We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[Shockwave]

I'm probably going for Sky Byte. It would be nice to see RID acknowledged and it would make the HOF have more than just G1 and BW in it.

[BWprowl]

Dang, that's actually a tough one. On the one hand, I firmly believe BM Megatron deserves to be in the HoF. On the other hand, I'd *really* like to see a non-G1, non-BW guy get in this year, and for it to be Sky-Byte, an RiD guy, after I myself said such a thing probably would never happen? Tough call, tough call.

I'm not even sure I could vote for Sky-Byte on principal with the idea that Megs would get carried in anyway, since Sky-Byte could potentially beat him. It'll come down to those two, I'm calling it.

Damn, Dom (damdom?), Sky-Byte isn't even actually a Beast Wars guy, and you still immediately default to loathing him based on the fact that he has a beast mode? RiD doesn't even have a sizeable, vocal, annoying fanbase like BW does. I think it might be time for you to talk to someone about this.

Next year is Barricade's year, man. Next year.

[Dominic]

Fair point. But, Sky-Byte is *not* HoF worthy. He is a secondary character from a footnote part of the franchise.

This year could still end up being "Hasbro inducts guys who matter alongside somebody in a fur suit".


Dom

[BWprowl]

Fair point. But, Sky-Byte is *not* HoF worthy. He is a secondary character from a footnote part of the franchise.

I disagree. RiD is worth acknowledging. It reintroduced the more ‘traditional’ Transformers series model into the franchise, which they’ve continued to follow from Armada up til now with Prime, and it all stemmed from the initial success of RiD. It’s one of the very few (I think, only) series to begin in Japan, then get localized and brought over here, toyline and all, after the fact, making it unique enough to merit attention.

You could argue that he was a ‘secondary’ character, but Sky-Byte is still an important character from the series. Many important events in the show occurred directly because of him, Koji/Yuki getting his father back, for instance. He’s unique, recognizable, and I think most importantly, indicative of RiD as a whole: Not the brightest, but well-intentioned and likable. He’s also endured, as evidenced for one by all the people who voted for his nomination (I kinda wonder how many modern Transfans have actually watched RiD), not to mention FunPub going so far as to include him in a BotCon set he technically had no place in, just to give him a new toy. RiD deserves some recognition in the HoF, and Sky-Byte is probably the best representative for that, and he’s an iconic character within the fandom in his own right.

This year could still end up being "Hasbro inducts guys who matter alongside somebody in a fur suit".

For this, I’m less interested in what they turn into than I am in what they did and what series they bring in.

Also:
>Implying Wheeljack matters.
What did he actually do that makes him so iconic? Hell, what has Wheeljack done *recently* if that's so important? He's a complete side-character, the smart scientist guy, practically the same as Rhinox.

I firmly believe all the people clamoring for a new Wheeljack toy before we finally got one in Generations were only doing so because of Dr Smoov. It's like the guys who only wanted the FenslerFilm GIJoe characters to get new figures. And you talk about whimsy, Dom.

[Dominic]

He’s unique, recognizable, and I think most importantly, indicative of RiD as a whole: Not the brightest, but well-intentioned and likable.

RiD was a filler line that as launched because Hasbro got squeemish about Transtech after Skir's life was threatened. Outside of the fandom, nobody cares. It is not iconics.

I would not use the Fan Club's figure choices as indicative of much of anything beyond what a few fans want. (Side note: Sky0Byte's HoF art is based on the "TimeLines" figure.)

Fur suit jokes aside, I cannot get behind Sky-Byte. I can see why some people like him. Hell, it makes more sense than my love for Windcharger. But, there is a difference between a character being a personal favourite and saying they are important to the franchise.

But, I do agree that better Sky-Byte than another character from BW.

Implying Wheeljack matters.
What did he actually do that makes him so iconic? Hell, what has Wheeljack done *recently* if that's so important? He's a complete side-character, the smart scientist guy, practically the same as Rhinox.

-first character to transform in animation
-iconic character from early in the franchise (the blinky eared guy).
-built plenty of McGuffins in the device heavy G1 cartoon.
-outlasted the movie in Japan. (He only died in the movied to punish Latta.)
-made it in to the recent movie.


Dom
-just cannot get behind Sky-Byte.

