Comics are Awesome II

A general discussion forum, plus hauls and silly games.
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BWprowl
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by BWprowl »

Onslaught Six wrote:I'll be honest, I'm down to read at least a few of these. Some I'll wait and see what everyone else is saying, but honestly there's no way I won't be at least morbidly interested. There's always the chance it'll be a trainwreck but I'm sure that these guys will treat the material with the respect it deserves. With Superman or Batman or The Flash or somebody, you can tell a shit story and kind of get away with it, because eighteen other Superman or Batman stories came out the same month, or are available in trades, or whatever, and in all likelihood your story will be rebooted or overwritten in the next decade anyway. Watchmen, though, is *it.* For years it was just That Comic and nothing else. It's got a reverence to it, I feel, and that's probably part of why they've waited so long to do this. (Or now that the hype from the movie has finally died down, they're looking for ways to get sales for the original book back up somehow. EITHER WAY.)
You really think this is it? They've opened up Pandora's Box, there's no going back now. Do the math on those issues, that's 34 goddamn comics. There is now more fake Watchmen than real Watchmen. If any of it does even remotely well, it won't stop here. Watchmen'll be folded into the mainline DC Universe by next year. END TIMES!

Part of me wants to boycott the whole stupid project, but the other part wants to actually check them out so I can legitimately complain about them with everyone else. Fuck DC.

Seriously, this is some Disney-level 'Let's make quick cash-in sequels to Cinderella and Beauty & The Beast and Lion King and fucking Bambi' bullshit.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Onslaught Six »

BWprowl wrote:You really think this is it? They've opened up Pandora's Box, there's no going back now. Do the math on those issues, that's 34 goddamn comics. There is now more fake Watchmen than real Watchmen.
Really? We're doing this? I mean, yeah, statistically at least one of the books is going to suck (luck of the draw) and if we're going by comic book statistics, one of them will be cancelled before the second issue ever hits stands ("Nite Owl had low preorders, so we cancelled it.") and one of them will be late ("Doc Manhattan has a lot of art. Also, penises.") but hey.

Here's my thing, especially about what you said: 'fake' Watchmen. As if these are somehow less legitimate? As Dom might say, they're official. They're canon. They count whether you want them to or not. And just because Moore and Gibbons aren't involved (surely by their own choice and not DC's) doesn't mean they're automatically bad.

Because Frank Miller didn't create Batman. Chris Claremont didn't create the X-Men. Geoff Jones didn't create Green Lantern. Furman didn't create Grimlock. Grant Morrison didn't create Animal Man. Neil Gaiman didn't create Sandman*. That's the nature of comics, different writers come in all the time. If Moore honestly had a problem with it, he would have written the sequels himself.

*This is the worst example on my list since Gaiman arguably reinvented Sandman to the point where he was unrecognizable as the original incarnations, but he didn't create the property and still worked in Wesley Dodds and the second guy.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Dominic »

I largely agree with O6. But, he left out one very imortant point: Moore does not *own* "Watchmen". The only reason they are new characters at all is that DC did not let him use the Charlton characters post CoIE. Time Warner owns "Watchmen", and they have every right to publish these books.
•RORSCHACH (4 issues) – Writer: Brian Azzarello. Artist: Lee Bermejo
•MINUTEMEN (6 issues) – Writer/Artist: Darwyn Cooke
•COMEDIAN (6 issues) – Writer: Brian Azzarello. Artist: J.G. Jones
•DR. MANHATTAN (4 issues) – Writer: J. Michael Straczynski. Artist: Adam Hughes
•NITE OWL (4 issues) – Writer: J. Michael Straczynski. Artists: Andy and Joe Kubert
•OZYMANDIAS (6 issues) – Writer: Len Wein. Artist: Jae Lee
•SILK SPECTRE(4 issues) – Writer: Darwyn Cooke. Artist: Amanda Conner
Each new issue that is released will feature a two-page back-up story called Curse of The Crimson Corsair that will be written by original series editor Len Wein and with art by original series colorist John Higgins.

