Comics are Awesome II

[andersonh1]

Grant Morrison continues to not only come up with off-the-wall ideas, but to give his characters life and energy, something George Perez ought to be doing.

And, the "most predictable event of the year" goes to "Action Comics" for "Grant Morrison does something praise-worthy despite the complaints of early and impatient nay-sayers". (Sorry, but this is a thing for me. For all my complaints about Morrison, he has more raw skill than any other writer that I can think of, in or out of comics.)

He's a good idea guy, judging by what I've read over the past few years. His grasp of narrative structure is often lacking, going from point A to point D without explaining B and C, leaving the readers to guess. But he's done a good job with Action Comics.

In defense of Perez, he is primarily an artist (and a damned good one).

I agree, he's an excellent artist.

He likely never developed anything more than the grinding style you describe here. He can tell a story with a beginning, middle and end. But, it would not do to expect much beyond that form him. On the other hand, his more simplistic run is a good alternative for people who cannot "get" Morrison.

And I can see where he's trying to do something with the characters, but it's just flat. To give him his due, he's packing a lot of story in each issue, so it takes some time to read through and digest what's happening. That's better than most "five minutes and I'm done" writers give me.

[Sparky Prime]

Qs (or is it Cues?) are omnipotent anyway, right? They could mate, reproduce asexually, or breathe life into a clay statue of a baby if they felt like it, I'd have thought. Of course, I didn't pay the least bit of attention to Star Trek between Next Generation and new movie, so if it's established elsewhere, I wouldn't know.

It's just Q, or the Q. You're right the Q are omnipotent and they are immortal. Which is why they don't normally reproduce at all, no need when your race can live forever. During Voyager's run, the crew found a Q who claimed life in the Continuum had become boring and stagnant, to the point he no longer wanted to be a part of it. Other Q agreed with his ideas that the Continuum had become stagnant causing a Q Civil War, which only came to an end with Q and Q mating and the birth of... Q (junior). It's also worth noting Q spent a majority of that episode trying to woo Janeway, suggesting the Q need to have a partner and cannot reproduce asexually or by means of their powers.

[Onslaught Six]

Sorry I'm not jumping into the Watchmen discussion, but I've never read it and have no feelings about the prequels one way or the other.

What the fuck!

Guess I'm buying a copy for Anderson now too. (Or Shocktrek can give him mine when he's done with it.)

Prowl, I get it. You're worried. That's fine! I'm only even cautiously optimistic but I don't think the *idea* is inherently bad. It's all in how you see it. No, you don't need to know anything more about the Minutemen to understand their role in the original story.

But what's to say this can't tell 'its own' story? Yes, it'll take place in the Watchmen universe, and use its characters, but I'm sure it'll have something 'else' to say that's different. I'll agree with you that a story along the lines of "Comedian was abused as a child" would be pretty dumb, but nobody says they're going to do that.

For example, there's that period where Rorschach and Nite Owl are working together to clean up the gangs. That could be a thing! It could all be about Rorschach's cynical worldview and how he reaches that point, for example. I know the original book makes it seem like it's such a snap decision--he burns that dude alive and the way he says it, he wasn't Rorschach before then. He was Kovacs pretending to be Rorschach. I want to see that! I want to see the optimistic Rorschach who thinks he can actually help people and that there's good in everyone. And maybe it wasn't as black and white as he makes it out to be--there's a good chance he's an unreliable narrator, after all. Maybe he was becoming a cynical asshole about people for years before that. We'll just have to see.

If Watchmen is a deconstruction of superhero comics in the 1980s then these could just as easily be a deconsturction of superhero comics now--or even of superhero comics of the past. It could harp on the idea of continuing series and unnecessary prequels. We don't know! And we won't know for a couple months.

[Dominic]

Morrison's grasp of narrative structure is second to none. He does not write in a linear way, but that is by choice. All of the important stuff is on or between the first and last pages.

Look at "Final Crisis", (to use a recent example), all the plots paralelled in terms of where they were at any given time, thus evey sub-plot resolved in the last two issues, even though in context they would have happened further apart. There was even an in-context reason for this, owing to the space/time-compression happening around Earth.

And I can see where he's trying to do something with the characters, but it's just flat. To give him his due, he's packing a lot of story in each issue, so it takes some time to read through and digest what's happening. That's better than most "five minutes and I'm done" writers give me.

It sounds like the problem is that he is packing a lot in to each issue, but it is nothing worth while. Is that he lacks style and/or ideas?

What the fuck?

Fixed. Agreed though.

I figured that "Watchmen" was pretty much required reading for comics fans.