[Shockwave]

Well, I should probably clarify that, like what Prowl said, I'll not really be backing Sky Byte per se, but RID. I really do think the HoF should represent more of the franchise than just G1 and BW and getting a RID character in there would set the precedent. So a vote for Sky Byte isn't really for the character, it's a vote for RID.

[JediTricks]

I haven't gotten the email about this yet, but the final poll top 5 are up and are:
Sky-Byte
Rodimus (Hot Rod)
Wheeljack
(Beast Wars) Megatron
Arcee

That list is so insane I cannot even believe it. ALL OVER THE MAP! We only have 1 dog in that fight, and yet 2 more are almost-rans and we've had bolstering for Megs in the past too. I don't even know who to vote for, I only know I wouldn't vote for Sky-Byte if he were the only choice left.

I would assume that the votes I did cast would count as the first 4 slots, with those characters getting the appropriate points. Or, in this case, Prowl getting points for the first 2 slots.

In hindsight, I should have just said "Prowl" and been done with it. This is similar to the principle used in local elections. If you have a councillor at large seat, and only one candidate that you want to see go over, you just check their name, and nobody else's, even if there are 5 or 6 seats available. The idea is that you give your guy a vote, but withhold votes from the other guys. Not only is your guy pushed up by one, but the other guys are (in theory) hobbled by your lack of support.

It's not vote slots, I said "put these 4 in order of preference".

Bulleting isn't allowed in some parts of Massachusetts anymore, I think. The allowance is only when there's a very small concentrated minority in an area. Our vote has no minority districts, we have an equal voice, and we don't have same-rank vote slots on the main vote either, it's a ranked vote even there. I think I might be doubling what I said in my email though.

"Bigotry"? Really? We are doing this?

Bigotry against BW, that's what it is, ugly prejudice.

Sorry about that. Like I said in email, the fact that you got us in is impressive. Kudos for that.

Thanks.

I did specify "G1 10~15 years ago". Hasbro revived G1 in '05, and it has been a consistent presence since.

Totally missed my point. If G1 were finished 10 to 15 years ago and yet you're more into it now than ever, what does that say about your ridiculous take on BW? Hell, you guys are even reviving RID and the UT, so if there's room for that, there is room for BW.

Okay, here's the thing. When Dinobot won, it was justified. For a subsect of the fandom, BW was a big deal. And it arguably saved the franchise from total destruction. (IMO I think Transformers would have come back in some form or another in the coming "80s nostalgiabomb" that was the early 2000s. You don't think that Transformers might have gotten a reboot in 2002 alongside GI Joe and He-Man?) So when Dinobot won, I kind of just shrugged. Okay, we acknowledged that BW was an important series now. Let's move on!

Then Waspinator won. And now people are voting hugely for Rhinox apparently? That would make it three years in a row that a BW character has won the "fans choice" vote...and honestly, if you ask me that makes it seem like a disproportionate amount of "Just BW" fans exist. Rhinox doesn't, IMO, have any more right to be there than, say, Red Alert. I'm sure Red Alert isn't people's first pick to be in there--hell, we're still trying to get dudes like 'Prowl' and 'Mirage' into this, characters who pop up at some point in damn near every variation of TF. Why a 'third' BW character at this point? You start to ask yourself the question, do these guys watch/read 'any' other iterations of TF?

After today's results, I don't even know what to think. We've boosted for all those guys, Sky-Byte most notably showed up very close to our 5, so either it's a vast conspiracy by our own people or these characters resonate with different people different ways. We only have 1 of our top 5 in the final results, but 2 more are in our top 10 which they didn't even see.

I think the more interesting question is: would people have voted for Waspinator if Hasbro hadn't pre-chosen all G1 characters as winners ahead of time? My guess is no, that the votes would be more splintered if they didn't know that G1 was automatically dominating the Hall of Fame right off the bat.

I would actually argue that Prowl is not, in fact, a major Transformers character, at least not until recently. What did he actually do in the cartoon, particularly compared to Rhinox? Prowl was Prime’s other right hand man, the straight man to Jazz, and the logical one who could come up with plans sometimes. He was, honestly, no more or less important or distinctive than Rhinox, and at least Rhinox got the be the one to beat Megatron Ones And For All at the end of BW, and then half of BM wouldn’t have happened without him. You, and I, and Dom may have nominated Prowl just because IDW has used him so well in their comics the last few years, but if he makes it to the vote, most people are going to be voting for him because “Oh hey I remember that guy from the cartoon!”. Which is…exactly why groups of younger fans might vote for Rhinox. Which is perfectly fair.