The 2 page back-up would normall strike me as a crass way to force people to buy the whole thing. But, with a self-contained property like "Watchmen", most people who are in for one are going to be in for all.

I recognize Azarello's name, but cannot associate it with anything. That means he has never made an impression on me either way. I have nothing against Cooke. But, that JLA story he published +10 years ago is way the hell over-rated. I jknow that Straczynski has some legit credit to his name. But, his comics work has been atrocious.

The Wein "Ozymandias" book tempts me though.

Most likely I will be skipping these, but you can bet I will at least flip through all of them.


Dom
-was not planning on posting in this thread this week....then this happened.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Onslaught Six wrote:Here's my thing, especially about what you said: 'fake' Watchmen. As if these are somehow less legitimate? As Dom might say, they're official. They're canon. They count whether you want them to or not. And just because Moore and Gibbons aren't involved (surely by their own choice and not DC's) doesn't mean they're automatically bad.

Because Frank Miller didn't create Batman. Chris Claremont didn't create the X-Men. Geoff Jones didn't create Green Lantern. Furman didn't create Grimlock. Grant Morrison didn't create Animal Man. Neil Gaiman didn't create Sandman*. That's the nature of comics, different writers come in all the time. If Moore honestly had a problem with it, he would have written the sequels himself.
Here’s the thing though: Despite what Dom says about the characters only being ‘original’ because of DC mandate or whatever, that still happened very early in the game, and with the story we ended up with, Moore and Gibbons really *did* create these characters. The story they told, with Rorschach’s outlook and his chapter’s fixation on symmetry, to the Comedian’s persona and the whole reason he even calls himself the Comedian, were all written around those characters they created, and had nothing to do with the Question and Peacemaker and whoever. That was part of the appeal of Watchmen, especially as a comic book: That Moore and Gibbons created a single, complete story for these characters with a full arc, that told what it wanted to tell and wrapped the hell up. Turning it into what’s effectively an ongoing series (there are enough issues here to account for three year’s worth of Expanded Universe Watchmen content, and I refuse to believe it will end there) defeats the entire purpose of the series and twists it from a single story that had a point into just Another Ongoing Comic Book Series. Yeah, some great writers have told some great stories with passed-around characters like the Transformers, the Justice League, and Spider-Man, and stuff, but those characters were always intended to be used that way- as part of a long-running franchise that could be pushed again and again. I like to think that Watchmen was supposed to be a little bit more than that. Yeah, it’s still a comic book about super heroes, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed to just be A Story.

I mean, you like Gaiman’s Sandman, right? How would you *really* feel if, all this time after the original series was over, eight other douches came in with forty more comic books about the same set of characters, set in the same story-timeline-whatever, and claimed that this was all really ‘the rest of the story’. Would you really think that was okay? What if someone who wasn’t Brian Lee O’Malley put out twelve more volumes of Scott Pilgrim and said it was all *totally* connected to the original work? And these are all just comic book examples, which is stupid that in this medium it’s somehow okay. Can you imagine the insanity that would stir up if someone who wasn’t Tarantino put out a sequel to Pulp Fiction? Everyone would call bullshit on that! Why does DC get to get away with this just because ‘lolcomicbooks’?

Some things just shouldn’t be turned into franchises. There’s a point where good taste should interfere with that judgment call.

Even if it wasn’t his story, what would Alan Moore say about a series that was just a bunch of characters from stories most people consider ‘classics’, tossed in by writers who don’t own them into a story that has little to do with their original context all just for-

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Yeah, okay, whatever. I'm still pissed though.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Why are you slamming the creative teams? The biggest bum on that roster is either MJS or Lee. And, really, as much as I *hate* everything MJS has done in comics, I am not going to piss on him and say that he is completely without talent. (I have been meaning to sit down and watch B5 for years. I might even get around to it at some point.

