We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[Shockwave]

Thing is Dom that your argument assumes that kids are stupid and don't know what toys they're looking for or want. I always hate this argument because it assumes that kids aren't collectors when in fact they are. It also assumes that the kid is going to destroy the thing the instant he gets it. Both of which is bullshit. When I was a kid and I wanted Skywarp I would have been pissed if someone had given me Starscream instead. Or worse, leader-1, thinking "well he could have any jet robot to fill that spot in his play time" No I fucking couldn't! Leader-1 is not Skywarp. Skywarp is Skywarp. Leader-1 wasn't even a fucking Transformer! When I grew up playing with and collecting toys, I wanted specific toys, not just whatever jet robot toy was available. I mean, comparing Wreck Gar to Chopsaw is just an assanine argument to make. How do you know little Timmy doesn't have Perceptor and is looking for Wreck Gar because he saw it available on the back and wants to own it? Now imagine the Cartmanesque rampage little Timmy is going to go on when he asks for Wreck Gar and gets fucking Chopsaw. They're not even the same allegiance! C'mon Dom, cast your mind back to when you were that age (we'll say Timmy to be around 10ish) and tell me YOU wouldn't have noticed! In fact, I'm thoroughly convinced that the only reason I have an obsession with Diaclone blue Bluestreak is because of the fact that the toy on the outside of the box didn't match the color of the toy on the inside and I've been trying to reconcile it ever since. And in the case of Animated jet twins I actually gave them to the child of a co worker. Her son, at 3 years old, was looking for them specifically. I opened mine, transformed them, hated them and decided to give them to her so that she could give them to her kid. So in that scenario we actually have toys that were in the hands of a collector that wound up in that hands of a kid.

Shockwave
-Figures Dom is probably twitching from that last comment.

[BWprowl]

Zobovor's scenario ignores O6 and Dom, two adult collectors who would have purchased the figure in question, but cannot because the kid has it. Yes, successfully scalping involves depriving somebody of a toy. But, so does collecting. I bought Lugnut and Deepdive on Friday. Part of me wanted to wait until today, (when it would have been easier to deal with them), but I did not want to on the basis that somebody (kid or adult) would likely have purchased them over the weekend.

At least when a scalper buys something, collectors have a second (if expensive) chance at the figures they want.

Yeah, but the point you're missing is that there are a finite amount of figures no matter what the scenario. Removing scalpers from the pool not only eliminates one group that's buying the desirable figures in question, it eliminates a group whose purpose is to buy ALL the desirable figures in question. If there are four Wreck-Gars on the pegs at Target, and Mike, Dom, and O6 all go there and buy one, then there's still one Wreck-Gar on the pegs for me or Little Timmy, depending on if I feel like swinging by after work or not. If ONE scalper gets there though, then ALL of the Wreck-Gars are gone instantly (plus the Jazzes, the Trackses, the Laser Primes, the Perceptors...), and neither Mike, Dom, O6, Prowl, nor Timmy get the Wreck-Gar they want, unless they feel like dropping twenty-thirty-five bucks plus shipping on him. THAT'S the point you're missing here Dom: One kid may make it so one collector can't get one figure (unless they, say, drive to a different store), but one scalper makes it so NO ONE can get ANY of the figures.

What BBTS does isn't scalping, by the way. I got Wheeljack/Thundercracker/Warpath for MSRP plus shipping. That is not scalping.

PS, why can't you drive, Dom? Not trying to argue about this one or anything, I'm just genuinely wondering.

[Onslaught Six]

What BBTS does isn't scalping, by the way. I got Wheeljack/Thundercracker/Warpath for MSRP plus shipping. That is not scalping.

That's different from the MOTU Classics situation--in that case, they order the case from Hasbro, and it fucking arrives. They're a retailer, in that case, they just buy it directly from Hasbro. With the MOTU Classics, though, those are 'only' available at Mattycollector's site. So BBTS actually has to order them like anybody else, and sell them on their site (presumably for an inflated price)--which, in internet terms, is the exact same thing as brick and mortar scalping. Buying them from a public outlet and later selling them at a markup. I don't fault BBTS for this, though--they're a retailer, a business. They see a capitalistic opportunity and exploit it. This is America, if you don't make money you're a fuckin' douchebag.