I would agree with that. Rhinox also was the spiritual go-to guy for Primal and the team which was a big part of the BW concept. So he is as notable to his universe as Prowl was to G1.

The damned fandom just defaults to BW whenever somebody brings up high points in the franchise's history. Like O6 said, it is like nobody considers any other part of TF. "Beast Wars" benefited from very low expectations and the fact that the G1 cartoon as a whole was not that good. "Beast Wars" was good, but it was not good enough as a whole to warrant the amount of praise that it still gets. Nor has it aged well in a technical sense.

Compared to other TF content at the time, it was outstanding. Compared to other types of successful toy-brand storytelling at the time, it was outstanding. That is not something to sneeze at. TF content since then hasn't been all roses and sunshine, RID and the UT were embarrassing messes here in terms of the content itself, Animated was good but brief, the movies are mindless garbage, and TF:P isn't really that great. So what exactly are you comparing BW against that fares so much better in the overall?

And if we're talking about the technical sense, go watch TFTM again, that movie was light-years ahead of the cartoon and yet it looks like cheap shit now.

And, the movie had an impact on the franchise that was comparable to BW. Hell, I would argue it had a bigger impact. The movie increased the hobby's profile far moe than BW. More non-fans recognize Bayformers as TFs than they recognize Beastformers.

That's apples and oranges, how much money did Paramount put into marketing the film's bots? MILLIONS. The people might recognize the movie characters, but only as a marketing ploy.

He has not contributed much to the franchise as a whole. But, I see your point. Including Waspinator sets the bar low enough for Bulkhead.

Waspinator was comic relief in a fairly serious show. Bulkhead was just another silly big thing. Plus, Waspinator was very noteworthy for the unique voice and the unique presence of the unstoppable bad guy henchman and even having a philosophical outlook on his situation, he stands out better.

But, we cannot forget Beast Whores!

That was childish and meaningless.

Will that even work, per Hasbro, I mean? Do they ‘count’ BW Megs as being in the same slot as the already-admitted G1 Megatron? They lump the Movie guys in that way, I know.

Now we know, they are rewriting the history on these to be more Aligned-like. BW Megs is a separate guy, while Rodimus apparently didn't even get the Matrix anymore.

This is exactly my point! Seeing Rhinox get in just makes the HOF the "Mostly G1 with one Beast Guy every year" show; getting Barricade or Sky-Byte or Hot Shot in shows that TF isn't primarily concerned with two very old cartoons, and embraces all aspects of its history.

That is an argument for affirmative action, not for the individual impacts. The baseball Hall of Fame doesn't put in 1 guy from the minor leagues every year to make sure everybody's represented, they take players based on their achievements in the greater game. Rock n Roll HOF - dogshit that it is - doesn't have a "local bands" wing. Individual character impact on the greater fan base should be the only benchmark for making the HOF here, the reason movie and RID and UT don't show up more is that they aren't that great in the overall and so their high points just aren't that high. Being the king of turd mountain still means you are covered in shit. For HOF, it should be IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT, and the characters from the UT and the movie and RID have less of it. It doesn't mean they have none, just that they have less.

Wheeljack, Arcee and last year's Jazz raise a question though. While I am not in favour of characters being static over time, Hasbro's decree based changes arguably change the characters from what makes them iconic. I have no issue with "Prime" Wheeljack being a badass Wrecker type. But, one could argue that it is a significant enough departure from G1 Wheeljack to make Hasbro's official Wheeljack something "else". A similar case could be made about Arcee or "long time friend of Optimus Prime" Jazz.

Yeah, they definitely are trying to overdo the alignment shit here, I don't agree with you on the changes to Rodimus (and I hate the art they chose) but Arcee and Arcee have nothing in common except a name, they are going too far with that stuff.

RiD was a filler line that as launched because Hasbro got squeemish about Transtech after Skir's life was threatened. Outside of the fandom, nobody cares. It is not iconics.

Takara launched RID/Car Robots on their own, as I understand it, Hasbro didn't have any part in it until after it was a done-deal in Japan. Hasbro bought it as a turnkey operation basically for the reasons you gave, and the whole "trukk not munky" thing that was affecting old-school casual fans at the time.

A proud PREDACON to the core, SKY-BYTE lead his warriors into battle against AUTOBOTS or DECEPTICONS.