The only Charlton character to get *any* meaningful use pre-CoIE was the Canary/Sprectre. The Blue Beetle was so underused that a *new* Beetle was introduced during CoIE. (The original Beetle borders on being public domain to this day, which is a whole different topic.) The characters who the Watchmen are derived from were most ciphers in '85. (Of course, it should be noted that Canary and Spectre have a great deal in common in terms of physical appearance and mommy-legacy issues. ) Moore would have been adding as much, if not more, to them as he did with Swamp Thing or what Morrison did with Animal Man. (And, Morrison gave tacit consent to the next writer to make Animal Man a different character when he left that book with issue 26, which I like despite the better parts of my nature.)

But, Animal Man was a previous established character, so people do not conflate "defining run" with ownership any more than they do with Michelinie on "Iron Man", Simonson on "The Mighty Thor" or Byrne on "Sensational She-Hulk". Moore essentually created knock-offs of established characters that were made off-limits by an editorial decree and told an editorially autonomous story. But, he does not own the characters any more that Gruenwald owns the Squandron Supreme. (And, for the record, my gripe with new "Squadron Supreme" comics is not that Gruenwald is not writing them, it is that they are written by bums, undermine Gruenwald's work *and* add nothing in return.)

At the very least let these books be published and pick on actual *substantial* problems, if any.


Dom
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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My problem isn't with the creative teams, I have no beef with them. Hell, I love Darwyn Cooke to bits. My problem is with the idea of expanding/sequelizing Watchmen in the first place. Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say I would be unhappy even with Moore writing a sequel to Watchmen. I can't be the only one who thinks this way, but there are some things I like *because* they are complete, and self-contained, and finished, and sequels to them would just come across as cheap, pointless cash-ins that only dampen the legacy of the original. I wouldn't want more episodes of FLCL, I wouldn't want more volumes of Scott Pilgrim, I wouldn't want a fourth Back to the Future, I wouldn't want a sequel to Pulp Fiction, and sure as hell don't want sequels and prequels to Watchmen. It's just...you don't *do* that! Leave it alone! What's next, sequels to Titanic and Citizen Kane and Crime and Punishment and Lord of the Flies? It gets ridiculous.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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But, why are those things not done?

I am not saying that everything warrants a sequel. Nor am I saying that sequels should not be praised of panned on their merits. But, why are sequels wrong, and why assume that they are inherently bad?


Dom
-people had these sorts of arguements about "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" more than once over the decades.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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90% of the time, the motivating factor for a sequel is money. The amount of importance placed on money in a creative project is inversely proportional to that project's ultimate quality. This is one of the most accepted sacred truths of life, isn't it? Even protozoans understand this stuff.

You gotta be real Sonic 2 or real lucky to get a sequel that tops a revered classic.

I thought this Watchmen expansion stuff was a joke at first, and it's such an obvious cynical cash-in it may as well be.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Dominic wrote:But, why are those things not done?

I am not saying that everything warrants a sequel. Nor am I saying that sequels should not be praised of panned on their merits. But, why are sequels wrong, and why assume that they are inherently bad?


Dom
-people had these sorts of arguements about "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" more than once over the decades.
Not all sequels are bad. Hell, Kamen Rider's been going strong (off and on) for forty years, but that's because that's the sort of series that can *do* that. Star Trek's about Adventures in Space, it could theoretically go on forever. But some things, like Watchmen, set out specifically to tell a single, contained story, and make a point, and they did that, and they're done, and they should be left alone. They're good *because* they're so focused and singular, and expanding them (let's not kid ourselves) for a quick buck and some hype just reeks of bad taste.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Dominic »

Yeah, economics play a roll here. But, there is nothing wrong with that.

The writers and artists involved could well be able to expand upon and add to the point and tone of the original "Watchmen". I am curious about what Cooke does with The Minute Men. How will he reconcile his flair for nostaligia with a series that will by necessity have menacing over-tones. (Most of the main cast are destined to die horribly, some at the hands of others.)


Dom
-would not rule out DC creating an "Earth Zero" team...., which would likely not be so good.
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