Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

Post by Sparky Prime »

Onslaught Six wrote:The first two characters who meet each other are Primal and Rattrap on the train. To begin with, Primal doesn't say anything to the Vehicon drones--he doesn't try to talk to them. He doesn't try to tell them to stop. He doesn't do anything, he just runs away. For all we know he doesn't remember he's a Transformer.
You haven't seen the first episode in a while have you? Primal gets cornered by the Tank drones within the first minute of the show at which point he turns to them and says "I don't know who you are, but if it's a fight you're looking for... Optimus, Maximize!"
The way Rattrap says "Optimus?" it sounds like he literally just remembered who the hell he was.
They had just lost their Transmetal forms, it's just as easily explained as taking them a second to recognize each other back in their original beast forms.
None of them seem to even acknowledge that they lost their Transmetal forms.
When Rattrap accesses Tankorr's memories in "Revelations Part II: Descent" and sees that they 'devolved' when exposed to the virus he says "So that's what happened to our Transmetal bodies". Blackarachnia also saw their Transmetal forms when she accessed the computer on the shuttle and didn't question why they looked so different.
Amnesia's screwy like that. Blackarachnia doesn't remember Silverbolt either. It's questionable how much the Maximals remember about the Beast Wars 'throughout the series.'
The writers are pretty specific about setting it up so the only thing they don't remember is the only thing we as the viewers haven't seen yet (being the trip home and crash on Cybertron). And then they're like "oh yeah, and they don't remember Rhinox and Silverbolt as well". Yet Blackarachnia instantly recognizes Waspinator when she finds out he's Thrust? No, amnesia isn't screwy like that.
I have seriously never even thought of this "planet shut down for half a day" thing before because it doesn't seem like it's a big point.
That's kinda the whole point of the episode with Megatron needing Rattrap to protect him until then.
Also, I showed Beast Machines to my girlfriend, who has never seen Beast Wars (and possibly never will)
"You didn't think it would be 'out of character' for Rattrap to go to Megatron, the bad guy, for weapons?"
So in other words, she doesn't know Rattrap's background to know he's acting out of character since she's never seen Beast Wars. That invalidates that argument.
Also! Something very few people bring up. Rattrap was CONSTANTLY talking about how he couldn't wait to get back to Cybertron in BW. He might be the most homesick of all the Maximals in the show. (I actually typed Autobots at first. Wow.) Sure, he deals with it like everybody else, but he's ALWAYS talking about Cybertron, and how great it was, and how he can't wait to get back there and look at strippers. And then he gets there, and the whole place has been shut down and taken over by Megatron, and everyone he ever knew is probably dead. Oh, and now he has to deal with Primal being a mystic for some reason and he can't just transform with a voice command like he used to, and he's a paraplegic, and everyone is giving him shit for it. That'll break anybody. (Or should I take over Earth and kill everyone you've ever known, Sparky? Would that help you sympathize with him?)
Cheetor seemed to be just as homesick for Cybertron.

Rattrap tries to blackmail Megatron into giving him weapons. Even when that fails to work, they negotiate a deal that benefits them both. Rattrap then threatens to use those weapons against Megatron until Megs points out Optimus wouldn't fire on a defenseless opponent (although I'd argue Beast Wars Rattrap would shoot him anyway). When his friends show up Rattrap tries to tell them they're ruining his plan. He didn't expect they'd actually show up and then he could have kept the weapons and returned to them with out anyone getting hurt, because despite everyone giving him shit for his shortcomings, he's trying to look out for them and make himself stronger to do so. Does any of this sound like someone who has actually had their will broken to you? This is Rattrap trying to make himself stronger albeit out of character, not giving into his problems.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