Uh, what? That sentence makes no sense. Maybe "leads" or "and DECEPTICONS"?


Ok, so right now I'm leaning towards Wheeljack. I'm burning out on this whole thread's arguments, but I will say that Wheeljack not only is the first transformer in the cartoon, but one of the most iconic G1 bots visually, and his character has had great impact in comics and cartoon. I certainly can't see voting Rodimus over Wheeljack.

As for Megs, he's a great character, but he's almost a caricature he's so over-the-top. I won't vote for or against an individual character based on where they come from, I think that's silliness, the merits of the character should be in the overall. Megs is a very strong character in BWBM but he was essentially a placeholder, he was "the villain, the Megatron of this story" and it affects how strongly I'd vote for him. Still, he's probably my second choice in this list.

Rodimus is for me just about nostalgia of the potential of the character, as well as how much I like the figure. But as a character on his own, it's an easy pass, there hasn't been one good use of this character for me (I haven't seen Animated yet though, and thanks to Hasbro, I might not ever get the chance without resorting to bootlegs).

Arcee stands out for being a girl, being a strong personality in the movie, and having no action figure. I don't give 2 squirts about the Prime character, the writing on her was horrible in the few episodes I saw. But I don't think I could vote for her in this pack or many others.

Sky-Byte, I hated this character in RID and I didn't like the figure either, which was just a remold of an existing BW figure IIRC. But I HAAAATED the character, I don't even remember what he did or how he sounded, I just remember being extremely turned off by all the baddies in RID (except for Scourge) and Sky-Byte was by far the most grating.

[Dominic]

Totally missed my point. If G1 were finished 10 to 15 years ago and yet you're more into it now than ever, what does that say about your ridiculous take on BW? Hell, you guys are even reviving RID and the UT, so if there's room for that, there is room for BW.

What I was saying was that "G1 was dead a bit more than 10 years ago". It got revived in 2002, flopped again. And, then, in 2005/2006, Hasbro started pushing G1 again.

BW, at this point, is where G1 was 10+ years ago.

In others words, there is G1 stuff now. There was not G1 10+ years ago.

[Sparky Prime]

Sky-Byte... Uhg. Really? It'd be nice if RiD had some recognition in the Hall of Fame, but he's not the character to represent that with. If anything he was my least favorite character in the show. Comedy relief gone wrong.

The rest of the characters, I wouldn't mind any of them getting in really.

[Onslaught Six]

You could argue that he was a ‘secondary’ character, but Sky-Byte is still an important character from the series. Many important events in the show occurred directly because of him, Koji/Yuki getting his father back, for instance. He’s unique, recognizable, and I think most importantly, indicative of RiD as a whole: Not the brightest, but well-intentioned and likable. He’s also endured, as evidenced for one by all the people who voted for his nomination (I kinda wonder how many modern Transfans have actually watched RiD), not to mention FunPub going so far as to include him in a BotCon set he technically had no place in, just to give him a new toy. RiD deserves some recognition in the HoF, and Sky-Byte is probably the best representative for that, and he’s an iconic character within the fandom in his own right.

Fuck that, Sky-Byte was no "secondary character." Maybe in TF as a whole, but he was 'Megatron's second-in-command' for the entire first half of the series, and once he was replaced by Scourge (simply on the merits of Scourge being 'fucking awesome') Sky-Byte spent almost 'every single episode' trying to sabotage Scourge and get back in Megatron's good graces. Hell, he was the only Predacon/Decepticon to escape being put into big floaty squares and sent to prison. The last shot of the entire series is him on Earth!

(I'm now imagining Sky-Byte in the Movie universe. The ruthless Autobots hunting him down in the post-RID "movie" toyline. Just Sky-Byte. Hunt for the Predacon.)

I firmly believe all the people clamoring for a new Wheeljack toy before we finally got one in Generations were only doing so because of Dr Smoov. It's like the guys who only wanted the FenslerFilm GIJoe characters to get new figures. And you talk about whimsy, Dom.

Hey, I wanted a new Wheeljack because Wheeljack rules, and he was the first dude to show up in G1's cartoon, alongside Bumblebee. I wanted a new Wheeljack because he's one of the more unique-looking '84 Autobots.

Sky-Byte... Uhg. Really? It'd be nice if RiD had some recognition in the Hall of Fame, but he's not the character to represent that with. If anything he was my least favorite character in the show. Comedy relief gone wrong.

