We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[Dominic]

(utter insanity, personal ambition causing him to rebel against the power that created him in the first place, a desperation to distance himself from and make up for his mistakes as Megatron)

Actually, the insanity and ambition were there. The rebelling against the power that created him was arguably there. The "desperation to distance himself from....Megatron" was never really there in the first place.

Eh, I guess I can see what you mean. I still think it works fantastically for the character, arguably more than the original toy (Samurai armor is inherently chunky and was never meant to look ‘fast’) but those are just, like, our opinions, man.

The original toy was an atrocity. I love the character, but would never buy any of the toys.

But different name and entirely different appearance mean I have no idea how Hasbro would treat it.

When it comes up in context, (both in BMac season 2 and in the really bad "Universe" comic that was intended to be more widely distributed) they were listed as the same guy.

Would G1, Energon, Animated, and Prime Arcee all be the same character by that logic?

it varies. And, short of intentionally misunderstanding, it is usually pretty clear. For example, Bonecrusher and Inferno are apparently popular names that more than one guy use. But, for some reason, not many TFs named Starscream, even if there are many Starscreams who are idiomatically the same guy.


Dom
-IDW said that UT and G1 Megatron are idiomatically the same....

[JediTricks]

I'm going to continue conversation that we started in the voting thread into here so as to keep that thread from getting filled up with my blah-blah-blah...

See, but Rodimus Prime fully remembers and acknowledges his time as Hot Rod, draws from those experiences and memories, plus everyone knows that Rodimus Is Hot Rod (hell, anyone remember the Blackthorne comics where it seemed like they were treating Rodimus Prime like the appears-periodically, He-Man-to-Prince-Adam-style alter-ego of Hot Rod?). Rodimus IS Hot Rod, just Hot Rod having to shoulder the responsibility of the entire Autobot army, and thus experiencing all the personality shifts that would result from such a thing. Similarly, would you say that Orion Pax is a separate character from Optimus Prime? This is as opposed to Galvatron, who acknowledges to himself his time spent as Megatron and the memories of it within himself, but strives to surpass those and become his own being, never admitting to others his previous incarnation. The fact that the two have radically different personalities helps the distinction. Galvatron USED TO be Megatron, but he’s not anymore, he’s somebody new.

Orion Pax is a separate character from Optimus Prime in my eyes, the "is" and "was" factor. Galvatron remembers being Megatron pre-IDW, both in the comic and cartoon, the first thing he does is take his revenge on Starscream, so the idea that it's DIFFERENT for Roddy, I'm not seeing it.

Though I’ll be honest, while Megatron and Galvatron are definitely ‘more separate’ characters compared to Hot Rod/Rodimus, I’d be hard-pressed to say ‘how separate’ they are, at least in ‘classic’ G1. It might come down to a question like whether Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are separate characters or not, though I’d at least say that Megatron/Galvatron are a few more degrees separated than Anakin/Vader.

An interesting comparison.

Sorry. I copy/pasted from one thread to another and missed that part.

I mentioned it in this thread too.

Oh get the fuck over it. "Oh noes! IDW is changing da chawuctas!"

It's not that they're changing them, dick, it's WHAT they're doing with them.

The toy looks too chunky, rather than fast. Think "RTS Jazz's head sculpt, but full body". It is technically sound. But, it looks wrong for the character.

You are a crazy person who is crazy. Bludgeon is a BULKY GUY in the comics:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Bludgeon-youlie1.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Bludgeonst ... lsheet.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:UKBludgeonEarthForce.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Bludgeon-P ... eGlory.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Bludgeontalesofearth.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Bludgeon-W ... tEndUK.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:SpotlightS ... Ravage.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:IDWBludgeonShell.jpg
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:SpotlightS ... ttacks.jpg
There is nothing visually to suggest he's a zippy, lithe body character. Just because he's fast doesn't mean he's a reed. Hell, I'd argue the ROTF Bludgeon is lankier than the character, he's just got more armor.

Dammit, this arguement (pre-IDW at least) is older than most of the fandom.

The classic answer to Prowl's question is that Thundercracker and the others were dead when they were rebuilt. Megatron, however, was still alive.

That doesn’t necessarily clinch it though. Energon Demolishor was dead before he was rebuilt, and he was treated as the same character (except in Superlink, where the second guy had a different name and *was* a separate character god dammit context). Or like, Optimus Primal, who died and got revived in a new Transmetal body, but remained the same character.

I have a hard time accepting anything from the UT as precedent, it is only loosely meant to flow together and doesn't seem to really be for a Western audience.

