Transformers - ongoing series

[Dominic]

Spike probably would not have cared. If somebody, be it Swindle or the human lookin facsimilie, were selling technologically advanced weapons, Spike (and likely other people) would probably have been all to happy to buy them. (Jazz seemed pretty sure that somebody above Spike was in on it.)

Nobody would care if the vendor was a giant alien robot if they were selling a quality products. And, lets fact it, Swindle was selling some good stuff.

And, either way, Spike illegally bought weapons from somebody, and repeatedly misappropriated public resources. He would be in plenty enough trouble for that to warrant going on the lamb.


Dom
-some stuff, you gotta go down for.

[Sparky Prime]

Spike probably would not have cared. If somebody, be it Swindle or the human lookin facsimilie, were selling technologically advanced weapons, Spike (and likely other people) would probably have been all to happy to buy them. (Jazz seemed pretty sure that somebody above Spike was in on it.)

Why wouldn't Spike care? He (understandably) hates the Transformers for trying to wipe out the planet. Why would he be so trusting to buy weapons from them? Especially when he later proves he doesn't even need those weapons to take out a Transformer.

Nobody would care if the vendor was a giant alien robot if they were selling a quality products. And, lets fact it, Swindle was selling some good stuff.

You keep over looking the fact that those same giant alien robots had just devastated the planet. People most certainly would care if their weapons were coming from the same race that nearly wiped out the planet.

And, either way, Spike illegally bought weapons from somebody, and repeatedly misappropriated public resources. He would be in plenty enough trouble for that to warrant going on the lamb.

Considering Jazz seemed to think the government already knew and was looking the other way... I can't see Spike being in that much trouble for that.

[Dominic]

Jazz went to the media. At that point, somebody is going down.

And, a desire to kill the giant alien robots would make people less concerned about exactly where the very effective weapons were coming from.

Spike taking out Scrapper was impressive, even if we assume that the acid was Cybertronian. But, it was not very stealthy or efficient.



Dom
-Costa is assuming people have enough grounding to get this.

[Shockwave]

I'm just gonna wheigh in here and say that if alien robots are wiping out my planet and I have chance to buy the weapons they use, I'm gonna do it, regardless of who I'm buying them from. Oh, it's one of them? Great! I'll buy the weapon, the shoot the seller. Or keep alive long enough to buy enough weapons for my friends and THEN shoot him. Then just to rub it in even further, after shooting him, I'll steal his money and make out with his sister. Alright, maybe I would just shoot him and steal his money. Point is, strategically speaking when you're facing an opposing force with superior technology, your best chance of survival is acquiring said technology to use against your opponent. Swindle is an individual who is willing to sell said technology for his own personal gain and Spike makes sense as the buyer since he has access to resources to pay Swindle and use the technology to defend both America and the planet. But, even with that, there is also reason enough to keep such a deal secret. If Jazz blew the whistle on the whole thing then it makes sense Spike would run to avoid going down for his actions.

And yeah, Spike COULD take out a TF with some common household acids, but that's not really effective on a large scale now is it? Unless Sparky, you're suggesting that Spike could simply arm all of Skywatch with acid guns? They would have to develop the tech for that and why waste the time when you can just buy weapons that are effective?

[Sparky Prime]

Jazz went to the media. At that point, somebody is going down.

Jazz said Spike was a fugitive before he went to the media about it. And Spike wouldn't have known he would go to the media. The point of going to the media was to prevent the government from just denying everything and covering the whole mess up. Jazz wanted the public to know who exactly destroyed relations, and this time it wasn't the Cybertronians.

And, a desire to kill the giant alien robots would make people less concerned about exactly where the very effective weapons were coming from.

Weapons from a source they don't/can't trust makes those weapons risky to use at best. The source matters.

Spike taking out Scrapper was impressive, even if we assume that the acid was Cybertronian. But, it was not very stealthy or efficient.

Spike said he made that acid from common chemicals anyone would have in their kitchen. And it was efficient enough all things considered.

-Costa is assuming people have enough grounding to get this.

After taking a leap away from logic.

[Mako Crab]

There is plenty of set-up for it. We know that the humans are using Cybertronian tech.

Not good enough. It was established in AHM that humans had reverse-engineered Cybertronian tech. Why would they stop after AHM? I had always assumed that all of Skywatch's tech was simply derived from their R & D, not bought from an outside source. If anyone made mention of Skywatch's tech being suspiciously Cybertronian, it was never followed up on. This was a non-issue.

And even in that event, not once anywhere was it even suggested that Spike personally was buying alien tech from anyone until the very last issue when it was necessary to wrap up the plot. A little foreshadowing goes a long ways.