Man, screw all you guys, Sky-Byte was hilarious. (Maybe you need to like anime to like him. Might explain why Prowl and I dig RID.)

Animated was good but brief

While I think we can all agree that Animated was cut short (due to the Hub thing), it had 39 episodes across three seasons; BW had 52 across the same amount (although "Season 1" lasted for two years, so...yeah.) And we can tell just from watching Animated that it was supposed to go to at least Season 4. Objectively BW doesn't have much more than Animated.

Plus, Waspinator was very noteworthy for ...the unique presence of the unstoppable bad guy henchman

"Unstoppable?" That's an overstatement. Waspinator could be stopped and often was; he just didn't die when he got blown to pieces for comic relief.

This is exactly my point! Seeing Rhinox get in just makes the HOF the "Mostly G1 with one Beast Guy every year" show; getting Barricade or Sky-Byte or Hot Shot in shows that TF isn't primarily concerned with two very old cartoons, and embraces all aspects of its history.

That is an argument for affirmative action, not for the individual impacts. The baseball Hall of Fame doesn't put in 1 guy from the minor leagues every year to make sure everybody's represented, they take players based on their achievements in the greater game. Rock n Roll HOF - dogshit that it is - doesn't have a "local bands" wing. Individual character impact on the greater fan base should be the only benchmark for making the HOF here, the reason movie and RID and UT don't show up more is that they aren't that great in the overall and so their high points just aren't that high. Being the king of turd mountain still means you are covered in shit. For HOF, it should be IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT, and the characters from the UT and the movie and RID have less of it. It doesn't mean they have none, just that they have less.

And I would argue that most of the characters from RID, UT or the Movies that we've brought up HAVE had that impact in some form or another. Barricade was in WFC, largely on the point of being a Movie character. (You can't tell me someone on the team just loved the Micromaster.) People have wanted a new Sky-Byte toy for years and usually when RID is mentioned, he's one of the first characters from it to be brought up. (Mostly because, if nothing else, he's an ORIGINAL character from RID, as opposed to "Optimus Prime" or "Megatron" again.) Hot Shot endured enough that he was "representing" the UT in the 2008 Universe line; he showed up in Animated (and in fact was going to be Bumblebee before the Movie fucked that all up) and is even getting a Prime toy.

A proud PREDACON to the core, SKY-BYTE lead his warriors into battle against AUTOBOTS or DECEPTICONS.

Uh, what? That sentence makes no sense. Maybe "leads" or "and DECEPTICONS"?

I'll agree with you on "leads," it should probably be "led" or "leads." (Some people are actually unaware "led" is a word.) And/or could be interchangable there; it at least makes sense in context because Sky-Byte was trying to overthrow Scourge and the Combaticons (the only Decepticons in his series) to get back in Gigatron's good graces.

Rodimus is for me just about nostalgia of the potential of the character, as well as how much I like the figure. But as a character on his own, it's an easy pass, there hasn't been one good use of this character for me (I haven't seen Animated yet though, and thanks to Hasbro, I might not ever get the chance without resorting to bootlegs).

He doesn't do much in Animated. He's pretty good in IDW's comics, though, but I know you don't read those, so.

Sky-Byte, I hated this character in RID and I didn't like the figure either, which was just a remold of an existing BW figure IIRC. But I HAAAATED the character, I don't even remember what he did or how he sounded, I just remember being extremely turned off by all the baddies in RID (except for Scourge) and Sky-Byte was by far the most grating.

That was part of the point of RID, though. The Destrongers were all pitiful idiots. Including Gigatron. That's why they're named THE DESTRONGERS. They're STRONGER than the other Destrons! No, seriously, they are dude! For real! Believe me!

Gigatron is the young schoolyard kid boasting about his totally badass rare Pokemon cards, but won't let you see them because all he has is a regular Pikachu that everyone has dozens of. Gigatron sucks so bad he couldn't even conquer a planet in his own universe, he had to go to an alternate Earth that hadn't encountered Transformers yet to try and take them over. He's trying so hard that when he first meets Fire Convoy he boasts that he's eaten planets before. (Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating now, but he definitely claims to have destroyed planets.) That's what's so endearing about the RID Preds; they're all a bunch of hilarious failures, and yet the Autobots treat them like they're this huge threat.