If Watchmen is a deconstruction of superhero comics in the 1980s then these could just as easily be a deconsturction of superhero comics now--or even of superhero comics of the past. It could harp on the idea of continuing series and unnecessary prequels. We don't know! And we won't know for a couple months.

And yet more possibilities..... (For the record, DC has organizational habit/skill for exactly the kinds of things that O6 is talking about. I may not be happy with them at the moment, but on average they are the smarter of the big two.)

And, it bears repeating that the only reason that "Watchmen" was so self-contained to begin with is because Moore was not allowed to use established characters in context.


Dom
-reading "Batman International" this week.

[Shockwave]

Sorry I'm not jumping into the Watchmen discussion, but I've never read it and have no feelings about the prequels one way or the other.

What the fuck!

Guess I'm buying a copy for Anderson now too. (Or Shocktrek can give him mine when he's done with it.)

Prowl, I get it. You're worried. That's fine! I'm only even cautiously optimistic but I don't think the *idea* is inherently bad. It's all in how you see it. No, you don't need to know anything more about the Minutemen to understand their role in the original story.

But what's to say this can't tell 'its own' story? Yes, it'll take place in the Watchmen universe, and use its characters, but I'm sure it'll have something 'else' to say that's different. I'll agree with you that a story along the lines of "Comedian was abused as a child" would be pretty dumb, but nobody says they're going to do that.

For example, there's that period where Rorschach and Nite Owl are working together to clean up the gangs. That could be a thing! It could all be about Rorschach's cynical worldview and how he reaches that point, for example. I know the original book makes it seem like it's such a snap decision--he burns that dude alive and the way he says it, he wasn't Rorschach before then. He was Kovacs pretending to be Rorschach. I want to see that! I want to see the optimistic Rorschach who thinks he can actually help people and that there's good in everyone. And maybe it wasn't as black and white as he makes it out to be--there's a good chance he's an unreliable narrator, after all. Maybe he was becoming a cynical asshole about people for years before that. We'll just have to see.

If Watchmen is a deconstruction of superhero comics in the 1980s then these could just as easily be a deconsturction of superhero comics now--or even of superhero comics of the past. It could harp on the idea of continuing series and unnecessary prequels. We don't know! And we won't know for a couple months.

Well don't go actually spending money on this, I can forward it to Anderson (and I suppose we could consider it part of a trade for that Railracer deal we still have pending).

I think Prowl's main point is that if this new thing is going to be "it's own story" then why bother making it a "Watchmen" story and instead make it something that actually is totally new? And I actually think this is one of Dom's main complaints with fanfic. If the story you want to tell is completely new and different then why use characters and settings from an existing franchise unless it's somehow going to build on/or add to the existing fiction? To answer the question I was asked about a new movie involving secondary characters from "The Jerk", the reason I wouldn't want to see that explored is that it wouldn't add anything to the original movie. It would essentially be something new and unrelated which should be left as totally unrelated (IE: make a new franchise rather than cash in on the success of an existing by slapping it's name on it).

[Onslaught Six]

I can understand that, and given Watchmen's beginnings I can even see it happening. But every once in a while things just click, y'know? I mean, why would you want to tell your own Spider-Man story? Can't you just create an original character, like Webman or something?

Now I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but we'll see. Right now it's just speculation.

[138 Scourge]

And now, some good news to balance out the Fake Watchmen books:New comics with Power Pack in 'em.

It's not the Sumerak/Gurihiru versions of the kids, but y'know, I think it'll do.

[Shockwave]

I can understand that, and given Watchmen's beginnings I can even see it happening. But every once in a while things just click, y'know? I mean, why would you want to tell your own Spider-Man story? Can't you just create an original character, like Webman or something?

Now I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but we'll see. Right now it's just speculation.

I get that but here's the hole in that argument: If these guys are wanting to tell a new story that uses characters with the same power sets and character traits as the Watchmen, then fine because it's "Watchmen". But if you're just gonna tell a story that's so unrelated then why bother?

See this I think is why Dom and Gomess were arguing about his fanfic. Gomess wants a BW story based on the tech specs rather than the tv show. IDW ain't gonna pony that up any time soon so if he wants it, he's gonna have to do it himself. I think where Dom really got put off by the idea was when Gomess suggested genders for the various characters. Now, I'm assuming G had reasons for choosing the genders that he did but Dom pretty much just saw it as "they're girls coz Fembots!" But I digress. The point is, G is writing a story set in that setting with those characters because he has ideas that those are specifically suited to. If he wanted to write something that was so completely different from the original concept then I'm sure he'd write something original.

[Gomess]

Oh man, this one again? =p I almost thought you'd accidentally reposted something from the old Razorbeast thread. But I see the link.