[Sparky Prime]

I'm just gonna wheigh in here and say that if alien robots are wiping out my planet and I have chance to buy the weapons they use, I'm gonna do it, regardless of who I'm buying them from.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see that being a logical possibility. If you're getting the tech from the same alien robots that are destroying your planet, that raises all kinds of red flags. You wouldn't be able to trust the seller, so why trust the tech they're selling you?

And yeah, Spike COULD take out a TF with some common household acids, but that's not really effective on a large scale now is it? Unless Sparky, you're suggesting that Spike could simply arm all of Skywatch with acid guns? They would have to develop the tech for that and why waste the time when you can just buy weapons that are effective?

It would take time of them to learn and train soldiers with the mech suits and weapons anyway... But no, what I'm really suggesting here is that there are alternatives that don't involve buying weapons from a source they cannot trust.

[Shockwave]

I'm just gonna wheigh in here and say that if alien robots are wiping out my planet and I have chance to buy the weapons they use, I'm gonna do it, regardless of who I'm buying them from.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see that being a logical possibility. If you're getting the tech from the same alien robots that are destroying your planet, that raises all kinds of red flags. You wouldn't be able to trust the seller, so why trust the tech they're selling you?

That's a complete misnomer. I don't trust used car dealers either, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one. That's why you test it first. The same would have to be assumed of the weapons deal with Swindle.

And yeah, Spike COULD take out a TF with some common household acids, but that's not really effective on a large scale now is it? Unless Sparky, you're suggesting that Spike could simply arm all of Skywatch with acid guns? They would have to develop the tech for that and why waste the time when you can just buy weapons that are effective?

It would take time of them to learn and train soldiers with the mech suits and weapons anyway... But no, what I'm really suggesting here is that there are alternatives that don't involve buying weapons from a source they cannot trust.

And to build off of what I said above, trust is irrelevant to the transaction. As long as the merchandise was tested and later paid for, both parties walk away satisfied regardless of whether or not they trust each other.

[Sparky Prime]

That's a complete misnomer. I don't trust used car dealers either, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one. That's why you test it first. The same would have to be assumed of the weapons deal with Swindle.

I don't see how it's a misnomer at all, when the Decepticons tried to destroy humanity and devastated the entire planet in the process. It's clear the Transformers are a real threat. That's not exactly something you have to worry about from a used car dealer. They might try to sell you a lemon, but at least they wont try to kill you. You can't just assume the same would be true with Swindle, especially after the events of AHM.

And to build off of what I said above, trust is irrelevant to the transaction. As long as the merchandise was tested and later paid for, both parties walk away satisfied regardless of whether or not they trust each other.

Even after a 'test drive', there is no guarantee it wont just break down or blow up in your face the next day. Ideally you'd want a mechanic check it out to make sure it's actually in good condition. But otherwise you're basically taking the sellers word for it. And if you can't trust that seller, then there is no telling what kind of trouble you'd be getting yourself into. Hence, trust is totally relevant to the transaction.

[Onslaught Six]

Sure is naive in here.

War is war. People do underhanded deals all the time with people they can't be seen doing deals with, because they have things that those people need.

Ever see a movie called Lord of War? Nicholas Cage and Jared Leto are in it. Cage is an illegal arms dealer and basically spend the whole movie making a lot of money and running away from Ethan Hawke who works for the CIA or the ATF or something. At the end Ethan Hawke catches Nick Cage and Nick Cage is all, "Well, good job, sport, but I'll tell you what's going to happen: In about two minutes a general will walk in here, tell you you're an awesome dude, and you'll probably get a medal and a bigass promotion and everything. But I won't do one second of jail time. Because some of the dudes I sell guns to are the enemies of 'your' enemies. And sometimes it's embarassing for the President to have his fingerprints all over the guns. Sometimes he needs a guy like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying."

I mean, wars are created more often now to cause commerce than they are to settle beliefs about men in the sky or justice in foreign countries. Swindle saw an opportunity--a guy who hated Transformers and would do anything to help destroy them. And who better to help him than someone who 'is' a Transformer? He'd know more about them than Spike would. And Swindle's a smart talker; he can probably bullshit Spike into believing anything. And Spike probably did have his own plan--use the tech until he didn't need Swindle anymore, and then turn on him.

As for this being "believable" or having anything "lead up" to it--what's the deal, dude? The weapons had to come from somewhere. Is there something *wrong* with a plot twist that didn't have ten months of EPIC OMG FORESHADOWING? I mean, many of us were outright complaining a couple weeks ago because The Death Of Optimus Prime was outright stated to happen and everything--a bunch of us saying, "Man, I wish comics would surprise me once in a while instead of this shit." Then Costa drops this on us. "Man, why wasn't this lead up to and foreshadowed?"

I also think a lot of this is some of you might still be thinking of Spike as 'Spike,' when the fact is that as of AHM he's a totally different character. It'd be like complaining that Megatron and Galvatron are different guys at this point.