PS, why can't you drive, Dom? Not trying to argue about this one or anything, I'm just genuinely wondering.

I assume, for Dom, the economics of driving in the city (gas, parking fees, upkeep on the vehicle, etc.) aren't really compatible with his level of income--it's cheaper for him to walk and take public transportation.

[Dominic]

I always hate this argument because it assumes that kids aren't collectors when in fact they are. It also assumes that the kid is going to destroy the thing the instant he gets it. Both of which is bullshit.

This could be argued either way. I have known kids who want specific figures and who take care of their toys, (or who do one or the other), and kids who do not care and break their toys, (or only do one or the other). (For those wondering, I was brand/character focused as a kid, but fewer of my toys survived those years than you might think.)

But, if we assume that kids are the majority of the market, then we can assume that they are buying most of the toys.

I would also guess that they are more focused on movie toys.

C'mon Dom, cast your mind back to when you were that age (we'll say Timmy to be around 10ish) and tell me YOU wouldn't have noticed!

At 10, would have wanted the characters I knew. A 10 year old is more likely to know Wreck-gar from that RTS pack-in comic, if they even recognize him that much. Yes, the kid will recognize different toys or characters or factions, (maybe even different settings). But, figures that call back to a 25 year old movie are not going to have built in kid appeal.

A kid is as likely to want Deepdive, (a potential sink/tub/pool toy), as he is to want Thundercracker.

I'm thoroughly convinced that the only reason I have an obsession with Diaclone blue Bluestreak is because of the fact that the toy on the outside of the box didn't match the color of the toy on the inside and I've been trying to reconcile it ever since.

Join the club.

Shockwave
-Figures Dom is probably twitching from that last comment.

A bit. On the other hand, I recall those being fairly common. (I skipped over them several times, and do not recall scarcity being an issue when I led a friend to them.)

But, there is the fact that toys kids buy are likely to be permanently removed from the pool.

Collectors occassionally purge, releasing toys back on to the market. Scalpers, as I mentioned above, offer a second chance to buy toys that a collector may have missed.

But, a kid is probably going to take the toy and ruin it. Can you imagine a TFU Prowl in the hands of a kid. The gun would be lost, the paint is easy enough to scrape in the first place, and the side panels would probably be missing. A kid buying a toy is *more* likely to deprive somebody of a figure than a collector.

PS, why can't you drive, Dom? Not trying to argue about this one or anything, I'm just genuinely wondering.

o6 is partly right. For a time, I never had the right mix of income, time and inclination. In '03, I got a learner's permit, in preparation for attending a remote college. I never ended up going, because it was actually a better move to go to a closer college. That was the year of me barely sleeping or eating. (Ask Honeybear about the decision I almost made about my left foot!)

Then in '05, my eyes went bad. I could probably swing a license. But, with my eyes, driving would be unconscionably dangerous.

They see a capitalistic opportunity and exploit it. This is America, if you don't make money you're a fuckin' douchebag.

Uh, making money is a necessity. Yeah, they are acting rationally. What is wrong with that?



Dom
-has known scalpers who pay their bills by....scalping.

[Ursus mellifera]

But, if we assume that kids are the majority of the market, then we can assume that they are buying most of the toys.

Are we assuming that?

A kid is as likely to want Deepdive, (a potential sink/tub/pool toy), as he is to want Thundercracker.

Really? Also, he floats? Because that's kind of cool.

But, a kid is probably going to take the toy and ruin it. Can you imagine a TFU Prowl in the hands of a kid. The gun would be lost, the paint is easy enough to scrape in the first place, and the side panels would probably be missing. A kid buying a toy is *more* likely to deprive somebody of a figure than a collector.

I...really don't know what to say.

(Ask Honeybear about the decision I almost made about my left foot!)

He wasn't making much sense back then. Much like in this thread.