Now, I'm assuming G had reasons for choosing the genders that he did but Dom pretty much just saw it as "they're girls coz Fembots!"

The genders were a combination of there not being enough female TFs (I would have NO genders were it up to me, but Hasbro started it!), plenty of BW characters' bios being gender-neutral, and several of the beast modes clearly being female. So, long as it didn't conflict with canon, why not?

But yeah, we all know why Dom disapproved, so there's no reason to go over it again, but I'm happy to answer questions like that.

Gom
-doesn't remember anyone complaining when Sonar was made female DON'T BRING UP THE FACT IT WAS CANON O_o ...This new Watchmen stuff is a good example of official fanfic, 'cos how many people are just gonna ignore this stuff? LOTS. Everyone has their own individual canon.

[Dominic]

It may have been SunBow that started it I think. This seems right, given Hasbro's documented reluctance to introduce female characters in "GI Joe".

This new Watchmen stuff is a good example of official fanfic,

"Official fanfic" is the kind of oxymoron that undermines comprehension of the words. If it is official, that means it was licensed or produced by the property's owner. By virtue of that, it has more legitimacy than fanfic.

Time Warner (through DC) owns "Watchmen". If Time Warner says something specific about the characters or setting, there is no disputing it. The property belongs to Time Warner and they can define or muddle it as they wish. If a fan says something contrary to that, they are (either through simple ignorance or stubborn petulance) wrong. If I consistently miss the part of "Watchmen" (comic or movie) that covers the history of the Comedian and the origional Spectre, then I am going to think that the second Spectre needs to grow the hell up. Simple ignorance. If I see the whole thing, and then try to say "oh, the Comedian was not such a bad guy", I am a fucking idiot. Stubborn petulance.

Yes, official content can be bad. It can be fanfic quality. But, that does not make it less official or even resonant with fans. (Look at most of Fun Publications' output since 2005.)

Everyone has their own individual canon.

There are questions of degree and motive.

For example, the G1 Constructicons have 3 origins in the cartoon alone. These origins are wholly contrary.

Personal canon is the only way to reconcile this if trying to consider which is the right answer. Some people go for precedent, and would choose "Heavy Metal War" as being correct. Others might choose "The Secret of Omega Supreme" because it has direct impact on the origin of another character as well. Others still might choose "Five Faces of Darkenss" because it was the most recent and presumably most accurate.

Finally, (and I am more or less in this group), people might assume that all 3 are wrong to one degree or another because all 3 have been contradicted.

So far as I know, there is no official answer on this, and all three of the above origins are official. I could pick one and go with it. I could even reconcile the guys in FFoD as being a different team of engineers and write off the line in "Heavy Metal War" as Megatron blundering when he shoudl have said "rebuilt them in these caves". Now, if I am doing that just so I can sleep at night, that is one thing. But, if I am doing that because I want "Strange Secret of Omega Supreme" to be the legit origin, then I am being a self-indulgent boob.

The 1986 movie is rife with the sorts of mistakes that invite legitimate misreadings and all but obligate viewers to fill in the blanks. (Seriously, how many of the characters who die in the movie stay dead, even within the movie?)

But, if I go with the most self indulgent reading and/or expand that in to something completely different, I am going beyond mentally papering over sloppiness by the writers or artists. (And, for the record, I am increasingly annoyed when I am expected to do that.) At that point, I am being a self indulgent twerp who just needs it their way.

One of the *worst* fanfics I wrote, (though not the worst), was set post G2. The high-concept was that Starscream's brush with the Matrix in the comics gave him messianic delusions. He set himself as a cult leader and recruited a fair number of Cybertronian troopers. And, yes, this was every bit as bad as you are thinking.

Strike that. It was worse. It was fucking terrible. I picked and chose characters that made no sense for the story because I wanted to use them. I even mis-handled characters that did make sense because I was not concerned with using them correctly so much as I just wanted to use them. Oh, and it was a tedious recounting of stuff wot happened. (I am man enough to admit that I wrote some pointless trash back in the day.) Even while I was writing it, a little voice in my head was screaming "noooooooooooooooooooooooo", but I did not listen because this was going to be "G2 my way".

I *wish* that I still had a copy of it. I would transcribe it and post it here as an example of everything that is bad and wrong with fanfic. I am half tempted to do a custom of Starscream from that story, just as an act of self-mortification.


For those wondering, I am calling my worst a story that was set during the 1986 movie. I avoided the major sins of "fan character witnesses or participates in major event" and "major event is ignored or undone". I papered over Snarl's absense in a pretty logical way, (he was left behind during the evacuation). But, I call it my worst simply by virtue of being set during the movie and thus piggy-backing.


Dom
-confession is good for the soul....