Post by Onslaught Six »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Onslaught Six wrote:The first two characters who meet each other are Primal and Rattrap on the train. To begin with, Primal doesn't say anything to the Vehicon drones--he doesn't try to talk to them. He doesn't try to tell them to stop. He doesn't do anything, he just runs away. For all we know he doesn't remember he's a Transformer.
You haven't seen the first episode in a while have you? Primal gets cornered by the Tank drones within the first minute of the show at which point he turns to them and says "I don't know who you are, but if it's a fight you're looking for... Optimus, Maximize!"
Point conceded.
The way Rattrap says "Optimus?" it sounds like he literally just remembered who the hell he was.
They had just lost their Transmetal forms, it's just as easily explained as taking them a second to recognize each other back in their original beast forms.
None of them seem to even acknowledge that they lost their Transmetal forms.
When Rattrap accesses Tankorr's memories in "Revelations Part II: Descent" and sees that they 'devolved' when exposed to the virus he says "So that's what happened to our Transmetal bodies". Blackarachnia also saw their Transmetal forms when she accessed the computer on the shuttle and didn't question why they looked so different.
Amnesia's screwy like that. Blackarachnia doesn't remember Silverbolt either. It's questionable how much the Maximals remember about the Beast Wars 'throughout the series.'
The writers are pretty specific about setting it up so the only thing they don't remember is the only thing we as the viewers haven't seen yet (being the trip home and crash on Cybertron). And then they're like "oh yeah, and they don't remember Rhinox and Silverbolt as well". Yet Blackarachnia instantly recognizes Waspinator when she finds out he's Thrust? No, amnesia isn't screwy like that.
I dunno. I'm not the Maximals so I don't know what they remember. It's possible Blackarachnia has stronger memories of Waspinator than any of the Maximals since she was actually a Predacon.
So in other words, she doesn't know Rattrap's background to know he's acting out of character since she's never seen Beast Wars. That invalidates that argument.
But she thought he was acting entirely in character with how he'd been portrayed up to that point in Beast Machines.

Beast Machines has to be taken as its own thing. It cannot be held responsible for being a sequel to a show that it shared almost nothing, besides the characters, in common with. New setting, new writers, new animation style, new 'everything' except it carried over some characters. It doesn't even carry over 'plotlines' from BW because everything was resolved! With the exception of "Maximals fighting Megatron" the conflicts are entirely different--and even that core conflict has different reasons behind it!
Rattrap tries to blackmail Megatron into giving him weapons. Even when that fails to work, they negotiate a deal that benefits them both. Rattrap then threatens to use those weapons against Megatron until Megs points out Optimus wouldn't fire on a defenseless opponent (although I'd argue Beast Wars Rattrap would shoot him anyway). When his friends show up Rattrap tries to tell them they're ruining his plan. He didn't expect they'd actually show up and then he could have kept the weapons and returned to them with out anyone getting hurt, because despite everyone giving him shit for his shortcomings, he's trying to look out for them and make himself stronger to do so. Does any of this sound like someone who has actually had their will broken to you? This is Rattrap trying to make himself stronger, not giving in.
The point of the episode is that Rattrap is broken to the point that he needs to get Megs' weapons to feel stronger. He thinks the only way for him to not feel useless is to turn to the only other sentient--though evil--person on the planet and ask him to weapons. The point is that, by the end, he figured out that he didn't need Megatron's shit to feel self-worth. He had a crisis of self-esteem issues and in this episode, he got over them.

Because Rattrap honestly doesn't get much development in BW. He's just...that sarcastic asshole guy who doesn't like Dinobot. And he gets a little bit of growth in learning to trust Dinobot (sort of) throughout BW but aside from that he's still just the jerkoff Maximal. BM does what it can at the beginning to shake his confidence and in my opinion it succeeds at doing so.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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Onslaught Six wrote:Beast Machines has to be taken as its own thing. It cannot be held responsible for being a sequel to a show that it shared almost nothing, besides the characters, in common with. New setting, new writers, new animation style, new 'everything' except it carried over some characters. It doesn't even carry over 'plotlines' from BW because everything was resolved! With the exception of "Maximals fighting Megatron" the conflicts are entirely different--and even that core conflict has different reasons behind it!
This. Beast Machines is a new series with new writers using existing characters that, while they stick to some of the core elements that they posessed previously, are still being reinterpreted for use in this new story by these new guys. Complaining that Bob Skir's Rattrap doesn't act the same as Larry DiTillo's Rattrap is like complaining that Kevin Smith's Batman doesn't act the same as Frank Miller's Batman. Beast Machines is not 'Beast Wars - Season 4', it's 'Beast Machines', a new series, with a new direction, themes, ideas, concepts, and so forth. Some stuff is going to get rejiggered.
The point of the episode is that Rattrap is broken to the point that he needs to get Megs' weapons to feel stronger. He thinks the only way for him to not feel useless is to turn to the only other sentient--though evil--person on the planet and ask him to weapons. The point is that, by the end, he figured out that he didn't need Megatron's shit to feel self-worth. He had a crisis of self-esteem issues and in this episode, he got over them.
This too. Maybe a Rattrap who still had his confidence from Beast Wars would muster up the gumption to build his own weapons and prove how worthwhile he still feels, but this isn't that Rattrap. He doesn't have any guns, he doesn't even have *legs*; he has lost his confidence, his assuredness in himself, and if his so-called friends aren't going to support him in what is clearly a time of need, then the only other option he has for that is Megatron. I think *that's* why he ends up not backstabbing Megatron after he gets the weapons: because as much of a bastard as Megatron is, he still gave Rattrap a chance, which is more than the Maximals did.