As for whether Tankorr and Rhinox being considered the same character, that there's a pretty good question. Once Tankorr got over the "Tankorr SMASH!" thing, he seemed pretty much in-character as Rhinox to me, anyway. Rhinox doing terrible things, yes, but I could buy that he was Rhinox. But different name and entirely different appearance mean I have no idea how Hasbro would treat it.

Yeah, that's a complication, Rhinox's spark makes it abundantly clear that he IS Tankorrr, he speaks in his voice and everything.

Just to make the whole issue even more vague, didn't the video clips for the inductees last year use clips of, say, both G1 and Movie Ironhide, f'rinstance? So if you vote for one character with a particular name, by extension, you're including every similar character with the same name? Would G1, Energon, Animated, and Prime Arcee all be the same character by that logic?

Yes, you are correct that they multiversed the characters, so to Ironhide I'd say yes that'd happen, but not so sure to Arcee because of how different the characters are physically as well as written.

-IDW said that UT and G1 Megatron are idiomatically the same....

Fuck it, that is crazy nonsense and I'll have no more of it. IDW has taken it too damned far.

[Dominic]

Optimus remembers being Orion Pax.

It's not that they're changing them, dick, it's WHAT they're doing with them.

Explain.


Dom
-screw the 80s...

[BWprowl]

It's not that they're changing them, dick, it's WHAT they're doing with them.

Explain.

I'll do it for him: IDW Galvatron is a bland generic threat, with nothing defining about him for most of his appearance in the series, as compared to 80’s G1 Galvatron who had charisma and/or insanity going for him, among other things. IDW Galvy is also just an idiot, from blindly trusting random visions he gets from the Heart of Darkness about a generic evil thing he has to beat up, to sending his henchmen after Rodimus in the most threatening way possible when he ‘just wanted to talk’ to Roddy. To elaborate against your comparisons:

Actually, the insanity and ambition were there. The rebelling against the power that created him was arguably there. The "desperation to distance himself from....Megatron" was never really there in the first place.

The insanity was not there. Galvatron was presented as being the most logical and together of Nemesis Prime’s crew throughout the ‘-ation’ arc, who went about his job of just blowing things up with a cold, calculating presence that suggested no instability or even a degree of reveling in the power he commanded (compare that panel from Target: 2006 where Galvatron just takes everyone’s shots and laughs his ass off; I loved that part and it strongly defined that element of the character for me). They even had many, many chances to paint Galvatron with degrees of insanity in Heart of Darkness, and eschewed them completely, making him out to be a borderline Marty-Stu Messiah figure (only in Chaos did someone *finally* explore that Galvatron’s decisions had entered fanaticism). The ambition didn’t arise until the end of Revelation, when he abandoned Nemesis Prime, and even that was more of a ‘greater good’ sort of thing, where he was still doing the Dead Universe/Heart of Darkness’s bidding, with no personal ambition driving it. Not once did we get him questioning his subservience to the entity, or asserting that he didn’t want to be commanded. There was nothing to the character that defined him as Galvatron; he may as well have been brought in simply because Furman liked the name and design. This might have been fine if the character we did get was halfway interesting, but like JT said, they didn’t do anything with him. There was hardly anything to him until Chaos.

JT, if your way of thinking has you consider Optimus and Orion Pax separate characters, then it is totally within bounds for you to think of Hot Rod and Rodimus as separate. Fair enough.

EDIT: And I'm starting to realize that Rhinox/Tankorr might not have been the best illustration of this sort of thing for me to bring up since, yeah, it's pretty clear that they were one and the same. Might be better to ask if Silverbolt and Jetstorm are separate characters.

Spoiler

The Wiki, of course, just lists all three Vehicon General alter-egos on pages separate from who they were built around, Tankorr included. But then they have Universe Tankorr just listed stuck on as part of BM Tankorr's page, even though they're, you know, separate guys from rather different universes. Then again, it's important to remember that the Wiki is run by nimrods.

[Dominic]

They even had many, many chances to paint Galvatron with degrees of insanity in Heart of Darkness, and eschewed them completely, making him out to be a borderline Marty-Stu Messiah figure (only in Chaos did someone *finally* explore that Galvatron’s decisions had entered fanaticism).

Uh, considering that "Heart of Darkness" was direct set up for "Chaos", it is not unreasonable to assume that Galvatron was intended to be stark raving loony in HoD. They just did not have a narration box saying "Galvatron is a damned crazy ass."

As for Jetstorm and Silverbolt, they were the same guy as well. Silverbot's dialogue and explication after being changed back indicates as much. And, the first 3 generals were created with the same process. It Tankorr=Rhinox, then Jetstorm=Silverbot and Thrust=Waspinator. No amount of fans being unable to accept that Rhinox was a jerk for a bit is going to change this.