Dom
-has known scalpers who pay their bills by....scalping.

Telemarketers pay their bills by telemarketing, but you still hate them, and blow airhorns at them through the phone.

[Dominic]

Are we assuming that?

The conventional, and not wholly unreasonable, assumption is that the toy market is still driven primarily by kids and casual collectors. This is why Hasbro constantly markets Bumblebee, especially as related to the movie line.

Really? Also, he floats? Because that's kind of cool.

Deepdive does not, (to my knowledge), float. But, the robot mode is assumed to be made to function underwater, (as evidenced by the flippers on the robot mode's feet), so floating is not a necessity.

I...really don't know what to say.

Yeah, it is pretty horrifying what kids do to their toys.

He wasn't making much sense back then. Much like in this thread.

Please elaborate. I stand my my calculation then and my opinion now.

Telemarketers pay their bills by telemarketing, but you still hate them, and blow airhorns at them through the phone.

Only a few times, and not really since my face turn. Now, at worst, I just hang up on them. I sometimes even try to be polite to them.

Even so, telemarketers are more intrusive than scalpers. (A scalper does not make your phone ring and disrupt your "you time".)


Dom
-is not against kids having toys, just against kids wrecking the good ones.

[Ursus mellifera]

*bows politely out*

[Shockwave]

Dom, the point you're missing here is that the scalper provides the second chance by creating the need for it in the first place. And collectors are no better than kids with their toys. When I was a kid, I kept all of mine in perfect shape and didn't lose missiles, guns, fists, nothing. Now as an adult collector, some of my toys wind up with damage in spite of trying to keep them in decent shape (my unaltered Universe Bluestreak has severe paint scraping on the doors). Then there's also customizing. A collector that buys a toy for customizing just as effectively removes that toy from the pool as a kid would. A toy bought by a collector is no more guaranteed to stay in decent shape than one bought by a kid, especially in the case of customizing because then the original toy is effectively destroyed. Besides, parents make their kids purge their collections all the time (which is why I don't still have my G1 bots) so those are gonna be just as likely to end up back on the market at some point as well.

[BWprowl]

Dom, the point you're missing here is that the scalper provides the second chance by creating the need for it in the first place.

This is all I've been saying. Dom seems to think that scalpers just magically come into the big cases of rare toys that they sell back to the fans for a tidy profit. Honestly, it's not the selling that pisses me off about scalpers, it's the buying every desirable toy in the tri-county area that upsets me. I dunno, Shockwave, you and I both know we come from high-scalper-density areas and we're all too familiar with the frustration of dealing with that situation. Maybe Dom's are just isn't as affected by the issue, and that's why he can't get the problem we're trying to explain here. Dom, you know how you said a while back that Animated Arcee was plentiful at the stores in your area? Well where I live, I saw her *once*. The time I bought her. And it wasn't just me. People on /toy/ for example, were going crazy trying to spot this figure, only to be disheartened by other collectors talking about seeing guys walking out of TRU with multiple bags of nothing but Arcee. *That* is a problem, and that's why Shockwave and others and I are trying to explain to you what a problem it is.

[Onslaught Six]

'Yes.'

Dom's argument boils down to, "Collectors are doing you a service by buying the toy you want and selling it back to you for twice what you would have paid for it in the store."

If they didn't fucking buy it in the first place, then I could have gotten it at the store for what I regularly paid.

And so what if a kid got it instead? Better him than a scalper. Better him than me.

Because I'd rather see these things played with by their target audience than have some lazy-ass adult collector who mismanages his income (i.e. me) buy it, transform it twice, and put it on a shelf forever.

The fact is, yes, there's a finite number of these toys in existance--but they're all 'out there.' None of them are particularly hard to find, either--I can regularly find Classics Skywarp on eBay, and he is a "rare" toy. He's not really "rare," it's just that everybody who actually wanted him has him (except me, because I'm a fucking idiot in 2006) so the number of them in the wild is decreased, and they're regularly going for upwards of a hundred bucks. But if you have that level of income, then sure, you can get him. He's out there; it's not like he's impossible to find.