Also, Sparky, have you had amnesia before? Because you seem to know a lot about how it works. Especially computer-virus-induced amnesia in alien robots.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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Onslaught Six wrote:I dunno. I'm not the Maximals so I don't know what they remember. It's possible Blackarachnia has stronger memories of Waspinator than any of the Maximals since she was actually a Predacon.
You think she has stronger memories of Waspinator than she does of Silverbolt? The Maximal who convinced her to join them in the first place that she loves?
But she thought he was acting entirely in character with how he'd been portrayed up to that point in Beast Machines.
Which doesn't matter. It's still not how he was originally established to be in Beast Wars.
Beast Machines has to be taken as its own thing. It cannot be held responsible for being a sequel to a show that it shared almost nothing, besides the characters, in common with.
It's not it's own thing at all. You can't just ignore that Beast Machines is a direct sequel to Beast Wars. One show literally leads right into the next. Some fans don't even differentiate that they are two separate shows because of that. There is a history behind it, not just with Beast Wars but G1 as well. It doesn't matter if it's a different setting, new writers and whatever. They're still supposed to be the same characters and they should be written as such.
The point of the episode is that Rattrap is broken to the point that he needs to get Megs' weapons to feel stronger.
No, the point is it's out of character for him to go to Megatron in the first place. As he's fond of saying, he's a rat and they're survivors. He knows how to scavenge and steal what he needs. There is no reason for him to believe he has to go to Megatron just to get weapons when there are plenty of other options available to him.
Because Rattrap honestly doesn't get much development in BW. He's just...that sarcastic asshole guy who doesn't like Dinobot. And he gets a little bit of growth in learning to trust Dinobot (sort of) throughout BW but aside from that he's still just the jerkoff Maximal. BM does what it can at the beginning to shake his confidence and in my opinion it succeeds at doing so.
You need to watch Beast Wars again if that's what you think. Rattrap gets plenty of development. He starts out being extremely insubordinate, not willing to risk his neck for anyone but slowly becomes more of a team player who will risk himself to save his team mates when they need him. He's got some ambitions towards leadership, but when he finds himself in the role he prefers Optimus keep the job. Still, he and Rhinox seem to act as co-second in commands of the Maximals through-out BW. He takes responsibility for his own mistakes, particularly as we see in "A Better Mousetrap". We see he is a veteran fighter who is able to improvise strategies for various situations. We see he's a capable scavenger when the Maximals need to find some energon. And so on...
BWprowl wrote:Complaining that Bob Skir's Rattrap doesn't act the same as Larry DiTillo's Rattrap is like complaining that Kevin Smith's Batman doesn't act the same as Frank Miller's Batman.
You know there were multiple writers beyond Skir and DiTillo on those shows right? And *gasp* those other writers kept the character consistent with the lead writers! However could they have managed that!?
Maybe a Rattrap who still had his confidence from Beast Wars would muster up the gumption to build his own weapons and prove how worthwhile he still feels, but this isn't that Rattrap.
So you're saying he couldn't muster the gumption to build his own gun but he could muster the gumption to try and blackmail Megatron? And you don't see anything wrong with that picture?
Also, Sparky, have you had amnesia before? Because you seem to know a lot about how it works. Especially computer-virus-induced amnesia in alien robots.
Look, it's obvious how the writers set it up. The Maximals memory gap of the trip home and crashing on Cybertron is understandable, but also conveniently totally forgetting Silverbolt and Rhinox who happens to be the only two missing from the team when the Maximals make it a point to say they remember being on the way home? That is oddly specific and clearly only meant for the purposes of the plot. It's bad writing.

