NOW they want to keep; let alone continuity from years ago.

And it wouldn't matter anyway because some dickhole writer would just come back after the current one leaves and decide half that stuff isn't canon now and the stuff from before that is.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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andersonh1 wrote:That being the case, why exactly did I buy those early books? If I was so biased against the relaunch from day one, why would I bother?

I'm not sure I see the contradiction here. I can read the information about new origins, new ages and new costumes and really dislike the idea (and say so, which I obviously did), and yet still be fair enough to buy the comics and give them a try, which is also what I did. It seems to me that if I were taking the approach you're describing that I would have never bought a single book, would have washed my hands of DC entirely and that would have been it.
Giving it a try is one thing, but going into it expecting to hate it, as you obviously did from the start, that's not keeping an open mind to give it a fair try at all. Most of your criticisms about the New 52 remains simply 'it's not the same as it used to be'. Hell, you said you wouldn't even read Earth 2 to try it after they revealed Alan Scott is gay. Never mind that it's actually a good story and a totally new Earth 2 universe in context explaining the radical changes to those characters, which you might have seen if you had actually given that book a fair try. Instead you dismissed it out of hand, hating that they weren't exactly the same as the old versions of the characters before giving the new versions the benefit of the doubt. Of course if you go in expecting to hate something, you'll more than likely end up hating it in the end and certainly don't have the mind set to give it a fair evaluation.
Onslaugh Six wrote:Why the fuck this hasn't happened yet is beyond me.
So I guess focusing on developing the new status quo and moving the stories forward rather than looking back is totally out of the question? It's only been a year and they have been revealing bits and pieces here and there about the history as the stories are progressing.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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So I guess focusing on developing the new status quo and moving the stories forward rather than looking back is totally out of the question? It's only been a year and they have been revealing bits and pieces here and there about the history as the stories are progressing.
They should have "developed" this before they published it. The impression that most people have is that DC put zero planning in to this. Both the Batman and Superman books have seen some retcons *after* being published. The only reason for that sort of thing is a lack of planning.

Why the fuck this hasn't happened yet is beyond me.

Oh, right, because comic book writers and editors are shitting retarded and can't even figure out what shit from RIGHT NOW they want to keep; let alone continuity from years ago.
This is the single biggest problem with the new 52.

DC does not have to publish a timeline for the readers. But, they should have had one editorially.

"Flashpoint" feels impulsive. More than a few people around the 'net and the comic shops have said that "Flashpoint" felt like a "Flash" arc that somehow turned in to a "Crisis" event at the last minute.

I wonder if maybe DC went this route with no planning out of frustration. During the "Crisis Trilogy", DC's tagline was something like "you will not believe what happens next". At the time, my reaction to that was actually "yeah sure, bringing back Hal and making this like they were 20+ years ago". But, it seems like DC's goal was to recapture the sense of anything being possible that existed for a bit less than 10 years after the original "Crisis".

I missed "Crisis on Infinite Earths". (I was 8 when it resolved, and was reading most "Transformers" and "GI Joe" in 1986. Comics had not yet supplanted TV as my primary entertainment.) But, I "discovered" DC in 1989, not long after Burton's "Batman". I remember there being a sense of "newness" to the comics. Some of it was the fact that I had little familiarity with DC. But, there was also a sense that "things had changed" in the stories that I generally did not get from the Marvel books that I had started reading at the time.

In Marvel, I knew that things were stay more or less the same. The X-books and (to a much lesser extent) Avengers books were an exception this. But, for the most part, Marvel was "stable".

In DC....holy crap. Robin was dead? Later finding out that it was a different Robin only added to DC's cred in my eyes. (On the other hand, I knew that Bucky's death was a back-write the first time that I read about it.) Byrne's Superman? Oh my lord. And, apparently the Flash people had been reading about for years was dead.

I read "Armageddon: 2001" wondering what was going to happen. There were people speculating about who Monarch was. Would Marvel have thrown even a tertiary character like Hawk or Captain Atom in to the furnace? The answer, and I knew it even then, was "no". At most, we would get an alternate future version that we knew would never see in the main book. (I knew that Cable would never turn in to Ahab in the x-books.)

Then, in 1992, the guy at the local comic shop lent me his first run "Crisis on Infinite Earths". And, holy shit. He told me it was big. He told me that it changed everything. And, it did. When Superman died, there was a sense that maybe, just maybe, he would stay dead. If "Emerald Twilight" were a Marvel book, I would not have cared because I would have known that Hal was going to be okay. (Coast City would not have been wiped out to begin with.) When DC promised big and crazy changes, they usually delivered....for a time.

Then, in the late 90s, that eroded. Mark Waid lost his spine...and just brought back the Flash's Rogues Gallery. Why? Just...because. Kevin Smith was a fucking diva and had to bring back Oliver Queen. Why? Just because.

By 2005 or so, I had no confidence in anything DC published having any sticking power. But, their marketing seemed like they were trying to capture the "anything can happen" feeling of the late 80s and early 90s.

"Infinite Crisis" was too stable, and it was ultimately a return to how things were.

But, with "Flash Point", we are in truly uncharted territory. The problem is that DC does not seem to have appreciably more of an idea of where things are going than we the readers do.

And, some more comics. (I did not pick up the "Ultimates" comics this weekend. Maybe next week.)

Hawkman #0:
There are a few sentences that Liefeld could have gone over once or twice. But, to be fair. Liefeld writing a comic kind of obligates people to look for problems that they would normally let slide. The description of the Czarnians is a change from the Giffen/Bisley take on the species. Hawkman's memories are spotty. But, there is no sign of him being some kind of universal constant. Liefeld borrows elements of "Hawkworld", the alien policeman and Egyption royalty by making Katar somebody who married in to alien royalty in a statified empire. My only real complaint about new 52 Hawkman is that it is drawing on my least favourite character model. (I would have preferred the full uniform of "Hawkworld" or the post "Zero Hour" model.)
Grade: C

Justice League Dark #0:
This is mostly "the secret origin of new 52 Constantine". There are a few things that I recognized as Easter Eggs, likely from Vertigo, even if I did not recognize their exact source. The main thing to take away from this is "a good chunk of Vertigo stuff happened in the new 52".
Grade: C

AvX #6:
I flipped through the previous five issues of this book. It did not add anything to the main AvX book or their cross-overs. But, it delivered on what it promised. It billed itself as a big stupid fight book that did not require the readers to know or think about anything other than the fights. And, it delivered. This issue is played mostly for laughs, consisting of short-subject fights that read like a "Mad Magazine" parody of AvX. Bendis gives us a page of Cyclops and Captain America hitting each other *really* low. Loeb offers a one page "bad girl fights" dream sequence. At least the guy admits he is a hack. This series was not great. But, it never set out to be.
Grade: B/C

Age of Apocalypse #8:
It is fast becoming apparent that I like this book more in concept than execution. Stuff happens. And, because it is an alternate universe, stuff sticks. But, aside form that, I am not really in to this comic. Unless it wows me in the next few months, I will probably drop this book.
Grade: C



Dom
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