[Shockwave]

G1 Galvatron = Megatron. IDW Galvatron =/= Megatron. And, I'm assuming the IDW one is based more on the original G1 Tech Spec which had him as a separate character anyways. So there really is no original "Galvatron" characterization beyond "Megatron on crack".

As for Rodimus/Hot Rod, Orion/Optimus, I regard them all as the same character. Hot Rod = Rodimus Prime (especially since Hasbro seems to be specifically now referring to Hot Rod as Rodimus and merging it even further). Orion Pax= Optimus Prime in my book since Optimus is just Orion reconstructed and/or matrixized. I can however, see precedent for the reverse (Orion =/= Optimus) given that IDW just made an entire issue with their "death of Optimus Prime" ending with Prime saying "I am Orion Pax again and now I can do what I want".

Actually, now that I think about this, I think in most cases where a character changes their body and name they get regarded as a new character I kind of get the impression that this is the norm. The old character "dies" even though it's technically still the same spark/life essence. BW first episode has perfectly good bots getting new forms and choosing new names, essentially becoming new characters in the process. So calling BM Jetstorm a different character than Silverbolt is not entirely without precedent. This even carries over to the UT with Tidal Wave/Mirage. And also with Demolishor and I think Cyclonus as well (didn't he become Snowcat?). Obviously there can be exceptions, like when Jetstorm changed BACK to Silverbolt. Once the original persona and name are restored then it becomes the same character.

I liked ROTF Bludgeon and that was one of the few movie bots I didn't like having to part with.

Shockwave
-Actually likes IDW Galvatron.

[Sparky Prime]

As for Jetstorm and Silverbolt, they were the same guy as well. Silverbot's dialogue and explication after being changed back indicates as much. And, the first 3 generals were created with the same process. It Tankorr=Rhinox, then Jetstorm=Silverbot and Thrust=Waspinator. No amount of fans being unable to accept that Rhinox was a jerk for a bit is going to change this.

All Silverbolt said was that he enjoyed being free from his code of honor, but that in itself doesn't indicate they were the same guy. The way Rhinox described it, he said he was conscious inside Tankorr able to watch and learn, but unable to reach the surface or communicate himself. I guess you might compare it to like sitting in the backseat while someone else drives. So actually the evidence in the show is that the Vehicon generals are separate entities from Silverbolt, Rhinox and Waspinator.

I've always thought Rhinox and Tankorr ended up merging into one since the Maximals never used the organic goop or reformatted his body to suppress/delete the Vehicon personality, like we saw with Silverbolt and Waspinator.

[Dominic]

BW first episode has perfectly good bots getting new forms and choosing new names, essentially becoming new characters in the process.

Changing a name does not change who somebody is though. I use several names. But, I am still me. A character changing their name, even with a physical upgrade, does not change who/what they are.


Dom

[Shockwave]

BW first episode has perfectly good bots getting new forms and choosing new names, essentially becoming new characters in the process.

Changing a name does not change who somebody is though. I use several names. But, I am still me. A character changing their name, even with a physical upgrade, does not change who/what they are.


Dom

The difference here is that Cheetor's statement seems to imply that he had another name prior to choosing Cheetor based on his new form. And that by choosing the new name to suit the new form, he was essentially leaving behind the previous persona. I guess the closest analogy in human terms would be like someone having a sex change operation. The person known as Jack is now Julie and "Jack" is essentially dead.

Shockwave
-Obi-Wan regards Vader and Anakin as two separate characters. In "continuity".

[JediTricks]

I will chime in on the general discussion a little later, but I wanted to ask you guys a question about the process...

Which is more important to this Hall of Fame voting: the passion of the individual voter, or the voice of the group even if it means a lower common denominator?

I ask this because we'll probably have to break a tie, so I can either break it with the FEWEST votes (which means that those who voted for it are more passionate about those choices) or the MOST votes (which means it showed up on more lists, but in lower ranks, hence the lowest common denominator). I've been doing Hall of Fame voting for a decade now in Star Wars, and to be honest I've ping-ponged my opinion on the matter back and forth probably a dozen times. Sometimes I see the value in the passion, but more often I'm swayed by the idea of the group voice.

In this situation, I'm leaning slightly towards the MOST votes, the group voice. If there were either more voters or more votes per voter, I'd probably be swayed the other way because too many votes per person can lead to lame votes to fill space, and more voters averages that high-voted passion across a great enough cross-section to secure good data.

Ironically, I'm now convinced that next year we'll be putting at least 8 votes down to cull our top 5.