And just as a point of fact, I have taken some courses in psychology which covered amnesia among other memory problems.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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Alright, I'll throw my hat in this ring: When I watch Beast Wars, I immediately follow up with Beast Machines because I basically regard it as "Beast Wars season 4". And Rattrap never bothered me in BM. Yeah, the "Weakest Link" or whatever that ep is called did seem a little out of character but not enough that I thought it wasn't plausible. Rattrap had a moment of weakness and got the hell over it. That's the story. As for the memory thing, well, I've taken plenty of trips where I didn't always remember who had travelled with me. And I supposedly don't have any "gaps" in my memory. Maybe they just forgot since those characters weren't RIGHT THERE with them and they had other far more pressing matters to pay attention to. Y'know, like, running from gunfire and not dying.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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Sparky Prime wrote:You know there were multiple writers beyond Skir and DiTillo on those shows right? And *gasp* those other writers kept the character consistent with the lead writers! However could they have managed that!?
I dunno, whoever wrote ‘The Weak Component’ seemed to keep things pretty consistent with BM’s lead writer… Maybe the BM guys simply weren't worrying about everything matching up with BW's writers, because they had their own story to tell?

It’s just, Sparky, did it occur to you that maybe the way they went about writing the episode wasn’t to go “Okay, and here Rattrap’s going to find out his robot mode is useless, and here’s how he’d *totally* react given his history which we’re devout experts on, and we’ll write an episode around that!”, but instead to go “Okay, we want to do an episode about someone’s confidence in this situation getting taken so far down that they strike up a deal with the bad guy just to feel useful again. Well, Rattrap’s life has been in the shitter for the last few episodes, he fits the bill!” They wrote the story around the *idea* they wanted to illustrate, rather than just having stuff happen to the characters and seeing them react to it within their parameters for half an hour. Yes, they certainly could have made the episode about Rattrap scavenging around and building weapons, but that’s not what they *wanted* to make the story about, so they didn’t.

That sort of idea-driven storytelling applies to pretty much everything about Beast Machines. It’s not a story about a bunch of characters in a relatively neutral setting playing off each other, it’s a story about people pushed to their breaking point, and the extreme and surprising ways in which they can change in such situations.

Optional homework: Seek out a wounded or disabled war veteran, preferably one from Vietnam (although Iraq might work too). Ask them about the experience of being told they were fighting as heroes in a conflict away from their home, only to be hurt, crippled, told they couldn’t fight anymore, then shipped back home to find a large portion of the public not only did not consider them heroes, but actively scorned them. Then ask them if they’re the same person they were back when they were fighting.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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Shockwave wrote:As for the memory thing, well, I've taken plenty of trips where I didn't always remember who had travelled with me. And I supposedly don't have any "gaps" in my memory. Maybe they just forgot since those characters weren't RIGHT THERE with them and they had other far more pressing matters to pay attention to. Y'know, like, running from gunfire and not dying.
I find it hard to believe Blackarachnia would totally forget Silverbolt just because he didn't happen to be right there at the moment. Especially with how obsessive she became to get him back while he happened to be one of the same guys who was shooting at her. And Optimus seemed to have a pretty close friendship with Rhinox. It's just bad writing and that's all there is to it.
BWprowl wrote:I dunno, whoever wrote ‘The Weak Component’ seemed to keep things pretty consistent with BM’s lead writer… Maybe the BM guys simply weren't worrying about everything matching up with BW's writers, because they had their own story to tell?
If telling their own story is so much more important, why even bother using the Beast Wars cast? It's because they aren't telling their own story, they're continuing a story. New location and themes, but a continuation never-the-less.
It’s just, Sparky, did it occur to you that maybe the way they went about writing the episode wasn’t to go “Okay, and here Rattrap’s going to find out his robot mode is useless, and here’s how he’d *totally* react given his history which we’re devout experts on, and we’ll write an episode around that!”, but instead to go “Okay, we want to do an episode about someone’s confidence in this situation getting taken so far down that they strike up a deal with the bad guy just to feel useful again. Well, Rattrap’s life has been in the shitter for the last few episodes, he fits the bill!” They wrote the story around the *idea* they wanted to illustrate, rather than just having stuff happen to the characters and seeing them react to it within their parameters for half an hour. Yes, they certainly could have made the episode about Rattrap scavenging around and building weapons, but that’s not what they *wanted* to make the story about, so they didn’t.
Did it ever occur to you, BWprowl, that maybe they could write a story around that idea and stay true to Rattrap's characterization? Seriously, all they'd need to do is actually explain why Rattrap has no where else to turn but Megatron. We already know time is of the essence before Megatron recovers so say like... maybe by the time Rattrap goes to see Megatron he says he'd already checked a weapons storage only to find it cleaned out (save for maybe the one bomb he throws at Tankorr a few episodes later), and the drones weapons are booby trapped so that no one could try and steal those. *gasp* Suddenly if Rattrap wants a weapon Megatron is the only guy he can turn to, solved in a matter of one or two lines and takes care of a little plot hole in another episode. But what do the writers do instead? Have Rattrap go to Megatron directly, going against who he is as a character.

And then there is still the matter of Megatron just letting them leave at the end of the episode...
That sort of idea-driven storytelling applies to pretty much everything about Beast Machines. It’s not a story about a bunch of characters in a relatively neutral setting playing off each other, it’s a story about people pushed to their breaking point, and the extreme and surprising ways in which they can change in such situations.
As I said before, it is possible to do compelling, idea-driven stories and stay true to the characters (and continuity). All it takes is a little bit of good writing.
Optional homework: Seek out a wounded or disabled war veteran, preferably one from Vietnam (although Iraq might work too). Ask them about the experience of being told they were fighting as heroes in a conflict away from their home, only to be hurt, crippled, told they couldn’t fight anymore, then shipped back home to find a large portion of the public not only did not consider them heroes, but actively scorned them. Then ask them if they’re the same person they were back when they were fighting.
I don't see that being the same type of situation Rattrap is in here at all. Rattrap having wheels instead of legs for his robot mode never really hindered him in the show so I wouldn't say he sees himself as disabled. He's apparently already a veteran from even before the Beast Wars, meaning conflict isn't anything new to him, so the problem for him isn't that war has changed him. The problem he is facing is that he doesn't have a weapon to fight with like he is accustomed to. The Oracle forgot to tell him it was making him the gadget inventing/R2D2 of the group and he feels useless not being a gun toting character that used to be one of his specialties. It'd be like if someone took away your talents you relied on with out telling you and expected you to figure out how to adapt with out it on your own.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky I've got to give you the Megatron thing. Every time I watch that episode, I keep waiting for the inevitable betrayal and... it never comes. And then I'm like "What the hell? Megatron is on the up and up? Seriously?"

So... any more reviews of more episodes? I'm waiting to see your thoughts on season 2.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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I had a whole post here but work's Internet cut out briefly and I lost the whole damn thing. So instead of reposting the whole thing I'm just going to say I don't think Sparky understands certain things about BM.

You have to leave BW's bullshit behind. I don't care how Rattrap acted there! He's on Cybertron now and it's been taken over and his robot mode sucks ass and everybody is calling him a useless prick. He's hurt and that's why he acts "out of character." Everyone has their breaking point. Clearly Rattrap's is when all his friends call him a piece of shit and also his entire home planet is fucked up. Maybe you think Rattrap has more resolve than that. I don't. I think Rattrap is actually always this insecure and he just puts up his snarky asshole attitude as a barrier so the other Maximals don't realize how scared he is. (For fuck's sake, his catchphrase in BW was "We're all gonna die.") So finally he gets back home and everything's fucked up and he's a useless piece of crap and everyone hates him for it. Then Megatron offers him a big boost of confidence and of course he's going to take it, because at that point Megatron is the only person who even claims to like Rattrap.

Rattrap has his feelings hurt and he makes a momentary lapse in judgement. But the other Maximals are like, "We're sorry bro, we didn't know we were hurting your feelings, you're so awesome Rattrap, come back home, fuck Megatron dude," and Rattrap goes "Yeah you know what YOU'RE RIGHT I'M RATTRAP I'M FUCKING AWESOME, PISS OFF MEGS!" and leaves.
If telling their own story is so much more important, why even bother using the Beast Wars cast?
"Hey Hasbro, we have this great idea for the next Transformers series! Cybertron is taken over and it's up to these guys to stop it and restore the balance!"
"Yeah but how do the Beast Wars characters fit in?"
"...Beast Wars characters?"
"Yeah. People liked Beast Wars. We're carrying over the Maximals and Megatron."
"But that doesn't really fit too well with what we were planning."
"Don't care! We're Hasbro. We own the property. Rewrite it so the Maximals and Megs are in it."
"How would Megatron even take over the planet? He was strapped onto the Autobot shuttle at the end!"
"You shitheads figure that out. You're writers. You'll think of something."
They wrote the story around the *idea* they wanted to illustrate, rather than just having stuff happen to the characters and seeing them react to it within their parameters for half an hour.
Where's Dom? He loves this sort of thing.
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Re: Revisiting BEAST MACHINES

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Shockwave wrote:So... any more reviews of more episodes? I'm waiting to see your thoughts on season 2.
I might get back to that today.
Onslaught Six wrote:So instead of reposting the whole thing I'm just going to say I don't think Sparky understands certain things about BM.
I understand Beast Machines perfectly fine. My critique is a legitimate complaint about how the writers handled the characters. You just don't like what I have to say.
You have to leave BW's bullshit behind. I don't care how Rattrap acted there!
As I told BWprowl earlier: maybe that works for you, and that's fine, for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. Again, Beast Machines is a direct sequel to Beast Wars literally picking up right where they left off. I can't leave it behind because the show is set up in such a way that it might as well be season 4 of Beast Wars. As such, these characters should act the same and it matters to me that they don't.
He's on Cybertron now and it's been taken over and his robot mode sucks ass and everybody is calling him a useless prick. He's hurt and that's why he acts "out of character." Everyone has their breaking point. Clearly Rattrap's is when all his friends call him a piece of shit and also his entire home planet is fucked up. Maybe you think Rattrap has more resolve than that. I don't. I think Rattrap is actually always this insecure and he just puts up his snarky asshole attitude as a barrier so the other Maximals don't realize how scared he is. (For fuck's sake, his catchphrase in BW was "We're all gonna die.") So finally he gets back home and everything's fucked up and he's a useless piece of crap and everyone hates him for it. Then Megatron offers him a big boost of confidence and of course he's going to take it, because at that point Megatron is the only person who even claims to like Rattrap.
The other Maximals were constantly getting on his case in Beast Wars too but there he seemed to enjoy the banter and would often push back, particularly with Optimus and Dinobot. And when the chips were down he still took responsibility for himself. It's not that Rattrap is insecure or scared, he just doesn't want to get hurt/killed. No body does. The difference with him is that he vocalizes it. A lot. As I've been saying, he still shows confidence when he confronts Megatron. He tries to blackmail him for the weapons for crying out loud. That doesn't suggest a character who has reached his breaking point, and confidence isn't what he is after there. He just wants the weapons from Megatron because that's how he is used to fighting. The thing is, Rattrap is a survivor, a scavenger and a thief. And the whole planet is shut down for the pickings. It would be so much easier for him to find another option that actually suits his personality than it would be to go deal with Megatron.
Rattrap has his feelings hurt and he makes a momentary lapse in judgement.
Pissing off Dinobot and accidentally causing Sentinel to attack them in their own base is a momentary lapse in judgement. Going to Megatron for weapons despite having other easier options to check out first is not.
"Hey Hasbro, we have this great idea for the next Transformers series! Cybertron is taken over and it's up to these guys to stop it and restore the balance!"
"Yeah but how do the Beast Wars characters fit in?"
"...Beast Wars characters?"
More likely Hasbro approached them to continue writing the show on Cybertron. Hasbro probably even suggested the nature vs. technology theme to go with the toyline they wanted to make.
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